2019-20 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[Mishaminion]

ISU by extension of IOC has quite severe restrictions on switching federations, and usually money needs to be transferred between federations (probably w/o the skater getting any of it). It isn't as simple as it sounds.

Yes, I understand that.

That's why it is something that would have to be very carefully weighed between positives and negatives before deciding

 

[elizabetha]

The thing with musicality is that not everyone have it or people have different levels of it and it is influencing their perception of performances, which is natural. Look at ballet scene, what is for one critic highly musical performance can be for other critic only mediocre (and they are professionals and they still can't agree). People hear/understand the same music differently, what is for someone highly emotional/dramatic piece is for someone calming, for example Abel Korzeniowski Romeo and Juliet soundtrack, if someone just heard this music and never knew that it was R&J (or never saw the movie scenes in which were the pieces used) they would have different perception of it than someone who saw the movie (to some people it sounds Christmassy)

 

[Thrashergurl]

Yes. BTW when I saw it and the results then, it came to my mind whether the same people, who were complaining that Sasha won Rostelecom Cup with two falls, will object the same in this case. Bradie with two falls still won over Liza with more or less clean skate. I know she was in the lead by 6 points over Liza after SP, but still it wasn't good skate by her at all, so I've expected at least Liza would get over her, maybe even Sima.

Sasha is winning because she’s landing those quads. You shouldn’t let the posts get to you. There were similar complaints about Patrick Chen winning when he was falling all over the place also. It’s not specific to a country or a coach. There are fans that prefer clean skates and don’t feel falls should be rewarded. I have yet to see a post blaming the skater vs the judging system. These complaints are not new or skater specific, but I can see how someone new to skating or a skater specific fan would see it that way.

Let her enjoy her success this season with quads.

 

[Fluture]

Yes. BTW when I saw it and the results then, it came to my mind whether the same people, who were complaining that Sasha won Rostelecom Cup with two falls, will object the same in this case. Bradie with two falls still won over Liza with more or less clean skate. I know she was in the lead by 6 points over Liza after SP, but still it wasn't good skate by her at all, so I've expected at least Liza would get over her, maybe even Sima.

I don’t quite like the tone of this post but I agree with the scores argument at least. I have never seen Bradie skate like this before. And today, in my opinion, there was not a single area in which she was better than Nugumanova and even Sakhanovich. I can only judge from the FS since I haven‘t seen the SP but today she just was not good at all. Nugumanova on the other hand had a great skate. Her jumps are problematic but her interpretation was sublime. So are her spins. Based on the FS, I would have had it:

Kurakova (what a ray of sunshine that girl is btw. Never fails to make me happy watching her)
Nugumanova
Sakhanovich
Tennell


The rankings were mostly like this but I would have had the difference between them higher. The SP might change the overall result, however.

Of course I also have to add that Bradie‘s not.. well, my favorite skater whereas Sima for example is someone I really like. Nothing against Bradie at all, she seems like a lovely person but I just don‘t get her style of skating. I think the only program of hers I‘ve liked was her SP last year. So I might be a bit biased against her when assessing things like PCS. But even taking PCS out of account, I thought she was quite handily beaten today by three girls. Just my opinion, though.

I‘m not upset at all, though as Nugumanova looked quite happy with her skate and placement too, so I‘m happy enough.

 

[Supernovaimplosion]

*UPDATED* Russian Ladies in the SB list after GP Rostelecom and Warsaw Cup - 21 (of 30) events

