Lovers of Ballet: Happy or unhappy when ballet music is used in figure skating?
- Thread starter morninglight
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- Joined
- Aug 19, 2003
Sigh...if only I could be there! Oh man, you are making me drool...
Joe, I know we will probably never agree on anything that has to with Michelle Kwan, but I do think that you and I have finally found something that we have in common, LOL !!!
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- Jul 11, 2003
nubka - If you are in the NYC area, let me know. Dress Rehersals are not the best way to see a ballet especially with ABT because they are constantly correcting the corp des ballets. ABT has a big corps turnover every year, and they have to rehash everything. But it is interesting from how a production gets the final touch.
As for Michelle, I do not associate ballet and figure skating in the same breath. For me, they are completely different. Michelle is not a ballerina. She is, imo, the best figure skater. She and Kurt are the living best figure skaters. I would like Pairs more if they would cut out those acrobactic lifts. I want more rapport between the skaters.
Figure skating, in recent years, has come from ballet-like to acrobatic-like. On this board, I believe the majority of fans like the acrobatics. I don't. JMO.
Joe
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2003
Here's a thought: how about Beblin & Agosto skating to the Agon pas de deux, or the sanguinic section of The Four Temperaments (in leotards, of course.) Now that would be something to see !! I'm not convinced that they could pull it off (I wonder who could...??)
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2003
I understand completely about the comparisons. My point was that The Kween is simply is skater that we will never see eye to eye on. But hey, you and I will always have Balanchine, right?? (LOL!)
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- Sep 10, 2005
Uh, just no. Ice dance is based off ballroom, which is NOT BALLET. Yes, you can have balletic elements in ballroom, but it's a whole different style. (Ben has actually done ballroom back when he was in Chicago--you can see it in his lines.) Not to mention that ballet music is specifically prohibited--it would have to be an exhibition. If anything, there should be more relating between partners with a ballroom basis than ballet, as at its core it's about a couple, while ballet can be about one or three or twelve or just a bunch of figures on stage doing things to music without interrelating.
Besides, I really don't want to give Igor yet ANOTHER excuse to basically have Ben present Tanith like "Here she is, ain't she lovely, folks?" A Balanchine pas de deux is all about the girl.
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- Aug 19, 2003
Geez, I wasn't serious, just having fun with the idea and this thread...
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- Jul 11, 2003
I reiterate: Ballet-like skating is less important than Acrobatic-like skating. Not my wishes. Just read the posts in the forums.
Melissa and Denis used Prokoviev R&J ballet music; T&M used Puccini Tosca opera music, and there were two couples who danced(?) to the ballet music in the opera of Prince Igor I believe the Free Dance allows anything goes, especially 'Variations on Shoot the Duck'.
The Original Dance, however, I believe is supposed to be a ballroom dance on ice.
Joe
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Melissa and Denis used Prokoviev R&J ballet music; T&M used Puccini Tosca opera music, and there were two couples who danced(?) to the ballet music in the opera of Prince Igor I believe the Free Dance allows anything goes, especially 'Variations on Shoot the Duck'.
The Original Dance, however, I believe is supposed to be a ballroom dance on ice.
Joe
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No it isn't.
There was a time, during the mid-90s at least, when the rules for ice dance music specified that IF the music was originally written for the stage it had to be orchestrated in such a way as to be suitable for the ballroom. But, for example, there are plenty of waltzes that were written for ballets that would have been perfectly legal for free dances in those years, and even for the original dance when the required rhythm was a waltz.
There's no longer any such restriction. The current rules require that
Nothing there that would rule out ballet music per se, and most ballet music would fit those requirements just fine.
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2003
Thanks for posting Yukina's video
IMO she's the ONLY female singles skater since Baiul that has done ballet justice. It's really more than just flexibility and stretch. I hope she keeps on competing next season!
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- Jul 11, 2003
I've been singing the praises of Ota for some years now. Her presentations were exquisite. Nowadays she needs a 3A. Just read the demand in the forums for 3As. Probably the most talked about jump in this forum whether it is ladies or men.
As for Oksana, I thought her Odette/Odile was cutsey wootsey. She did have a high lutz jump. One doesn't see lutzes in ballet; one doesn't see real toe work in figure skating.
Joe
As for Oksana, I thought her Odette/Odile was cutsey wootsey. She did have a high lutz jump. One doesn't see lutzes in ballet; one doesn't see real toe work in figure skating.
