2019-20 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[el henry]

I don’t understand comments like this. If competitive figure skating were intended to be purely athletic, there would be no need for music, costumes, or programs - we could just have a series of skills in rotation - everybody do their quad, everybody do their sit spin, everybody do their 3A, judges weigh difficulty and execution for each move, and voila - add up the points and there’s your winner. Personally, I can’t imagine anything more boring.

I also think you underestimate the athleticism required to perform in shows and exhibitions.

:agree::agree::agree:

Athleticism is not restricted to revolutions in the air. Far from it. And it is not even the highest and best form of athleticism in figure skating. And it is not simply execution of elements. Be they Russian ladies, American men, or any other discipline.

Wow, would that be, for me, one boring comp.....

 

[Jontor]

I totally agree with Skater Boy here. I was honestly shocked at how bad Evgenia's SS are (or rather: I always was, but now I'm shocked that she still hasn't gotten better).

I have no idea where people see improvement, I guess it's just wishful thinking or based on reputation since she's with Orser now. Her crossovers are atrocious (still looking like a pecking bird), her edges are often unclear and her turns are laboured and lack flow. Just look at the jerky way she swings her free leg around to propel herself across the ice, it looks horrible. Some of her twizzles also look jerky and she's bobbing too much up and down.
I guess her speed might have improved, not sure, I've never followed her closely and it's impossible to tell from a video anyway.

I also don't see any wonderful artistry in her skating. I can definitely see that she's making an effort, I just don't feel that the execution is that convincing.

One part of her SP that stood out to me in particular, was the second half of her step sequence.
The music is very slow and peaceful, but we see her doing a fast twizzle, an illusion, some sort of a hectic exit, a few steps later a frantic outside loop followed by an equally jerky looking pivot. She doesn't capture the calmness and gentle mood of the music at all.
Part of it is the choreographer's fault of course. But she could certainly take her time to prolong the loop and pivot, make them slow and controlled instead of rushing them so much. Add a delay to the twizzle and find another spot for the illusion, if it absolutely needs to be there to check off the body moves level requirement (pretty sure she could do something else though and still get it).

I so agree with everything here. I am very confused when people say Zhenya has progressed, because I think it is the other way around. She is regressing imo.
I am no expert, but to me it seems like she is slow and drags her legs across the ice. Maybe she need to work out more and build more leg muscles. Kaetlyn Osmond did after that horrible accident and she was stronger than ever winning the World title and Olympic bronze. With Zhenya, I see no strength at all though she is a fighter at heart.

As for the artistry, I've never been a fan, and I certainly don't see any improvements there either.

I will be very surprised if she manages to make the GPF, Europeans or Worlds this year. I just don't see it happen. But we will see.

 

[NoviceFan]

i so agree with everything here. I am very confused when people say zhenya has progressed, because i think it is the other way around. she is regressing imo.
I am no expert, but to me it seems like she is slow and drags her legs across the ice. Maybe she need to work out more and build more leg muscles. Kaetlyn osmond did after that horrible accident and she was stronger than ever winning the world title and olympic bronze. With zhenya, i see no strength at all though she is a fighter at heart.

As for the artistry, i've never been a fan, and i certainly don't see any improvements there either.

I will be very surprised if she manages to make the gpf, europeans or worlds this year. I just don't see it happen. But we will see.

LOL.

Sure.

 

[fabienne1996]

I so agree with everything here. I am very confused when people say Zhenya has progressed, because I think it is the other way around. She is regressing imo.
I am no expert, but to me it seems like she is slow and drags her legs across the ice. Maybe she need to work out more and build more leg muscles. Kaetlyn Osmond did after that horrible accident and she was stronger than ever winning the World title and Olympic bronze. With Zhenya, I see no strength at all though she is a fighter at heart.

As for the artistry, I've never been a fan, and I certainly don't see any improvements there either.

I will be very surprised if she manages to make the GPF, Europeans or Worlds this year. I just don't see it happen. But we will see.

Where is she slow? She is smoother and faster than last year. Are you all watching someone else? Because I do not see what you see. She is not slow not at all

 

[fabienne1996]

I so agree with everything here. I am very confused when people say Zhenya has progressed, because I think it is the other way around. She is regressing imo.
I am no expert, but to me it seems like she is slow and drags her legs across the ice. Maybe she need to work out more and build more leg muscles. Kaetlyn Osmond did after that horrible accident and she was stronger than ever winning the World title and Olympic bronze. With Zhenya, I see no strength at all though she is a fighter at heart.

As for the artistry, I've never been a fan, and I certainly don't see any improvements there either.

I will be very surprised if she manages to make the GPF, Europeans or Worlds this year. I just don't see it happen. But we will see.

I think she has more muscles than she ever had while training under eteri, I think you either do not want to see it or you are not really looking.

 

[thatbeatingheart]

:agree::agree::agree:

Athleticism is not restricted to revolutions in the air. Far from it. And it is not even the highest and best form of athleticism in figure skating. And it is not simply execution of elements. Be they Russian ladies, American men, or any other discipline.

Wow, would that be, for me, one boring comp.....