1 (1) - Alexandra Trusova, RUS 241.02 - GP Skate Canada
2 (2) - Alena Kostornaia, RUS 236.00 - GP Internationaux de France
3 (3) - Rika Kihira, JPN 230.33 - GP Skate Canada
4 (4) - Anna Shcherbakova, RUS 227.76 - GP Skate America
5 (7) - Evgenia Medvedeva, RUS 225.76 - GP Rostelecom Cup
6 (5) - Kamila Valieva (J), RUS 221.95 - JGP Chelyabinsk
7 (6) - Young You, KOR 217.49 - GP Skate Canada
8 (8) - Bradie Tennell, USA 216.14 - GP Skate America
9 (9) - Alina Zagitova, RUS 216.06 - GP Internationaux de France
10 (10) - Ksenia Sinitsyna, RUS 215.58 - JGP Egna/Neumarkt
11 (11) - Elizaveta Tuktamysheva, RUS 214.38 - CS Lombardia Trophy
12 (12) - Mariah Bell, USA 212.89 - GP Internationaux de France
13 (13) - Satoko Miyahara, JPN 211.18 - GP Cup of China
14 (14) - Alysa Liu (J), USA 208.10 - JGP Lake Placid
15 (15) - Haein Lee, KOR 203.40 - JGP Croatia Cup
16 (16) - Kaori Sakamoto, JPN 202.47 - GP Skate America
17 (44) - Ekaterina Kurakova, POL 201.47 - CS Warsaw Cup
18 (17) - Viktoria Vasilieva, RUS 198.79 - JGP Chelyabinsk
19 (18) - Eunsoo Lim, KOR 197.63 - CS Asian Open Trophy
20 (19) - Daria Usacheva (J), RUS 197.19 - JGP Croatia Cup
21 (20) - Anastasia Tarakanova, RUS 194.74 - JGP Baltic Cup
22 (21) - Rino Matsuike, JPN 193.03 - JGP Riga Cup
23 (22) - Yuhana Yokoi, JPN 191.90 - CS Finlandia Trophy
24 (23) - Seoyeong Wi, KOR 191.07 - JGP Courchevel
-----------------------------------------------------------
25 (24) - Maiia Khromykh (J), RUS 190.73 - JGP Riga Cup
27 (25) - Sofia Samodurova, RUS 187.16 - CS Ice Star Minsk
31 (new) - Elizaveta Nugumanova, RUS 186.02 - CS Warsaw Cup
33 (30) - Anna Frolova (J), RUS 181.96 - JGP Croatia Cup
41 (43) - Serafima Sakhanovich, RUS 178.27 - CS Warsaw Cup
67 (60) - Stanislava Konstantinova, RUS 162.25 - CS Nepela Memorial
81 (76) - Maria Sotskova 155.25 - CS Nepela Memorial


Nugumanova new on the SB list this week, Medvedeva climbs a few steps.
Next week GP NHK Trophy with Kostornaia, Zagitova and Samodurova.

Top 24 in the SB list, except juniors (J), are guaranteed at least one spot at the senior GP next year
Last year, to be in the Top 24 in the Seasons Best List you had to score 196.34.

Wow, I had no idea Zhenya and Anna were so close. Maybe rusnats will be more interesting than I thought

 

[Scott512]

Anything can be, maybe they will change the program.

But .. even on Rostelecom, the difference between the weak content of Zhenya and the maximum male set of Sasha in the end was less than 9 points.

In a short program, Zhenya can transfer combo to a bonus, then the amount will be +1.5 points.
A good 3Lz is another + 3 points.
FCSp3 change to FCSp4 is still about + 0.8 points.
3S + 3Lo transfer to bonus = +0.7 points.

1.5 + 3 + 0.7 + 0.8 = 6

The Federation can easily give the world champion at the Russian Championship an extra 3 PCS points in two programs.

This is ....

The end
Beautiful friend
This is the end
My only friend, the end

Of our elaborate plans, the end
Of everything that stands, the end
No safety or surprise, the end
I'll never look into ETERI eyes again


This I calculated the difference with Zhenya.

In GPF, Sasha will compete with more serious rivals.
Imagine if Anna adds 4F or prepares 3A earlier.
Or if the judges give Alena the deserved maximum components.
Also, there is Alina with her 82 + 155 and Rika with 3A and components.

The sky on Sasha’s head is not as cloudless as it seems to us now.

very interesting points to say the least. I don't want Sasha being regarded as a male anymore in any way shape or form. It won't be good for her. The media did the same thing with Michelle Wie in golf andto say that did not work out would be an understatement and to say that hurt Michelle's future and career would be an understatement as well. Let Sasha win as much as she can in the women's ranks and she is a historic skater no matter what.

I guess some were surprised Zhenya only finished nine points behind Sasha. but I look at it like this if Zhenya can still score 225 points and then adds a quad next season she will be in play for a lot of medals.