Joe
Actually, I will be going to see ABT on May 19th-La Bayadere! That's my Mother's Day present from my darling daughter-an ex ballerina herself. Alissa Ciszny's short (I think) was to Bayadere last year, and it was the skate that made me fall in love with her skating! Bayadere is my absolute favorite ballet-what a soap opera of a story! And it's cram-packed with glorious music all the way through-good skating music!
I heartily agree about Giselle....I love Giselle but not for skating-too many starts and stops I think. I like Emily's Sylvia. I'd love to see someone skate to the Diana and Acteon pas. Somehow, the various Carmen interpretations don't bother me....that music suits just about everybody if they work on it!
Baryshnikov...well-what can you expect when he's confronted with a gloriously larger woman and he's only 5'6"? A great classical dancer, but too short to play the Prince, in my mind. We in the West worshipped him because so few others could do what he did physically and artistically at that point in time and we hungered for another Nureyev (whom I worship-to me he will always be the most beautiful man who ever lived).....I have read many times that when Baryshnikov first came to the West, he went to Balanchine and took one class. He left it, saying, "That man will kill me." Or some such. I believe it was a typical Russian comment on Balanchine technique.....not any more difficult but much different on the body.....Oh, and Baryshnikov also got rid of the fabulous Sasha Goudonov....and yep-he was six feet! Now THERE was a Prince!
Just my own humble opinions....I could go on forever about ballet!
I heartily agree about Giselle....I love Giselle but not for skating-too many starts and stops I think. I like Emily's Sylvia. I'd love to see someone skate to the Diana and Acteon pas. Somehow, the various Carmen interpretations don't bother me....that music suits just about everybody if they work on it!
Baryshnikov...well-what can you expect when he's confronted with a gloriously larger woman and he's only 5'6"? A great classical dancer, but too short to play the Prince, in my mind. We in the West worshipped him because so few others could do what he did physically and artistically at that point in time and we hungered for another Nureyev (whom I worship-to me he will always be the most beautiful man who ever lived).....I have read many times that when Baryshnikov first came to the West, he went to Balanchine and took one class. He left it, saying, "That man will kill me." Or some such. I believe it was a typical Russian comment on Balanchine technique.....not any more difficult but much different on the body.....Oh, and Baryshnikov also got rid of the fabulous Sasha Goudonov....and yep-he was six feet! Now THERE was a Prince!
Just my own humble opinions....I could go on forever about ballet!
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- Jan 22, 2004
I'm pretty sure its not. Gregory & Petukhov just used Prokofiev's Romeo & Juliet in 05/06. Wing & Lowe, I think, used Coppelia. Just a few recent ones that come to mind.
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- Sep 10, 2005
Then it's an update to the rules. In any case, I reiterate, not appropriate if the discipline wants to maintain its idenitity and not become "pairs lite". Keep the rules stricter, and keep away from ballet, which is just too different (unless you get into the very few ballets that are based off waltzes as actual waltzes and danced in heeled slippers.)
In any case, no more excuses to use another damn R&J, or Swan Lake, or Nutcracker...the freestylers need to lay off those, let alone the ice dancers.
I was under the impression that Baryshnikov also wasn't really attracted to NYCB because under Mr. B, let's face it, the company was not about the danseurs. You had great men, obviously (Jacques D'Ambroise, Eddy Villea, forgive my spelling, Peter Martins, etc) but Balanchine really was about the women. But yeah, SAB technique gets you...my ballet instructor from college went there, and passed the hands and port de bras especially to all of us.
In any case, no more excuses to use another damn R&J, or Swan Lake, or Nutcracker...the freestylers need to lay off those, let alone the ice dancers.
I was under the impression that Baryshnikov also wasn't really attracted to NYCB because under Mr. B, let's face it, the company was not about the danseurs. You had great men, obviously (Jacques D'Ambroise, Eddy Villea, forgive my spelling, Peter Martins, etc) but Balanchine really was about the women. But yeah, SAB technique gets you...my ballet instructor from college went there, and passed the hands and port de bras especially to all of us.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
I remember Misha as having a tough time with the Balanchine technique, as does everyone who is not brought up in the School of American Ballet. He actually did Twyla Tharpe quite well. And, yes, Rudy was special.
