The quality of the program

[morninglight]

Some skaters always seem to have well thought-out programs, while others don't. I wonder where these differences come from. Any thoughts?

I also wonder if there have been many skaters (at all time) who have choreographed for themselves.

 

[flying camel]

I do remember Sasha & her coach Mr. Nicks use to do her choreography when she first came on to senior competition.

A well thought out program I think would come from the choreographer with some influence from the student & coach. I would like to see some of the top skaters try a variety of choreographers. It is getting to the point where you can tell who has done the skaters choreography. The programs are looking very similiar.

 

[Tinymavy15]

yes, sasha often chreographed her own programs, and did a great job of it. I think that a lot of skaters today get good chreography at the begining, when they first talk to thier chreograppher, but water it down a lot as they find it too difficult to land the triples and get the mood right. thus, many programs end up jump, spin, jump, jump, use some arms, spin, etc.. etc.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I do believe we have today, skating choreographers who know about skating (because they did it) and also know the CoP. There are many and they are expensive.

I think the Choreographer will outline a program fo the music that is agreed to by all concerned. The skater wil run through the program and insert a spin or jump which the choregrapher has suggested at certain points in the program, usually in concert with the timing and swells of the music. As the program is rehearsed the Skater must show her contribution by the use of her arms, hands and body movements. This will also contribute to the feelings of the music. If she is not able to do that, the choreographer must show her.

The Coach will ensure that the requirements of CoP are included. If not there will be changes.

Sonia Henie had the best choreographers in Hollywood who knew nothing about figure skating but the learned.

Joe

 

[Spun Silver]

As the program is rehearsed the Skater must show her contribution by the use of her arms, hands and body movements.

Don't forget the head. Not naming names here but one skater who is lambasted for stiff arms also suffers artistically from stiff neck.

 

[morninglight]

Thanks all for the comments.

I do believe we have today, skating choreographers who know about skating (because they did it) and also know the CoP. There are many and they are expensive

Just out of curiosity, would anybody know how expensive a program may be if a skater seeks for help from a famous choreographer???

As the program is rehearsed the Skater must show her contribution by the use of her arms, hands and body movements. This will also contribute to the feelings of the music. If she is not able to do that, the choreographer must show her.

So do skaters themselves add movements of arms, hands, the body, and the head to the program instead of a choreographer suggests all choreo?



And how long and in what ways would a choreographer usually commit to the development of a program during the course of the season when the skater is not doing well in interpreting and performing the intended choreo? If the skater's coach him/herself is not the choreographer and the choreographer does not live nearby, it can be a problem.

 

[morninglight]

Fluff on Jeff's Choreographer (2005).

For your interest:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxEsibBz5Og

Jeff looks so cute & boyish

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

So do skaters themselves add movements of arms, hands, the body, and the head to the program instead of a choreographer suggests all choreo?

If they have a sense of the music, their arms, head, fingers, etc., will follow easily. If not, the choreographer must show them.

Joe

 

[JonnyCoop]

Jeff looks so cute & boyish

When DOESN'T he?????

Re. the actual topic here: I think a lot of it does depend on the skater. Some have a sense of this type of thing, some don't. It can be acquired over time, but it can take years. Some skaters naturally tend more toward getting to the next jump with little regard as to how they get there, while others tend to naturally lean toward the potential beauty of the whole thing.

Also, some coaches are out there doing choreography that have absolutely no business doing so. This can lead to some pretty sketchy efforts.

 

[morninglight]

If they have a sense of the music, their arms, head, fingers, etc., will follow easily. If not, the choreographer must show them.

Joe

When I skated, my coach wouldn't like it if I changed any choreo without her permission. But perhaps top skaters may be allowed to have more control over their programs??? I don't know. Isn't it considered bad if the skater changes anything without choreographer's permission, because choreographers themselves are established professionals who write scores for the skaters?

 

[Mathman]

Just out of curiosity, would anybody know how expensive a program may be if a skater seeks for help from a famous choreographer?

I don't really know, but I have heard figures like $5000 US thrown around. This was a while back, though -- it might be higher now.

And how long and in what ways would a choreographer usually commit to the development of a program during the course of the season when the skater is not doing well in interpreting and performing the intended choreo? If the skater's coach him/herself is not the choreographer and the choreographer does not live nearby, it can be a problem.

I think this is indeed a major problem. Lori Nichol, for one, never travels to work with her clients -- they come to her. This is one of the reasons Michelle Kwan gave for switching choreographers for the 2001-2002 season -- Kwan's schedule did not permit her to undertake a lot of travelling back and forth from California to Toronto.

In this instance, though, it didn't help her. Michelle's new choreographer, Sarah Kawahara, was also chosen to choreograph the Olympic pagentry, with Kristi Yamaguchi and others. So Kawahara did not have much free time to work with Michelle that season anyway.