 

[Mishaminion]

I don’t quite like the tone of this post but I agree with the scores argument at least. I have never seen Bradie skate like this before. And today, in my opinion, there was not a single area in which she was better than Nugumanova and even Sakhanovich. I can only judge from the FS since I haven‘t seen the SP but today she just was not good at all. Nugumanova on the other hand had a great skate. Her jumps are problematic but her interpretation was sublime. So are her spins. Based on the FS, I would have had it:

Kurakova (what a ray of sunshine that girl is btw. Never fails to make me happy watching her)
Nugumanova
Sakhanovich
Tennell

The SP might change this, however.

Of course I also have to add that Bradie‘s not.. well, my favorite skater whereas Sima for example is someone I really like. Nothing against Bradie at all, she seems like a lovely person but I just don‘t get her style of skating. I think the only program of hers I‘ve liked was her SP last year. So I might be a bit biased against her when assessing things like PCS. But even taking PCS out of account, I thought she was quite handily beaten today by three girls. Just my opinion, though.

I‘m not upset at all, though as Nugumanova looked quite happy with her skate and placement too, so I‘m happy enough.

Bradie had a decent SP (with a couple of tech calls only) and was about 4 points ahead of Katia, 6 ahead of Liza and almost 14 ahead of Sima.

Italy's Alessia Tornaghi confused things somewhat by placing 13th in the SP but soaring into 2nd in the FS

 

[Jontor]

I‘m not upset at all, though as Nugumanova looked quite happy with her skate and placement too, so I‘m happy enough.

Agreed. If Nugumanova is happy I am happy.

If only though... This tech panel was one of the harshest this season and every single 5-10 degrees off in the landing was called UR. Isn't it still 45 degrees maximum? I can't help but wonder if Nugumanova had skated at a competition where the judging were more lenient how many URs she would have got?

I don't like it when competitions are decided by the tech panel. After all, we compare competitions with each other, and there is a Seasons Best list.

 

[Tolstoj]

What is this #$%£ about Eteri just working the system or that RusFed have the opinion you think they should/do? I doubt RusFed would want to try to prevent the technical prowess of many of their skaters from being rewarded.

Eteri is training talented girls to push the sport forward, to dismiss what she and her skaters do as simply "working the system" is disrespectful IMO.

What i'm saying is that, Eteri works by the rules and in the position she is at the moment, she is fine.

It is not disrespectful since i recall Daniil Markovich himself saying it in an interview (when he used the comparison about Plushenko losing Lysacek because the rules at the time rewarded certain things more than others which is true)

Look they will try to adapt all their skaters to the new rules, and i think Sasha could look more artistic with a different kind of free skate, but if she is not going to win because the new rules will penalize only jumpers, then they will adapt the next generation better for the new judging system.

What i sense though, is that all these proposals you'll hear in 2020 will use this season as an excuse to make those changes if Trusova keeps getting better components while winning, and they will minimize the whole phenomenon as "they only win because of the jumps, artistry doesn't matter much" which is incorrect, it is setting a bad narrative.

Russia could have come cleaner to avoid certain discussions, especially with the men's event imo. (cause frankly Trusova was going to win even with 55-60 on PCS)

 

[Amei]

The quads at the end jumped only Sasha and Sonya.

ALL men could not cope with this difficult task.

Well most of the time skaters tend to be a bit easier in their jump content in exhibitions; its poor lighting and unnecessary risk and wear/tear on their bodies. If Sasha truly wants to make it to 2 Olympics (I'm assuming as a singles skater) she should really look at minimizing her quads in competitions that she doesn't need them in, especially something like the 4S were she has nasty falls and in exhibitions to reduce the wear and tear on her body. But then again given the Russian ladies field I understand a skater wanting to 'go for broke' at the top while they can

 

[Tolstoj]

Yes. BTW when I saw it and the results then, it came to my mind whether the same people, who were complaining that Sasha won Rostelecom Cup with two falls, will object the same in this case. Bradie with two falls still won over Liza with more or less clean skate. I know she was in the lead by 6 points over Liza after SP, but still it wasn't good skate by her at all, so I've expected at least Liza would get over her, maybe even Sima.