Actually JLC, SAB produces very fine male dancers, but they are not encouraged to WOW the audience as ABT male dancers. You many not like Damien Woertzl but his technique is flawless and he is extremely musical.
ABT v. City Ballet = Apples and Organges.
Joe
Ballet in skating
I have really, really enjoyed this thread.
I am a huge fan of the influence of ballet on figure skating...I think it's all for the good. I think beautiful posture and line comes from ballet and without ballet, we would see more figure skaters out there with ugly posture and no line. Simply...ballet makes figure skaters look more majestic, more impressive and more beautiful on the ice. I can think of so many examples....
The beautiful posture through the back and head (the core of the body) that we see from Mai Asada, Mao Asada, Sasha Cohen, Naomi Nari Nam, Angela Nikodinov, Fumie Suguri, Caroline Zhang, Mirai Nagasu, Anna Rechnio, Surya Bonaly, Oksana Baiul, Shue Shen, Hongo Zhao, Anton Sikarulidze, Elene Berezhnaya, Yuka Kawaguchi, Alexander Smirnov, Ekaterina Gordieeva, Sergei Grinkov, Jamie Salle, David Pelletier, Nicole Bobek, Johnny Weir, Emanuel Sandhu, Ilya Klimkin, Klimova & Ponamarenko, Lang & Tchernyshev, and countless others...that came from years and years of ballet training.
Futhermore, the beautiful stretch lines that we see from skaters who have really perfected them like Johnny Weir, Sasha Cohen and Mirai Nagasu, that also comes from ballet...it makes the skater look far, far more impressive on the ice than they would without ballet...it creates beautiful pictures on the ice.
Myriad images come into my mind, the beautiful arch and attitude that we always see in Naomi Lang's back, the powerful, magnificent lines that we see from Anton Sikarulidze and Emanuel Sandhu, the beautiful turned out and pointed feet of Sasha Cohen, Oksana Baiul, and Mirai Nagasu, the beautiful arms and attitude position and the gorgeous free-leg position and turned out free-foot in the layback spins of Angela Nikodinov and Sarah Hughes...and then there is Johnny Weir, just everything about his skating comes from ballet, the perfect posture through the core of the body, the magnificent stetch lines, the control, the jumps that look like beautiful works of art...this all comes from the ballet stage.
Ballet has elevated figure skating from a sport to an art form.
Furthermore, when I think of some of the greatest performances and some skater's signature pieces, ballet music has been the soundtrack...Angela Nikodinov's Giselle and Afternoon of a Faun, Janet Lynn's Afternoon of a Faun, Annisina & Pierzerat's Romeo et Juliette, Johnny Weir and Oksana Baiul's "the Swan," Tiffany & Johnny Stiegler to Giselle, Zhen & Zhao to "Pas de Deux," Rudy Galindo's Swan Lake, Oksana Baiul's "Black Swan" from Swan Lake, Nicole Bobek's "Invitation to Dance," Sarah Hughes "Daphnie et Chloe," ...I could go on and on. Ballet music seems to really inspire the skating.
I have really, really enjoyed this thread.
I am a huge fan of the influence of ballet on figure skating...I think it's all for the good. I think beautiful posture and line comes from ballet and without ballet, we would see more figure skaters out there with ugly posture and no line. Simply...ballet makes figure skaters look more majestic, more impressive and more beautiful on the ice. I can think of so many examples....
The beautiful posture through the back and head (the core of the body) that we see from Mai Asada, Mao Asada, Sasha Cohen, Naomi Nari Nam, Angela Nikodinov, Fumie Suguri, Caroline Zhang, Mirai Nagasu, Anna Rechnio, Surya Bonaly, Oksana Baiul, Shue Shen, Hongo Zhao, Anton Sikarulidze, Elene Berezhnaya, Yuka Kawaguchi, Alexander Smirnov, Ekaterina Gordieeva, Sergei Grinkov, Jamie Salle, David Pelletier, Nicole Bobek, Johnny Weir, Emanuel Sandhu, Ilya Klimkin, Klimova & Ponamarenko, Lang & Tchernyshev, and countless others...that came from years and years of ballet training.
Futhermore, the beautiful stretch lines that we see from skaters who have really perfected them like Johnny Weir, Sasha Cohen and Mirai Nagasu, that also comes from ballet...it makes the skater look far, far more impressive on the ice than they would without ballet...it creates beautiful pictures on the ice.