I think it often happens that what you get us the program, and that's all.

 

[Mathman]

Isn't it considered bad if the skater changes anything without choreographer's permission, because choreographers themselves are established professionals who write scores for the skaters?

I don't think so. Like you say, they are professionals. The skater buys a program from the choreographer. Now the program is the property of the skater to do with as he/she wishes. The skater could say, naw, I'm not going to use it after all, for instance.

Michelle's Bolero choreographed by Christopher Dean went through several versions in the 2005-2006 season. There was speculation that Dean was a little miffed at Michelle for not doing it exactly as he had laid it out, but I don't know if this is true or not. (Anyway, Michelle's hip injury was becoming more serious by then, so she may have had to make adjustments for that.)

The other thing is that a new coach or choreographer might come on the scene. When Sasha Cohen switched from Tatiana Tarasova to Robin Wagner, Wagner pretty much gutted Tarasova's Swan Lake program and did a new one.

 

[morninglight]

I don't really know, but I have heard figures like $5000 US thrown around. This was a while back, though -- it might be higher now.

I don't think $5000 US is that expensive at all, given that you use that program for the entire season and the name of the Choreographer itself would give some credit to the program. I feel that it may be much more expensive now

I think it often happens that what you get us the program, and that's all.

Wow..... hwell: That would be hard. Carolina Kostner had Lori's program, but perhaps she wouldn't have been able to make an international travel just to seek her advice. Although it would be perhaps best to work with the choreographer him/herself to improve the quality of performance during the course of season, the skater then might need to hire another person who is good at artistry if the main coach is not too good at it.

 

[morninglight]

I don't think so. Like you say, they are professionals. The skater buys a program from the choreographer. Now the program is the property of the skater to do with as he/she wishes. The skater could say, naw, I'm not going to use it after all, for instance.

hahaha. That would be funny

Michelle's Bolero choreographed by Christopher Dean went through several versions in the 2005-2006 season. There was speculation that Dean was a little miffed at Michelle for not doing it exactly as he had laid it out, but I don't know if this is true or not. (Anyway, Michelle's hip injury was becoming more serious by then, so she may have had to make adjustments for that.)

The other thing is that a new coach or choreographer might come on the scene. When Sasha Cohen switched from Tatiana Tarasova to Robin Wagner, Wagner pretty much gutted Tarasova's Swan Lake program and did a new one.

Both cases sound likely to happen :yes:

 

[shine]

yes, sasha often chreographed her own programs, and did a great job of it. I

I think I have to disagree with that.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

When I skated, my coach wouldn't like it if I changed any choreo without her permission. But perhaps top skaters may be allowed to have more control over their programs??? I don't know. Isn't it considered bad if the skater changes anything without choreographer's permission, because choreographers themselves are established professionals who write scores for the skaters?

It may be that the Coach did not think you were ready to pick up on his/her choreography just yet. The FLOW of skating includes body movements as well as skating over the ice. Some skaters are already born to that, others have to develop it. I am sure the coach will let you do your thing when you are ready. Don't give up.

Joe

 

[morninglight]

It may be that the Coach did not think you were ready to pick up on his/her choreography just yet. The FLOW of skating includes body movements as well as skating over the ice. Some skaters are already born to that, others have to develop it. I am sure the coach will let you do your thing when you are ready. Don't give up.

Joe

No, I don't compete any longer. Thanks nonetheless

 

[Mathman]

The skater could say, naw, I'm not going to use [the program] after all.

hahaha. That would be funny.

In the 2000-2001 season Michelle broke out of the mold with two new programs by choreographers that she had never worked with before. Her short was Rush (Eric Clapton) choreographed by Christopher Dean and her long was The Miraculous Mandarin choreographed by Peter
Oppegard (later her brother-in-law ).

Both the music and the choreography were a departure from vintage Michelle. But the programs were not well received by the judges in the early part of the season (at least Michelle thought so). So she tossed those two programs and went back to Lori for Song of the Black Swan (I don't think Michelle ever liked this music -- she seemed to fight it), and another go-round with East of Eden.

 

[morninglight]

But the programs were not well received by the judges in the early part of the season (at least Michelle thought so). So she tossed those two programs and went back to Lori for Song of the Black Swan (I don't think Michelle ever liked this music -- she seemed to fight it), and another go-round with East of Eden.

I take it back. Not that funny when it actually happens. Must be stressful for both parties.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Both the music and the choreography were a departure from vintage Michelle. But the programs were not well received by the judges in the early part of the season (at least Michelle thought so). So she tossed those two programs and went back to Lori for Song of the Black Swan (I don't think Michelle ever liked this music -- she seemed to fight it), and another go-round with East of Eden.

Would you say that Michelle was not versatile?