2019-20 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[jenm]

^wow. Condescension and rudeness at its finest.

 

[Jontor]

Maybe, but that problem did not occur with Eteri's girls or with quads in ladies competitions generally, this exists in men's skating since multiple quads started to be jumped in one program. Rescoring of the elements done in 2018 lowered the BV and rised GOE, which seems right to me as it supports better execution, but the problem is that it also supports more subjectivity in evaluation of the elements. I think that contemporary maximum 50 % of the BV for GOE is more or less OK, but I also think that this should be the upper limit. Medium quality four quads is still a great effort to me, also the one who can do four medium quality quads usually does high quality triples

I think the changes made in 2018 with the +5/-5 GOE was good. This also made it clear that it is not worth it to try a quad if you can't land it.

A 4Lz with a fall gets a score of 4.75. That is like a 3Lz with GOE -2
A 4Lz with an UR and GOE -2 is scored abt 7.36. That is like a 3Lz with a GOE +2,5

So it's not worth it if you don't land the quad. They are highly risky and they can cost more than they bring.
This is very clear in the Men's competition where skaters like Jason Brown without a quad is frequenlty on the podium, because of the quad mistakes the others have done.
And I think Kostornaia is an example in the Ladies, that you can compete with the quadsters. She clearly won the GPF without a quad.

 

[ruga]

I think the changes made in 2018 with the +5/-5 GOE was good. This also made it clear that it is not worth it to try a quad if you can't land it.

A 4Lz with a fall gets a score of 4.75. That is like a 3Lz with GOE -2
A 4Lz with an UR and GOE -2 is scored abt 7.36. That is like a 3Lz with a GOE +2,5

So it's not worth it if you don't land the quad. They are highly risky and they can cost more than they bring.
This is very clear in the Men's competition where skaters like Jason Brown without a quad is frequenlty on the podium, because of the quad mistakes the others have done.

Well, it's also worth looking at what elements do these quads replace. The first quads usually replace double jumps (for example, Trusova repleced 2T, 2Lo and 2A with 4T, 4Lz, 4F). It's a gain of 8-10 points and even perfectly landed doubles give less than downgraded quad with fall. Another situation is when repeated quad replaces another repeated triple (Shcherbakova replaces her 3F with 4Lz). A bit riskier, but if a skater can land a quad in combination, that quad is usually stable. And finally, quads just replace triples in general, just how Trusova's 4S replaced her 3F. Probably the riskiest of all situations, and that's where good GOE can make a difference.

I actually think that sometimes in Men two good quads and all 4 levels could easily put a skater at the top 3. But athletes are constantly striving for bigger difficulty and that creates all these splatfest competitions. And it will be interesting to see whether Ladies' quad introduction will be similar to Men's.

 

[flanker]

I think the changes made in 2018 with the +5/-5 GOE was good. This also made it clear that it is not worth it to try a quad if you can't land it.

A 4Lz with a fall gets a score of 4.75. That is like a 3Lz with GOE -2
A 4Lz with an UR and GOE -2 is scored abt 7.36. That is like a 3Lz with a GOE +2,5

So it's not worth it if you don't land the quad. They are highly risky and they can cost more than they bring.
This is very clear in the Men's competition where skaters like Jason Brown without a quad is frequenlty on the podium, because of the quad mistakes the others have done.
And I think Kostornaia is an example in the Ladies, that you can compete with the quadsters. She clearly won the GPF without a quad.

But with three 3As, which is nearly like a quad

With those high valued elements the margin can be misleading. Aliona won GPF for about 7 points over Anna and 8 points over Sasha, which could be compensated just by one clean quad, e.g. is Anna wouldn't fell on her 4F, she would have probably won. IN only triples era similar difference of just one jump would have been about 3-4 points, now with quads it is those 7-8 pojnts, which looks huge, but it is still one clean element. That's why e.g. in men's competition even 8 points margin after SP doesn't mean big advantage necessarilly, now it is in ladies competitions as well, as we could have seen in RusNats.

 

[flanker]

I actually think that sometimes in Men two good quads and all 4 levels could easily put a skater at the top 3. But athletes are constantly striving for bigger difficulty and that creates all these splatfest competitions. And it will be interesting to see whether Ladies' quad introduction will be similar to Men's.

