A need for new rules to qualify skaters for Worlds

[Zuranthium]

If every singles skater in the U.S. who was better than the skaters just made the SP cut at 2007 Worlds was permitted to go, that would include every Juvenile and above singles skater who made it to Junior Nationals, Sectionals or Nationals.

????

Why would Novice and Junior skaters be permitted to go to the Senior World Championships?

~Z

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

So allow double the number already permitted (up to 6 for the big federations), and figure out how to hold it and pay for it.

And as for those who are simply better than most who go ...

If every singles skater in the U.S. who was better than the skaters just made the SP cut at 2007 Worlds was permitted to go, that would include every Juvenile and above singles skater who made it to Junior Nationals, Sectionals or Nationals.

Not trying to change the rules or worry about juveniles.

I only skimmed over Hockeyfan's post but I am sure it has another way of handling this more calmly. It will cost money, yes unfortunately but only for the Big Feds.

Give all the countries their l skater and those that qualify 2 or 3. What's left is an Open contest for those to fulfil the vacancies. But read HFs.post.

Joe

 

[gsrossano]

Not trying to change the rules

If you are not trying to change the rules, then you must be happy with things exactly as they are. If you are not happy with things the way they are, then you are trying to change the rules.

If the goal is that Worlds should have the 50 (to pick a number) best skaters in the World in a division then you leave out the countries where skating is just developing. You leave out those countries and you harm skating in those countries, in which case you are not doing skating overall (IMO) a favor.

If you want the 50 best, how do you pick them? If you use last years rankings, or the rankings from competitions in the fall, you get the 50 best from last year or six months ago. Not the 50 best in March. If you use a qualifying competition structure do you break it up geographically? Nobody (federations) has embraced the idea of using Europeans and 4C as qualifying competitions which was floated several years ago.

Do you pick the 50 best scores/records worldwide? Will that get you the 50 best? Maybe not. Judges marks are not consistent from morning to afternoon, no less from one month to the next, or one geographic region to the next. Plus, if you base qualifying on best scores you introduce an incentive is for judges to inflate their scores to help skaters from their region or country to make the cut.

If this had an easy answer, we would be using the easy answer already.

 

[Mathman]

GSRossano's point was not that juveniles should be invited to senior worlds. He was saying, you cannot let in every skater who happens to be better than the national champion of countries that have small and new skating programs.

The ladies from Hong Kong and India , bless their hearts, scored less than 30 points in the SP at their worlds' debuts last year. There are quite literally hundreds of young skaters in the U.S. who "deserve" to go to worlds ahead of them, if you go just by indivdual talent and past achievement independent of national affiliation.

 

[Zuranthium]

If the goal is that Worlds should have the 50 (to pick a number) best skaters in the World in a division then you leave out the countries where skating is just developing. You leave out those countries and you harm skating in those countries

Not at all. They go to the Grand Prix + Euros/Four Continents as their international competitions for the year. Worlds is Worlds. That means the BEST in the World.

~Z

 

[gsrossano]

Not at all. They go to the Grand Prix + Euros/Four Continents as their international competitions for the year. Worlds is Worlds. That means the BEST in the World.

~Z

To the developing nations, going to the Grand Prix, or Euros or 4C is a poor second choice. A consolation prize. All of the suggestions in this thread have been discussed for years within the ISU, and they all go nowhere because the small federations that make up the majority of the ISU members insist they MUST have the opportunity to send at least one skater to WORLDS. And until you convince the small federations to cut their own throats, eliminating the skaters from the small federations from Worlds is not going to happen.

Worlds serves two purposes: to pick three medalists in each discipline and to develop interest in skating worldwide.

The same argument has taken place in USFSA for years over the size of Nationals and Junior Nationals. Are they about crowning a champion or are they about participation? So far, the answer always has come out the same in both USFSA as in the ISU. When the elitists say it should only be about the best of the best and try and cut back opportunity, the elitists always lose.

 

[Zuranthium]

To the developing nations, going to the Grand Prix, or Euros or 4C is a poor second choice. A consolation prize. All of the suggestions in this thread have been discussed for years within the ISU, and they all go nowhere because the small federations that make up the majority of the ISU members insist they MUST have the opportunity to send at least one skater to WORLDS.

But every country doesn't get to send one skater to Worlds presently. ENGLAND, a very well developed country, had no skaters competing in the Singles events.

Getting to skate both your Short and Long Program at a Grand Prix event is most certainly better experience than getting to skate only your Short Program (or nothing at all) at Worlds.

~Z

 

[gsrossano]

But every country doesn't get to send one skater to Worlds presently. ENGLAND, a very well developed country, had no skaters competing in the Singles events.

Getting to skate both your Short and Long Program at a Grand Prix event is most certainly better experience than getting to skate only your Short Program (or nothing at all) at Worlds.