Nugumanova did her job, the judges really tried to hammer down the russian ladies at this event.

They were super harsh on Liza's triples but called all clean Kurakova's triples which were even more underrotated. (i'm sorry, i even like the girl, but it is true)

Liza was still happy cause at the end of the day there was even the risk of not medalling here, and i think the goal was to medal since Bradie was expected to win and she did it.

 

[Fluture]

Agreed. If Nugumanova is happy I am happy.

If only though... This tech panel was one of the harshest this season and every single 5-10 degrees off in the landing was called UR. Isn't it still 45 degrees maximum? I can't help but wonder if Nugumanova had skated at a competition where the judging were more lenient how many URs she would have got?

I don't like it when competitions are decided by the tech panel. After all, we compare competitions with each other, and there is a Seasons Best list.

Well, to be quite fair, Nugumanova does UR a lot. It‘s evident in every of her jumps that they are a little short of rotation. And unfortunately, once you‘ve got that reputation it doesn‘t seem to go away. So, I can imagine she sometimes gets dinged for jumps others might not have been. It’s unfair but judges and the technical panel are human too.

I like her skating, she‘s a musical and refined and beautiful skater. Her spins are great as well. I don‘t even mind her jumps that much. She URs a lot but her URs are some of the smoothest I‘ve ever seen. I don‘t know if that makes sense but I look at her jumps and see the UR and yet the flow is still good most of the times. Of course this will still be reflected negatively in the scores but I‘ve never had a case where I‘d give an URed jump positive GOE if I could lol. I say if only too. If only she could fix some of these URs, she would be a real contender. Maybe not for the big competitions but she could do more senior B‘s and win some golds there. I was happy for her bronze here. I wish the score was a bit higher too but at least she had a decent skate and medaled! Maybe she will get some more chances in the future. Won‘t be a GP but maybe some other Challengers. Rusfed really should use all their spots next season... but who am I kidding they won‘t anyway.

 

[Mishaminion]

What i'm saying is that, Eteri works by the rules and in the position she is at the moment, she is fine.

It is not disrespectful since i recall Daniil Markovich himself saying it in an interview (when he used the comparison about Plushenko losing Lysacek because the rules at the time rewarded certain things more than others which is true)

They will try to adapt all their skaters to the new rules, but if Trusova is not going to win because the new rules will penalize only jumpers, then they will adapt the next generation better for the new judging system.

What i sense though, is that a lot of the proposals you'll hear in 2020 will use this season as an excuse to make those changes if Trusova keeps getting better components while winning, and they will minimize the whole phenomenon as "they only win because of the jumps, artistry doesn't matter much" which is incorrect.

Somehow I don't think the rules will change much.

The overwhelming evidence of viewership suggests this ladies revolution is very well supported.

The ISU are interested in the growth of the sport not the outcries of the minority who want to limit that

 

[katymay]

Sasha is winning because she’s landing those quads. You shouldn’t let the posts get to you. There were similar complaints about Patrick Chen winning when he was falling all over the place also. It’s not specific to a country or a coach. There are fans that prefer clean skates and don’t feel falls should be rewarded. I have yet to see a post blaming the skater vs the judging system. These complaints are not new or skater specific, but I can see how someone new to skating or a skater specific fan would see it that way.

Let her enjoy her success this season with quads.

As more and more women do quads, there will be more and more splatfests-hey-just like the men.
One thing I suspect though, is that if a skater is known to land quads (You and Khira), but they don't inlcude them-I think it hurts their score in an imperceptible way. I really believe that judges respect the fact that Sasha has ALWAYS had the courage to try them, even when she would be better off to leave them out. (EG When she was a junior, and there were times she really really didn't need the quad to win, and trying one would tend to hurt rather than help).
Tanith was really harsh toward Trusova on the NBC broadcast today-as was Johnny. They were just...savage today. It sort of took me by surprise.

 

[Amei]

As more and more women do quads, there will be more and more splatfests-hey-just like the men.
One thing I suspect though, is that if a skater is known to land quads (You and Khira), but they don't inlcude them-I think it hurts their score in an imperceptible way. I really believe that judges respect the fact that Sasha has ALWAYS had the courage to try them, even when she would be better off to leave them out. (EG When she was a junior, and there were times she really really didn't need the quad to win, and trying one would tend to hurt rather than help).
Tanith was really harsh toward Trusova on the NBC broadcast today-as was Johnny. They were just...savage today. It sort of took me by surprise.

