2019-20 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[Happy Skates]

Honestly, pretty much all the quads that have been ratified for ladies with the exception of Valieva's 4T and , on occasionally, Sasha's 4T have been a bit UR. I think it is fine to complain about the lack of calls but I hope we don't see the same amount of hate that Alysa got, again. For her, or for any of the other young ladies. Was Anna's quad UR..yes, it was but it was a great attempt. Very brave of her to go for it when she kept falling on it in practice. These tiny ladies are very brave.

Anna's quad wasn't under-rotated though. If you compare the direction she enters the jump in vs. the direction she lands it in, she is very clearly less than 90 degrees off. I think the confusion comes from the hook on the landing. People look at the hook and assume that the number of degrees of under-rotation directly correlates with the number of degrees she turns on the landing. But this is not true, because at the end of the hook she is about 90 degrees past the direction she entered the jump in. In other words, she entered the jump facing 180 degrees from the short end of the rink, but she ends the hook facing 180 degrees from the long end. So yes, she did hook on the landing, but that doesn't mean that it was UR.

 

[readernick]

Do you really think so? I feared it was under but when I saw the replays I thought it was just inside. The criteria for UR is still more than 90 degrees, no?

No, not more than 90 degrees at 90 degrees. So, yes I think it is UR.

 

[katymay]

Thank you Edwin! I wonder about Alina's Don Quixote Olympic red tutu. In the U.S., the dresses of Olympic Champions go to the Figure Skating Hall of Fame in Colorado. My mom visited and said she couldn't believe how tiny Kristy Yamguchi's dress was.

 

[readernick]

Anna's quad wasn't under-rotated though. If you compare the direction she enters the jump in vs. the direction she lands it in, she is very clearly less than 90 degrees off. I think the confusion comes from the hook on the landing. People look at the hook and assume that the number of degrees of under-rotation directly correlates with the number of degrees she turns on the landing. But this is not true, because at the end of the hook she is about 90 degrees past the direction she entered the jump in. In other words, she entered the jump facing 180 degrees from the short end of the rink, but she ends the hook facing 180 degrees from the long end. So yes, she did hook on the landing, but that doesn't mean that it was UR.

I don’t think a hook always means UR but it usually does. In this case, I think it wasn’t majorly UR but just at 90 like Alysa’s. At 90 is UR according to the rules. But, I have noticed they ratified Alysa’s quad, some of Sasha’s quads, Elizabet’s quad when they were 90 degrees under... so this quad fits the pattern. It was very brave of Anna so, Good Job!

 

[ec00834]

I don’t think a hook always means UR but it usually does. In this case, I think it wasn’t majorly UR but just at 90 like Alysa’s. At 90 is UR according to the rules. But, I have noticed they ratified Alysa’s quad, some of Sasha’s quads, Elizabet’s quad when they were 90 degrees under... so this quad fits the pattern. It was very brave of Anna so, Good Job!

Alysa's quad was much more UR than any of the girls you mentioned. Elizabet's quad at Worlds was definitely clean?

 

[Jontor]

No, not more than 90 degrees at 90 degrees. So, yes I think it is UR.

But surely if the criteria is 90 degrees, you would give the skater the benefit of a doubt if it's around that area? I mean, it's not like we can go out there and measure the exact angle of the jump so if the jump is visually "about" 90 degrees under, than it should be cleared...no?

 

[*~RussianBleux~*]

Nah people here are just biased. You could see plain as day where she comes down at 90. And yes Trusova’s quads have been similarly UR. Can you give them the benefit of the doubt, sure but again that goes for Alysa too.

 

[*~RussianBleux~*]

Alysa's quad was much more UR than any of the girls you mentioned. Elizabet's quad at Worlds was definitely clean?

From what I’ve seen that one was under as well. I agree with readernick’s assessment on many of the ratified quads being under. But again the trend seems to be to give the benefit of the doubt to the skater. Sasha, Anna, Elizabet, Alysa, there is room at the table for all.

Anna’s quad was completely clean at Russian nationals last year and it’s my favorite quad lutz ever, men included.

 

[Jontor]

Anna’s quad was completely clean at Russian nationals last year and it’s my favorite quad lutz ever, men included.

Yes that one was a beauty. And for me at the time, totally unexpected.

 

[Elucidus]

https://www.sports.ru/tribuna/blogs/elucidus/2574522.html
Here is my article on sports.ru proving that Anna 4Lz in Bergamo was rotated enough. It is composed as the answer to other article which was made with intention of Anna's skate defamation. Quotes from that article are in green text - while normal text is rebuttal of it. I am sorry I haven't enough time to translate it for you now - but you can use google translate if you want. Still, the article is graphic enough to provide information with pics, arrows, angles, phases of the jump etc. Also it introduces proper method of determining URs while exposing typical mistakes and wrong ways of doing it.

 

[flanker]

Yeah honestly I really don’t care that it wasn’t called. It really seems to me that the ISU has been trending more lenient on URs as of late. If you cannot see it in real time and the jump is otherwise beautiful (no shakiness or tightness on the landing) then they will leave it be. My main issue is that the same standard is applied to everyone. So therefore I don’t want to hear anything about Alysa next week. Both Anna and Alysa are lovely skaters with fantastic quad lutzes landed with a straight back and beautiful running edge.

It has nothing to do with leniency. Anna's quad wasn't UR not because of leniency but because it simply wasn't UR. I'm afraid I won't follow your order to not mention Alysa's UR if she will UR her quad. If she would UR, I will say her jump is UR, if she would not, I won't say that. But no ordes, no ultimatums, no deals.