~Z

All members may send one. Some choose not to. Britain generally does not send competitors unless they can expect them to make it to the final round.

ISU rule 378 2 a) states: "In ISU Championships each Member, except Special Clubs, may enter one Competitor (Couple) in each event."

As for what is a better experience, your or my opinion doesn't mean squat. Only the views of the federations matter. You clearly have no clue how things work at the ISU or within its member federations.

 

[gkelly]

But every country doesn't get to send one skater to Worlds presently. ENGLAND, a very well developed country, had no skaters competing in the Singles events.

Every member federation is *allowed* to send one entry in each discipline. GBR, like all the other federations, has the right to send one male and one female singles skater each year. They *chose* not to send anyone.

Federations also have the right not to send skaters. It costs money to send skaters to Worlds. If a federation does not have at least one entry in a given discipline who is age eligible and healthy enough to compete and skilled enough to have a reasonable chance of making the cut, they can choose not to send anyone in that discipline.

We could debate whether any given federation would be better served by spending their money to send their best man or lady available in a given year to Worlds or to spend that money sending that skater and perhaps other skaters as well to other competitions closer to home and/or more appropriate for their skill level. Just as we could debate whether a federation should send their national champion or would be better served filling the slot with someone else who may have a higher skill level in general but was unable to compete at their nationals or happened to have a particularly bad competition there.

But if they do choose not to use their slot at Worlds, it's their choice to make -- the option is still available to them to use next year or whenever they have an appropriate skater to send.

This is more obvious with pairs. Every federation is allowed to send one pair to Worlds. Most federations do not have any senior pairs (or in many cases any pairs at all), so there's no one to send. But they want to have the slot available to them as soon as an appropriate pair comes along.

 

[Zuranthium]

All members may send one. Some choose not to. Britain generally does not send competitors unless they can expect them to make it to the final round.

ISU rule 378 2 a) states: "In ISU Championships each Member, except Special Clubs, may enter one Competitor (Couple) in each event."

As for what is a better experience, your or my opinion doesn't mean squat. Only the views of the federations matter. You clearly have no clue how things work at the ISU or within its member federations.

*sigh*, I know the rule. Perhaps I should have worded it as "but every Nationa doesn't send a skater". What I'm saying is people are arguing that federations would have less ability to train skaters if they weren't garunteed a spot at Worlds. That's simply not true since (A.) many countries are already not sending people, and (B.) most every country that wants to think they have a chance ends up with a skater that doesn't make it past the Short Program.

So again I ask -- How does getting to skate your SP at Worlds give you more experience than getting to skate your SP and LP at a Grand Prix event?

~Z

 

[hockeyfan228]

I wasn't suggesting that if the ISU chose 50 skaters, they'd be the best skaters at Worlds. What I was suggesting was a compromise of a compromise:

All of the skaters who would qualify now, qualify. If the federation decided not to send a skater, that would open an extra spot for the stronger federations's skaters.

If there were a qualifying round for the balance of the spots, it would cost money. A cost-free solution would be to say that everyone who has a personal best at least as good as some criterion, like better than the top 12 who received two GP berth, who qualfied for their National team, and who were in the appropriate division (Jrs./Srs.) in the current season, could be eligible to participate at Worlds. If there were more skaters who qualified, then the highest scores would make the top 50, and the feds would be required to pay the expenses of the skaters.

For example, the top 12 Ladies competing in GP this year were:

1 Kimmie MEISSNER
2 Fumie SUGURI
3 Elena SOKOLOVA
4 Yukari NAKANO JPN
5 Sarah MEIER SUI
6 Joannie ROCHETTE CAN
7 Emily HUGHES USA
8 Susanna POYKIO FIN
9 Kiira KORPI FIN
10 Yoshie ONDA JPN
11 Carolina KOSTNER ITA
12 Mao ASADA JPN (because Cohen didn't skate GP)

There were 45 participants in the SP in Tokyo

Personal Bests among senior women:

If bold, they made their respective teams anyway. If italic/bold, they would have a chance to qualify under the new rules.

Asada
Ando
Kim
Meissner
Suguri
Kostner
Rochette
Meier
Nakano
Hughes
Czisny
Poykio
Sawada
Sebestyen
Marchei
Onda
Korpi
Leung
Sokolova

Three women, all from Japan, would have qualified for the SP at Worlds 2007: Suguri, Sawada, and Onda. If the cut-off is 48-50, then all of them would have competed in Tokyo.

This isn't foolproof: while it could help skaters who are being held down by their federations, if their federations couldn't influence world judges to hold their skaters down at GP, 4C's, Euro, it this would allow federations to fix nationals, so that any skater who would qualify under the new rules would be held down, to maximize the number of skaters from that country. Plus, if I were a small nation, I'd be willing to take some form of consideration from a big fed to not send a marginal skater, opening up a spot for a big fed's skater.