I actually disagree on Tanith and Johnny - they applauded her jumping ability but pointed out her deficiency with other aspects of her skating, as they did last week Shcherbakova;

 

[bubblecherry]

But you are mistaken about hating. Especially to Zhenya Medvedeva. She brought us more medals than I can raise. Why should I hate her?

In the story of Eteri, I am on the side of Eteri. But I also understand the little touchy girl who listened to her enemies who used her in their games.

I am very happy about her victory yesterday.
But if Zhenya is wrong, if she goes the wrong way, then I will criticize her.

She is mine, she must be the best of the best.

All I will say to this, is no, Zhenya is not "yours." We all have our opinions about what's good and bad, but it's important to remember we have no authority over these people's lives or careers. I also do not find this to be a healthy way to view your relations to a skater or a sport, but that is just my view.

 

[Mishaminion]

I actually disagree on Tanith and Johnny - they applauded her jumping ability but pointed out her deficiency with other aspects of her skating, as they did last week Shcherbakova;

They take it too far though, and I feel they wouldn't do the same with an American skater either. They dont go on and on about Bradie or Mariah's weaknesses.

 

[el henry]

They take it too far though, and I feel they wouldn't do the same with an American skater either. They dont go on and on about Bradie or Mariah's weaknesses.

Johnny *adores* Russian skaters, and they definitely criticize American skaters. Oh boy do they ever

 

[Jontor]

Interesting discussion this about technical vs artistry.

For me these things mix. I tend to like technical skaters the most, but there always needs to be some kind of artistry in there. I also think that if you do the technical bits good it makes it artistic to me. One of the things I love about Zagitova is when she does her 3Lz3Lo combo perfectly. It is so beautiful to watch. That combo alone won her the Olympic gold for me. And I've watched Shcherbakova's long program from Lombardia and Skate America many many times because I think they are so beautiful with the amazing tech it has.

I have yet to warm up to Trusova, she still lacks in the artistry department imo, but she is getting there. And her tech is amazing.

 

[el henry]

I’m not sure whether anyone here said anything like that, that “she’s not russian”, or that “training in Canada is “disrespectful”.
If you could provide username of anyone who said that training in Canada is disrespectful or that she’s not russian, I’d be thankful.
And as a person who strongly opposes people using the phrase “some people”, it’s surprising to see you use “they”, who are “they”? By your own definition, those are Unicorns?

I don’t know whether people “follow” a coach for the sake of following a coach, but sometimes people happen to like certain types of programs and performances, a certain style, which might be because those skaters belong to the same team.
Some might like Virtue-Moir and P-C with M-F because the like the work, innovativeness and style of M-F which finds itself in the work she does with her students.

Sometimes I don’t like skaters with one coach, because the programs they do or the skating they show just isn’t to my liking, and sometimes they move to another coach and experience and major change in their style and skating and draw you more in.

Case in point, some people might have disliked Evgenia’s skating during her times with Eteri, and really started enjoying her skating when she moved to Brian, because her new style speaks to them more. It might be possible that they disliked her as a skater before and really started liking her after her change. Therefore, they might show more appreciation towards the pairing of Evgenia-Orser, than Evgenia-Eteri.

It’s not about “the coach”, it’s about the joint work of the coach and the skaters, which sometimes makes people like them (skaters and coaches) as a team.

Yes, I should not have used the word "disrespectful" without a quote. I do remember much criticism about an innocuous phrase like "Canada is my home now" (no kidding, it's not like she can train at TCC and live in Russia) with regard to whether Zhenya considered herself Russian. At this point, I would refer you to the archives. But I will look and come back with the cites, depending on how terribly the Patriots treat the Eagles.

I tend to think that choreographers have their own style more than coaches? I adore Rohene Ward, for example, and he has done choreo with many different coaches, but almost every skating fan would recognize a Rohene program.

I would love to see him do choreo for any of the Russian ladies.