So far I think it will be different, though I admit that sample we have is yet too small. But still I am pretty convinced that men often put quads into programs even when they have lower stability of some of them, while ladies will opt for quads only with high level of mastering that element.

 

[Alex65]

I think the changes made in 2018 with the +5/-5 GOE was good. This also made it clear that it is not worth it to try a quad if you can't land it.

A 4Lz with a fall gets a score of 4.75. That is like a 3Lz with GOE -2
A 4Lz with an UR and GOE -2 is scored abt 7.36. That is like a 3Lz with a GOE +2,5

So it's not worth it if you don't land the quad. They are highly risky and they can cost more than they bring.
This is very clear in the Men's competition where skaters like Jason Brown without a quad is frequenlty on the podium, because of the quad mistakes the others have done.
And I think Kostornaia is an example in the Ladies, that you can compete with the quadsters. She clearly won the GPF without a quad.

I agree that the change +/- 5 GOE was done correctly. But I do not agree with how this works in competition now. When the assessment of GOE becomes an instrument of subjective manipulation, complementing the subjective assessment of PCS. As an example, Alena and Anna and Sasha this year. A high PCS increases GOE, which cannot be explained by anything other than subjective judgment.

 

[Jontor]

So far I think it will be different, though I admit that sample we have is yet too small. But still I am pretty convinced that men often put quads into programs even when they have lower stability of some of them, while ladies will opt for quads only with high level of mastering that element.

Yes the sample is still too small to make any conclusions regarding Ladies. It will be interesting to see where it goes.
So far we've seen Liza and Rika this year. They both failed.
And Sasha has landed 16 quads in 7 competitions, but she has failed 7 times. So 16 landed quads out of 23 attempts is not that great really.
Anna's success rate has been excellent though.

 

[flanker]

Yes the sample is still too small to make any conclusions regarding Ladies. It will be interesting to see where it goes.
So far we've seen Liza and Rika this year. They both failed.
And Sasha has landed 16 quads in 7 competitions, but she has failed 7 times. So 16 landed quads out of 23 attempts is not that great really.
Anna's success rate has been excellent though.

Actually it is 17 of 24, it's 65 % clean quads, I've counted it here recently

 

[Jontor]

Actually it is 17 of 24, it's 65 % clean quads, I've counted it here recently

You're right! It's 17 landed out of 24. But doesn't that make it a success rate of 70%??

 

[flanker]

You're right! It's 17 landed out of 24. But doesn't that make it a success rate of 70%??

It was before RusNats. The success ratio was actually 16 of 20 which is 80 % actually (I wrote more than 75 % as I was too quick ). Then the RusNats came and the ratio dropped to 65 %, but it is different if the ratio would have been 65 % evenly distributed throughout the whole season or just because just one lousy competition that is spoiling the otherwise higher ratio. We will see next time.

 

[Arbitrary]

Do you see the point?

If quads landed everyone discuss quads.
If quads failed everyone discuss failed quads.
Much later some discuss PCS.

Here is the difference between pro-quad and no-quad programs.

 

[Mathman]

Wait, is it not obvious to you that an action that can be performed by only a few should be evaluated higher than an action that can be performed by the masses?

The part that is not obvious is this: the claim that all or most figure skating fans are drawn to skating solely or primarily because they like to see people jumping. To me, what is obvious is the contrary -- that there are many different kinds of fans with a variety of reasons why they enjoy the sport.

I think, for instance, that I could make a case that the most important aspect of figure skating, in terms of spectator involvement and satisfaction, is the music. I do not think that the sport would thrive if they eliminated the music and just had the skaters run through a sequence of jumps. (To me, it seems "obvious" that this would not make for a very interesting spectator sport -- but I don't claim to speak for everyone or to have special powers to discern what is "obvious" and what is not.)

As for the whether we like the new kids on the block or the oldies but goodies, that
is the best part. We can have our cake and eat it, too.

Make new friends, and keep the old.
One is silver and the other gold.

 

[Mathman]

Something tells me that for this to happen again, it needs to go back to those blessed times when a decent woman sat in the kitchen, when Theresa Weld "received reprimands" at the 1920 Olympics "for performing a single salchow jump because her skirt would fly up to her knees, creating an image deemed too risque", and Sonia's short skirt above the knees caused a furor....

