2019-20 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating | Page 714 | Golden Skate

2019-20 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

Giltedge said:
Thank you for the lists. Just wondered, shouldn't Ksenia Ts be there somewhere around 190??
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No, she won Tallin Trophy that wasn't a Challenger event this year. So it doesn't count for the SB list unfortunately. But she would have been 22nd with 194.16.
 
LenaRadiFan said:
I think one can definitely see the pcs/artistry part objectively. You can objectively determine if someone is musical and understands the music or not, and you can objecgively see if someone really does more than just the choreography that they were given if you know what I mean. One of the best examples for me is Satoko(I'm sorry for not mentioning a russian lady) I find her one of the most boring skaters to watch, yet I can still objectively say that artistically she is very good.
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I kind of disagree, I don’t think pcs can be judged objectively, not in points at least imo.
9 people might rank 12 skaters differently in pcs, and the average result may or may not represent their joint opinions.
I think people can say “this one is more artistic than this one”, and it still would be extremely subjective, but putting it in points is even less likely to be objective.
For me, it’s as if someone would try to calculate Oscars in points, give actors points in execution, interpretation, presentation, etc.
I would give Leo DeCaprio 9.5 in artistry, and 9.75 to Benedict Cumberbatch. I can’t find any objective criteria how those marks could be put into place and justified, and I doubt anyone can.

There’s a reason why dancing is not included in Olympics, and probably never will, the reason is quite obvious: it’s an art, it’s too subjective, the judging of dancing is equally way too subjective, hence, it will never qualify to be an olympic sport.
 
LenaRadiFan said:
I feel like when most people criticize Sashas artistry, it's not really "She doesn't skate to pretty ballet music so it can't be artistic" and more a "You can see that setting up the quads needs a lot of focus and causes her to not pay a lot of attention to the other part of the program." Of course I don't speak for everyone, but this is usually my thought process if I say and think Sashas pcs shouldn't be that high, or she should develop her artistry.

We must remember she is young, and a phenom like Aliona for example is one in a million so we can't compare, heck I wouldn't even compare Aliona to Anya in terms of artistry. Of course how everyone feels and perceives music is different and different people will prefer different programs and skaters.

Do I think Sasha shouldn't get those highish pcs in the free? Yes, because I think she skates through the music because her focus os on the jumps.

Do I think her exhibition and ahort programs(like this seasons or last seasons) are artistic and nice to watch? Also yes, because I think it just works for her better. Might be the music, might be the quads, who knows honestly.

I wanna say with that,,,it's fine to say one doesn't think Sasha is artistic and it's fine if someone thinks shes really artistic. I think you can measure it objectively to some point and for me, she hasn't reached her pcs scores just yet thus she shouldn't receive them yet as high. BUT she is young and will definitely improve so I am excited to see that.
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I agree almost 100%. There are quite a few examples of skaters who are not 'pretty princesses' but still are loved by both audience and judges. Sasha is an ambitious girl who will certainly work on all aspects of PCS if she saw the need of it. So far, she can easily get 67+ PCS for FS, which is only a few points less from her nearest competitors. She has good skating skills, but the pieces chosen for FP are very difficult to interpret even for an experienced skater, so there isn't a lot of involvement from her (her SP and her previous programs were perfect to show her energy and power though). I wish she could get something like Big Spender again - it could show more of her personality and would let her express more.

The phenom of skaters getting good PCS once they manage to land difficult elements is not new at all - take a look at men. It's just we are at such transitional time when some ladies strive to improve their content while others still believe they can win on their superior artistry and execution. Some will combine both and obviously win most major championships in a few years just like it is for men now.
 
flanker said:
CS Warsaw Cup, Liza Nugumanova 3rd (186.02), Serafima Sakhanovich 4th (178.27). And it partially belongs here, Ekaterina Kurakova did her personal best, 201.47. She won.
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Fantastic competition by Nugumanova with two "clean" skates. Unfortunately she was crucified by the hardest tech panel this season. She could easily have scored 10 points more. I think Tolstoj said it before - evrything about Nugumanova is wonderful except her protocols...

Sakhanovich had also a good free skate, but neglected to do a 3T in combo so she lost a jump.

Honorable mentions to the winner, former Russian Kurakova who had a great skate (and a little home-cooked judging;)), and to former Russian Viktoria Safonova who was also crucified by the judges though.

:otopic:I wonder if the news for Bradie that she is going to GPF got to her. She had the most strangest fall BEFORE she set up the 3Lz, then she fell again on 2A3T combo. She also missed the second 3T combo. Not a good skate by her.
 
About the PCS debate: I feel like some of the participants are again mistaking music intrepretation for the whole five components and the whole five components for "artistry". So there can be hardly any shift in the debate.
 
flanker said:
About the PCS debate: I feel like some of the participants again mistaking music intrepretation for the whole five components and the whole five components for "artistry". So there can be hardly any shift in the debate.
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I think the judges mistake those things too :D
There’s always a corridor in their marks :)
 
Does anyone have a link to Nugumanova‘s and Sima‘s performance? I‘m a bit sad that Sima didn‘t medal but very happy for Nugumanova. It feels like forever since we‘ve seen her on the international scene.
 