 

[*~RussianBleux~*]

It has nothing to do with leniency. Anna's quad wasn't UR not because of leniency but because it simply wasn't UR. I'm afraid I won't follow your order to not mention Alysa's UR if she will UR her quad. If she would UR, I will say her jump is UR, if she would not, I won't say that. But no ordes, no ultimatums, no deals.

Well I can’t control what you do but I will continue to counter with the fact that Anna, Sasha , and Elizabet’s quads have also been ur and ratified. It’s the truth and I am not the only person to see it.

 

[flanker]

Well I can’t control what you do but I will continue to counter with the fact that Anna, Sasha , and Elizabet’s quads have also been ur and ratified. It’s the truth and I am not the only person to see it.

You can counter with your opinion, that's your right, but the opinions can turn wrong when they clash with facts (see above). Sometimes the most reasonable thing is to admit a fault and not dragging another skaters (Anna, Sasha etc.) into the qustion whether someone else (Alysa) URs her jumps or not.

 

[*~RussianBleux~*]

You can counter with your opinion, that's your right, but the opinions can turn wrong when they clash with facts (see above). Sometimes the most reasonable thing is to admit a fault and not dragging another skaters (Anna, Sasha etc.) into the qustion whether someone else (Alysa) URs her jumps or not.

I have no way to translate that right now but I believe the pictures being shows do not accurately depict when the blade hits the ice. That is my opinion and you can say whatever you want back but it isn’t going to change. Sometimes things really are just subjective.

It’s not about whether Alysa rotates her jumps or not, it’s about whether ratifying it is egregious. People that are biased against Alysa will always claim that it is but I maintain that it cannot be unless the same standard is applied to everyone. The names of all skaters who have had < quads ratified (in my opinion) are relevant here.

 

[flanker]

I have no way to translate that right now but I believe the pictures being shows do not accurately depict when the blade hits the ice. That is my opinion and you can say whatever you want back but it isn’t going to change. Sometimes things really are just subjective.

It’s not about whether Alysa rotates her jumps or not, it’s about whether ratifying it is egregious. People that are biased against Alysa will always claim that it is but I maintain that it cannot be unless the same standard is applied to everyone. The names of all skaters who have had < quads ratified (in my opinion) are relevant here.

It's your right to be(lieve) wrong.

 

[atsumiri]

Honestly, pretty much all the quads that have been ratified for ladies with the exception of Valieva's 4T and , on occasionally, Sasha's 4T have been a bit UR.

good joke.

But perhaps.... It's mean that girls are doing really great. If some people can't stop their own .... fantasy and imagination.

 

[*~RussianBleux~*]

It's your right to be(lieve) wrong.

I’m sorry you are upset that your argument against Alysa is blown.

 

[Fluture]

It's your right to be(lieve) wrong.

So is yours, though. Who says your opinion is the end all be all? Both Alysa‘s and Anna‘s quads were called clean. For both there are fair arguments against that. In the end, it doesn‘t really matter because the judges held the quad to the same standards - as clean. I‘m not a fan of quads in general and this whole “was it UR or not“ is not something I enjoy, so I won‘t comment on that, neither with Alysa nor Anna. There are enough people out there already, providing us with more or less accurate gifs and angles already. I haven’t been exactly actively posting on this forum in the last few days but reading interesting discussions and some people insisting on their opinion being the ultimate truth kind of rubs me the wrong way. What you see as true or right or correct doesn‘t have to be the same for others.

 

[flanker]

I’m sorry you are upset that your argument against Alysa is blown.

What argument against Alysa and how it was blown? I had to miss something. If we are talking about arguments, it is you who openly based your whole contribution to this debate on what you "believe". I've mentioned Alysa purely in the sense that if she would UR I will say she does UR, if she would not I won't say she does UR. The second mention was that dragging other skaters into the question whether Alysa URs or not is not an argument. That's not what you would in any way blew, in fact I don't think there is anything to be blown on those particular statements, that can't be even taken as "against Alysa", and if you believe it is "against Alysa" than it is you here with the selective view, not me, not those you were arguing with before. Also I remind you that this is Russian ladies thread, not Alysa's thread.

 

[flanker]

So is yours, though. Who says your opinion is the end all be all? Both Alysa‘s and Anna‘s quads were called clean. For both there are fair arguments against that. In the end, it doesn‘t really matter because the judges held the quad to the same standards - as clean. I‘m not a fan of quads in general and this whole “was it UR or not“ is not something I enjoy, so I won‘t comment on that, neither with Alysa nor Anna. There are enough people out there already, providing us with more or less accurate gifs and angles already. I haven’t been exactly actively posting on this forum in the last few days but reading interesting discussions and some people insisting on their opinion being the ultimate truth kind of rubs me the wrong way. What you see as true or right or correct doesn‘t have to be the same for others.

The question whether somebody is wrong or not can be tested. On one side there is a record of Anna's quad, there is an analysis and who does not like the analysis he is entitled to make his own. Those are the things on which you can base a statement whether someone is right or wrong, or to be more precise, whether Anna's quad was clean or not. I can say that based on all the accessible evidence the quad was clean and that's from what by opinion comes. Not anything else, just facts.

Your statement about my opinion is not correct, therefore. Also, the question whether you like quads or not has totally zero relevance on the question whether Anna's quad was clean or not and whether my opinion is right or not.