The other possibility is a qualifying event the first day of Worlds, like the quali rounds a Wimbledon, which would cost $$$, even if the feds paid to send the skaters.

 

[antmanb]

But every country doesn't get to send one skater to Worlds presently. ENGLAND, a very well developed country, had no skaters competing in the Singles events.
~Z

That had nothing to do with ISU rules and everything to do with crappy unhelpful national federation.

Ant

 

[Mathman]

England should trade their men's and ladies' spots to some other country in exchange for a higher placement for Sinead and John.

 

[hockeyfan228]

England should trade their men's and ladies' spots to some other country in exchange for a higher placement for Sinead and John.

Xactly.

 

[antmanb]

England should trade their men's and ladies' spots to some other country in exchange for a higher placement for Sinead and John.

They really should!! Or instead actually send the skaters the we have so that the start getting the experience they need at international events to start making the cut for the LP. John Hamer is an exceptionally talented skater - he stands alone in the UK as the only man who can land all six triples. He is not pushed in the slightest at any local event he attends and even with mistakes he always takes the national title. Unfortunately he is not invited to the GP so his international season (if he's very lucky) is maybe a B international and Europeans. If the UK sent him to worlds then he'd have nearly another year of international experience under his belt compared to an average year. The UK need to wise up to this, or at least allow the skaters to fund their own competition if they so wish - i've no doubt john would find a way to get to the worlds.

Ant

 

[feraina]

If the UK sent him to worlds then he'd have nearly another year of international experience under his belt compared to an average year.

So why doesn't GBR send John Hamer to Worlds? Poor placement at Euros? Jenna McCorkell usually gets sent to Worlds, where was she this year? UK has no senior-level pairs team right now, and hasn't had one for a while... At least they have a decent dance team right now, a great improvement from a few years ago.

You get this vicious cycle in GBR: low public interest --> little TV coverage --> poor skating federation --> underfunded athletes --> poor results --> low public interest. Let it be a lesson to USFSA!

Anyway, in skating terms, GBR might as well be a developing country.

 

[antmanb]

So why doesn't GBR send John Hamer to Worlds? Poor placement at Euros?

Yes i think it was becuase he had SP at Europeans and i think missed the cut for the LP.

Jenna McCorkell usually gets sent to Worlds, where was she this year?

I believe both Jenna and John were down to go to Worlds intially and then i think Jenna got injured and couldn't go and NISA changed their mind about John.

To my mind they should have sent John and one of other Ladies National medalists. Vabnessa James i think did go to Junior Worlds but they could have sent Joanne Webber for the experience.

UK has no senior-level pairs team right now, and hasn't had one for a while...

Don't tell that to Stacey Kemp and David King They moved up to seniors nationally last year and i think went to Europeans and worlds last year too. They're working hard to land the throw triple flip in competition and have successfully landed the throw triple sal a few times in competition now. What let's them down is the SBS jumps - they use SBS double loops in the SP, repeated in the LP and attempt double flip/double toe sequence in the LP (though this will need re-thinking with the new sequence rules). They really need to start landing the DBD double axels. I'm told that they have double axels individually and i would think they would fair better to try them SBS and have deductions than stick to SBS double loops. The new crop of juniors who moved up from primary are all very talented i forget their names one of the Girls is Tameron Drake and the other couple has a guy named aomething Alton who i have always been impressed with. Sally Hoolin and Jake Bennett from Blackburn are the most rpomising junior pair - they're wonderful to watch with good speed and nice big element (when they hit them!). With any luck Pairs will start to blossom again!

You get this vicious cycle in GBR: low public interest --> little TV coverage --> poor skating federation --> underfunded athletes --> poor results --> low public interest. Let it be a lesson to USFSA!

Anyway, in skating terms, GBR might as well be a developing country.

i couldn't agree more. The ridiculous senior test rules that lead to only about 3 senior ladies competing at nationals really doesn't help either.

Ant

 

[gkelly]

The ridiculous senior test rules that lead to only about 3 senior ladies competing at nationals really doesn't help either.

What are the senior test rules?

 

[feraina]

I think Vanessa James tested all the way through Seniors very quickly? (Didn't she used to represent the US?) I always thought that the low turnout at the senior level was due to lack of interest/funding/athletes. Are the senior tests in GBR very different than in the US?

 

[antmanb]

What are the senior test rules?

I think they recently changed again such that the skater has to present a program that recieves a particular number of COP points (though don't quote me but i'm not sure).

Before this the senior test became either an SP or an LP (or maybe both) but it meant that to pass the senior test as a lady you have to pass the minimum jump standard for an elite level SP i.e. at least two different triples and a double axel. I'm sure they also have to present three different triples and at least 4 or 5 in the LP. The idea being that the people who pass the senior test will stand more of chance of being competitive internatioanlly. It obviously ignores the larger pool of skater who will never be elite but coudl pass their senior test.

Oh Well!

Ant