I agree, I can't believe there are actually talks about changing SP and FS to a technical program and an artistic program, that would be the most boring thing ever (both parts). What's great about figure skating is the combination of both.

 

[[email protected]]

In the afternoon they started to sell tickets to ladies free program. So, everything is in order - I am going to Krasnoyarsk! I bought tickets for my wife as well but it looks like she is not enthuastic about 5 hour flight to Siberia right before the New Year.

 

[annajzdf]

We all have our likes and dislikes, but your criticism of Evgenia is pretty over the top.

Given that there were other ladies at the test skates with worse skating skills and crossovers, it’s a bit surprising, to say the least, that it’s Evgenia’s “bad” skating skills you chose to criticize, and her crossovers you chose to call “atrocious.” Are her skating skills perfect? Absolutely not. But the fact you can’t see any improvement at all - and your suggestion that it’s all down to “wishful thinking” or “Orser’s reputation” - suggests a certain lack of objectivity on your part.

For what it's worth, I find the praise of some posters on these boards pretty over the top too.

Meanwhile, I never said, that the other russians' skating is without flaws.

Sofia and Elizaveta don't get the high PCS that Evgenia does, though. And it's generally accepted and has already been mentioned in this thread multiple times too, that they're weak in that area, so why bother mention it again?
Contrary to this, several posters have said, that they feel Evgenia has improved her skating and only few have denied that, so it makes sense to voice another opposing viewpoint, to show that not everyone agrees with this.

Also: Really? Should I expect the same level of skating skills and compare skaters that are 4-5 years younger and starting their first senior season, to a two-time world champion with years worth of more experience, who's left their camp and changed coaches to work specifically (amongst other things of course) on her skating skills, because that's what TCC is kind of renowned for (again, amongst other things)?
And when I point out, that this exact reputation of TCC could have an effect on how people assess Evgenia's skating (that's kinda how reputation works after all), you call this a lack of objectivity on my part?

Similarly, the fact that you find her “artistry” lacking, and that although you can “see that she’s making an effort” you “just don’t feel that the execution is that convincing” suggests that the problem may lie more within you than with anything she’s doing.

Yes, I think I made it pretty clear that this is my personal opinion, by using such phrases as "I don't feel..." or "I don't see...".

Not sure why you think the way I feel about Evgenia's artistic capabilities is 'a problem' within me. I certainly don't go around telling those who have a different opinion than me, that there's something wrong with their taste or perception (i.e. bias at play) when the topic is something as subjective as 'artistry'.

Also, it is not my job to accommodate my perception to whatever the skater or any of their fans want me to see or feel. It is the job of the performer to be effective in their portrayal and to ideally, convince as many people as possible with their performance.

You and others may object to the harsh words I used, but I'm not just spewing hatred or negativity. I did make the effort to give one specific and rather elaborate example of what's bothering me and how I believe it could be improved. Pretty sure that counts as constructive criticism.

 

[nussnacker]

I don’t understand comments like this. If competitive figure skating were intended to be purely athletic, there would be no need for music, costumes, or programs - we could just have a series of skills in rotation - everybody do their quad, everybody do their sit spin, everybody do their 3A, judges weigh difficulty and execution for each move, and voila - add up the points and there’s your winner. Personally, I can’t imagine anything more boring.

I also think you underestimate the athleticism required to perform in shows and exhibitions.

Notice how silveruskate did not say "purely athletic", he/she said "the technical side must be the most important".
It's just about what should be prioritized in the competitive sport, artistic or technical side?
I certainly think that athletic side should be of higher importance too, otherwise there will be even less of a sport in this sport. We can talk about balance and all as much as you want, the point is that the non-athletic side probably should not be a deciding factor in a competitive olympic level sport.

 

[silveruskate]

I don’t understand comments like this. If competitive figure skating were intended to be purely athletic, there would be no need for music, costumes, or programs - we could just have a series of skills in rotation - everybody do their quad, everybody do their sit spin, everybody do their 3A, judges weigh difficulty and execution for each move, and voila - add up the points and there’s your winner. Personally, I can’t imagine anything more boring.

I also think you underestimate the athleticism required to perform in shows and exhibitions.

But you are talking like it is not rewarded which it is. I only said the technical side is supposed to be more important so we shouldn't cry about it. There will be situations where someone better in technical and weaker in presentation will win the competition and there is nothing wrong about it.

Also, I'm just speaking in response to the poster that registered dislike for the athletic side, not saying shows/exhibitions are not athletic..just the term the other poster used.

 

[Jontor]

Notice how silveruskate did not say "purely athletic", he/she said "the technical side must be the most important".
It's just about what should be prioritized in the competitive sport, artistic or technical side?
I certainly think that athletic side should be of higher importance too, otherwise there will be even less of a sport in this sport. We can talk about balance and all as much as you want, the point is that the non-athletic side probably should not be a deciding factor in a competitive olympic level sport.

But, now when the TES scores for ladies have evolved, isn't there a chance that ISU will adjust the factoring of the PCS scores so they are more fifty-fifty?