Myriad images come into my mind, the beautiful arch and attitude that we always see in Naomi Lang's back, the powerful, magnificent lines that we see from Anton Sikarulidze and Emanuel Sandhu, the beautiful turned out and pointed feet of Sasha Cohen, Oksana Baiul, and Mirai Nagasu, the beautiful arms and attitude position and the gorgeous free-leg position and turned out free-foot in the layback spins of Angela Nikodinov and Sarah Hughes...and then there is Johnny Weir, just everything about his skating comes from ballet, the perfect posture through the core of the body, the magnificent stetch lines, the control, the jumps that look like beautiful works of art...this all comes from the ballet stage.
Ballet has elevated figure skating from a sport to an art form.
Furthermore, when I think of some of the greatest performances and some skater's signature pieces, ballet music has been the soundtrack...Angela Nikodinov's Giselle and Afternoon of a Faun, Janet Lynn's Afternoon of a Faun, Annisina & Pierzerat's Romeo et Juliette, Johnny Weir and Oksana Baiul's "the Swan," Tiffany & Johnny Stiegler to Giselle, Zhen & Zhao to "Pas de Deux," Rudy Galindo's Swan Lake, Oksana Baiul's "Black Swan" from Swan Lake, Nicole Bobek's "Invitation to Dance," Sarah Hughes "Daphnie et Chloe," ...I could go on and on. Ballet music seems to really inspire the skating.
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- Joined
- Nov 7, 2006
I think that them using ballet music in skating is a good thing because ever since figure went away, little style has been used in skating so anything to bring that beauty that skating once had back has my vote.
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2006
Great post, layman. I just watched Kimmie at the Japan Open and was quite horrified by the awkwardness of her positions. I really wonder if this, more than jump problems, didn't account for her finishing last. (There was also one very odd fall on nothing, ie she must have tripped on a bump in the ice, right under the judges' noses. 
) She absolutely needs ballet training to become more aware and in control of her line and carriage.
) She absolutely needs ballet training to become more aware and in control of her line and carriage.Many times skaters will use ballet music without attempting to move like ballet dancers or reproduce the themes or plots of the ballets the music came from.
Many times skaters who do have extensive ballet training skate in ways that remind us of ballet dancers even when skating to non-ballet music.
Some skaters move well in ways that ballet-accustomed eyes appreciate because of off-ice ballet training, or other off-ice training, or on-ice training by demanding coaches who themselves were ballet trained, or even just a natural gift for body control and graceful movement.
Music composed for the ballet music was designed to be danced to, so it also tends to work well when skated to, even if the style of the skating is not "balletic."
Personally, I enjoy watching skaters who move well in whatever style they've chosen to skate in, including but not limited to ballet. Whether the quality of their movement comes from ballet training or other training is less relevant to me than the quality itself.
I enjoy programs that have a clear point of view. That may include taking music associated with a specific off-ice dance and adapting that directly to the ice. It could also include taking music from a ballet or other off-ice context and using it for a completely different concept on the ice. Or vice versa for that matter.
Many times skaters who do have extensive ballet training skate in ways that remind us of ballet dancers even when skating to non-ballet music.
Some skaters move well in ways that ballet-accustomed eyes appreciate because of off-ice ballet training, or other off-ice training, or on-ice training by demanding coaches who themselves were ballet trained, or even just a natural gift for body control and graceful movement.
Music composed for the ballet music was designed to be danced to, so it also tends to work well when skated to, even if the style of the skating is not "balletic."
Personally, I enjoy watching skaters who move well in whatever style they've chosen to skate in, including but not limited to ballet. Whether the quality of their movement comes from ballet training or other training is less relevant to me than the quality itself.
I enjoy programs that have a clear point of view. That may include taking music associated with a specific off-ice dance and adapting that directly to the ice. It could also include taking music from a ballet or other off-ice context and using it for a completely different concept on the ice. Or vice versa for that matter.
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2006
I am a huge fan of Daphnes et Chole, and would love to see an ice dance team do that. maybe Belbin and Agosto. B&A would also do a very good shereazde. they need somthing with a lot of drama, and that music certainly has it. I find it strange that so many singles skaters choose ballet music, but so few ice dancers or even pairs. I think that ballet can be interprted better with two.
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