Jontor said:
Fantastic competition by Nugumanova with two "clean" skates. Unfortunately she was crucified by the hardest tech panel this season. She could easily have scored 10 points more. I think Tolstoj said it before - evrything about Nugumanova is wonderful except her protocols...

Sakhanovich had also a good free skate, but neglected to do a 3T in combo so she lost a jump.

Honorable mentions to the winner, former Russian Kurakova who had a great skate (and a little home-cooked judging;), and to former Russian Viktoria Safonova who was also crucified by the judges though.

:otopic:I wonder if the news for Bradie that she is going to GPF got to her. She had the most strangest fall BEFORE she set up the 3Lz, then she fell again on 2A3T combo. She also missed the second 3T combo. Not a good skate by her.
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Yes. BTW when I saw it and the results then, it came to my mind whether the same people, who were complaining that Sasha won Rostelecom Cup with two falls, will object the same in this case. Bradie with two falls still won over Liza with more or less clean skate. I know she was in the lead by 6 points over Liza after SP, but still it wasn't good skate by her at all, so I've expected at least Liza would get over her, maybe even Sima.
 
ruga said:
I agree almost 100%. There are quite a few examples of skaters who are not 'pretty princesses' but still are loved by both audience and judges. Sasha is an ambitious girl who will certainly work on all aspects of PCS if she saw the need of it. So far, she can easily get 67+ PCS for FS, which is only a few points less from her nearest competitors. She has good skating skills, but the pieces chosen for FP are very difficult to interpret even for an experienced skater, so there isn't a lot of involvement from her (her SP and her previous programs were perfect to show her energy and power though). I wish she could get something like Big Spender again - it could show more of her personality and would let her express more.

The phenom of skaters getting good PCS once they manage to land difficult elements is not new at all - take a look at men. It's just we are at such transitional time when some ladies strive to improve their content while others still believe they can win on their superior artistry and execution. Some will combine both and obviously win most major championships in a few years just like it is for men now.
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I agree with almost everything you said apart from it is obvious Sasha is already working hard to improve her performance other than jumps.
It is far more noticable in the SP where she isn't also focused on the quads.
This is not just a girl who is satisfied with being a jumping queen only.

As for skaters getting higher scores in general for landing difficult jumps... it goes way back.

Midori Ito and Tonya Harding when nailing their big 3A were often showered with 5.8s and 5.9s in presentation/artistic impression/the various terms that were used then for the same score.
 
flanker said:
Yes. BTW when I saw it and the results then, it came to my mind whether the same people, who were complaining that Sasha won Rostelecom Cup with two falls, will object the same in this case. Bradie with two falls still won over Liza with more or less clean skate. I know she was in the lead by 6 points over Liza after SP, but still it wasn't good skate by her at all, so I've expected at least Liza would get over her, maybe even Sima.
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Totally agree. I was shocked that Bradie got to the podium here. She had a disastrous skate, even her great spins were off. How she managed to get the highest PCS is beyond me. I would have had Bradie 4th behind Sima.
 
Jontor said:
Totally agree. I was shocked that Bradie got to the podium here. She had a disastrous skate, even her great spins were off. How she managed to get the highest PCS is beyond me. I would have had Bradie 4th behind Sima.
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The benefit of a points cushion in the SP did help keep her on the podium... but I would have her third.
That random fall messed up her entire program and she looked quite lost and it completely ruined her rhythm. It made for a messy performance, which should have been lower in PCS.
But Liza did get a few URs it seems which doesnt help matters either
 
Mishaminion said:
Nice to see Kurokova winning a challenger. It does show that there are more opportunities available by switching to represent a different country.
Her score also puts her (currently) in the top 24 SB list

Perhaps some of our more forgotten ladies will seriously consider if it is worth doing.
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ISU by extension of IOC has quite severe restrictions on switching federations, and usually money needs to be transferred between federations (probably w/o the skater getting any of it). It isn't as simple as it sounds.
 
Mishaminion said:
I agree with almost everything you said apart from it is obvious Sasha is already working hard to improve her performance other than jumps.
It is far more noticable in the SP where she isn't also focused on the quads.
This is not just a girl who is satisfied with being a jumping queen only.

As for skaters getting higher scores in general for landing difficult jumps... it goes way back.

Midori Ito and Tonya Harding when nailing their big 3A were often showered with 5.8s and 5.9s in presentation/artistic impression/the various terms that were used then for the same score.
Click to expand...

Sasha's SP is truly great this year, allowing her to show two sides of her performance abilities. With the FS it's bit more difficult, she has to perform 4 quads and as mentioned, the music is very difficult to interpret. Her 5th Element last year was an example of a good program that helps incorporate difficult elements into captivating performance.
 
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