 

[fabienne1996]

But you are talking like it is not rewarded which it is. I only said the technical side is supposed to be more important so we shouldn't cry about it. There will be situations where someone better in technical and weaker in presentation will win the competition and there is nothing wrong about it.

Also, I'm just speaking in response to the poster that registered dislike for the athletic side, not saying shows/exhibitions are not athletic..just the term the other poster used.

Well for me personally I find the artistic side more important or at least it should really be 50 /50 which it isn't. I do not enjoy watching programms that are just full of technical things but almost no artistry. For me it's not something that gets a hold of me and makes me watch it, for me the skaters who show more artistry touch me and make me want to watch them skate

 

[nussnacker]

Well for me personally I find the artistic side more important or at least it should really be 50 /50 which it isn't. I do not enjoy watching programms that are just full of technical things but almost no artistry. For me it's not something that gets a hold of me and makes me watch it, for me the skaters who show more artistry touch me and make me want to watch them skate

But this was not about personal tastes, frankly has nothing to do with it.
The question is not about what you personally or any other individual personally enjoys.
It’s about what makes this sport a competitive Olympic sport. Does artistry make it a sport? Or does athletic side of it make it a sport?
Probably the latter, since athletics and sport are essentially synonymous. Hence, remarks that the athletic side of the sport should not be prevailing/ disliked are a little strange to me.

 

[Orlov]

In the afternoon they started to sell tickets to ladies free program. So, everything is in order - I am going to Krasnoyarsk! I bought tickets for my wife as well but it looks like she is not enthuastic about 5 hour flight to Siberia right before the New Year.

You will be our correspondent

 

[NoviceFan]

I have no idea where people see improvement, I guess it's just wishful thinking or based on reputation since she's with Orser now. ... I've never followed her closely and it's impossible to tell from a video anyway...

How can you have such sweeping judgments about whether someone (or something) has improved at all if you admit you never followed him/her (or it) closely?

For example, I can say, I don't care about Trusova's performance despite her quads, but I can't really say that I do not think Trusova has improved in any aspects of her skating, because, well, I do not follow her closely enough to know that she didn't.

 

[Edwin]

In the afternoon they started to sell tickets to ladies free program. So, everything is in order - I am going to Krasnoyarsk! I bought tickets for my wife as well but it looks like she is not enthuastic about 5 hour flight to Siberia right before the New Year.

And it will be cold already. Shortly before Universiade it was like -40C often.

 

[thatbeatingheart]

Regarding Sasha's artistry (I think that's where the current discussion started?): To me it feels like her only mode is "fierce" which I like a lot but her music sometimes requires different interpretation that just isn't there. YET. People seem to forget that she's only 15. We're being spoilt by skaters like Aliona for example but I dare to assume that most skaters who are/were praised for their artistry weren't that awesome at this age. I can't imagine how difficult it must be to portray a character while doing such crazy difficult things but I'm sure she'll master it in the coming years. :agree2:

 

[zounger]

Regarding Sasha's artistry (I think that's where the current discussion started?): To me it feels like her only mode is "fierce"

I think she is doing fine with various interpretations even if it is Big spender or Vivaldi or fifth element or her current programs. At least I don't see her lucking significantly in that aspect so that to be disturbing and when watching her, the first thing to come to my mind to be how bad she is in artistry. In the third, fourth level of criticism yes we can start talking about some stuff. But this are something we can start talk for other top-level skaters even at the second level.

By the way, I find her SS just fine.

 

[Edwin]

I think she is doing fine with various interpretations even if it is Big spender or Vivaldi or fifth element or her current programs. At least I don't see her lucking significantly in that aspect so that to be disturbing and when watching her, the first thing to come to my mind to be how bad she is in artistry. In the third, fourth level of criticism yes we can start talking about some stuff. But this are something we can start talk for other top-level skaters even at the second level.

Gleikhengauz and Tutberidze stage the images that they think suits their skaters best, according to their characters. If Trusova really wants to tear all competition apart, give her this powerful projection in her routine.
Once she herself grows tired of this image, she will ask for something different and the team will provide it for her.
In each and every interview any of the Khrustalniy skaters said they like the image they agreed upon and enjoy peforming it. No doubt finding small revisions by themselves that will be evaluated and incorporated once the season progresses.
At the moment Aleksandra spends a lot of time sliding 'empty handed' between her quads. Some choreo can be put in there once the layout of quads over her program is firm.
I think we can expect every free program of Aleksandra to be slightly different, and probably these from the other skaters too. Those choreographers never rest, who knows what tips the other qualified staff members still might give?

 

[thatbeatingheart]

I think she is doing fine with various interpretations even if it is Big spender or Vivaldi or fifth element or her current programs. At least I don't see her lucking significantly in that aspect so that to be disturbing and when watching her, the first thing to come to my mind to be how bad she is in artistry. In the third, fourth level of criticism yes we can start talking about some stuff. But this are something we can start talk for other top-level skaters even at the second level.

By the way, I find her SS just fine.

Yeah it doesn't bother me significantly either, it's just something she could improve if she wanted to. It's not like she needs it with her technical score and the PCS she'll most likely get (whether they're appropriate or not), but obviously I hope she'll do.