Interesting how times change. Back then the chivalrous concern was to protect ladies' modesty. By the 1950s (and continuing to the present day) the gals were expected to compete in the shortest skirt possible, with plenty of illusion fabric to make it clear what they were selling. I am not sure whether this represents an advance toward the goal of gender equality or the opposite.

Gentlemen, on the other hand, must wear long trousers, no tights allowed, they can't show too much bare chest, etc. Chivalry is not dead -- it's just that now we must protect men's modesty rather than women's. Onward and upward.

What would truly be a step in the right direction would be for the ISU to enforce it's primary rule about costumes: "Skaters will compete in costumes appropriate to an athletic competition." (I am not holding my breath waiting for this to happen.)

 

[Vilord]

The discussions about quads and whether or not they are progress is really a question about what side of skatong you enjoy most the technical (jump) side or the more artistic. It clear that the evolution these last years have been harder technical which I enjoy but its ok if you dont. TSL (love or hate them...) have often said that they would like some sort of pro skaters competition scored more like 6.0 era where older skaters can compete and have greater focus on the artistry. I dont know if this is a soultion but I could see the use for alternative competetitions of some form.

But this is not really related to russian ladies and dont belong in this thread.
lastly, Good luck to Sinitsyna and Frolova at YOG!

 

[macy]

What is it about this thread that makes turns people into
"mean girls" tossing gratuitous insults at each other to no purpose.

As for me, I think this is enough of this particular thread. (I know, nobody cares. )

agree with you there. a few select posters can be extremely condescending and rude. if "nobody cared" we would not have this forum

 

[madmax]

I really don't get why some people think that the technical side of figure skating is all about the number of revolutions of the jumps.
I think it's only because it's the most basic aspect to see.
IMO, from the technical side, the number of revolutions is just as important as the the height, the lenght and the exit speed of a jump.
In my opinion a fair judging system should evaluate less a bad quadruple jump with an exit speed of 10 km/h compared to an amazing triple with an exit speed of almost 20 km/h (like Kamila Valieva did in JGPF).
And what about the bad skating? Some athletes always fight with their skates, so they do a lot of crossovers to regain poor speed. Am I wrong or this sport is called figure skating?
Alena Kostornaia in the SP in Torino skated nearly 20 meters on one foot with difficult steps approaching her triple axel and she managed to explode a jump with a distance of 2.65 m and an exit speed of 19.9 km/h (sic!).
Was that artistry or pure tecnique and athleticism?
I think that from the technical point of view, even the distance covered and the average speed should be valued much more.

 

[[email protected]]

I really don't get why some people think that the technical side of figure skating is all about the number of revolutions of the jumps.
I think it's only because it's the most basic aspect to see.
IMO, from the technical side, the number of revolutions is just as important as the the height, the lenght and the exit speed of a jump.
In my opinion a fair judging system should evaluate less a bad quadruple jump with an exit speed of 10 km/h compared to an amazing triple with an exit speed of almost 20 km/h (like Kamila Valieva did in JGPF).
And what about the bad skating? Some athletes always fight with their skates, so they do a lot of crossovers to regain poor speed. Am I wrong or this sport is called figure skating?
Alena Kostornaia in the SP in Torino skated nearly 20 meters on one foot with difficult steps approaching her triple axel and she managed to explode a jump with a distance of 2.65 m and an exit speed of 19.9 km/h (sic!).
Was that artistry or pure tecnique and athleticism?
I think that from the technical point of view, even the distance covered and the average speed should be valued much more.

I don't get your point. Alena and Kamila receive very big GOE for their beautiful triples. That's why a quadless Alena won the GPF and could win the Rusnats unless she had 2 shaky landings. That's why Kamila without a 3A and quads won over Alysa with 3A and quads. I think that the current system is quite balanced.

 

[el henry]

I disagree. Objectively, in the ladies' discipline (and mens'), quads are progress, just as triples were. This is why: technical and overall progress is described by how the sport is judged which is the entire basis of competitive figure skating (in these disciplines). Jumps are by far the highest scoring elements. Collectively, they contribute to a much higher percentage of a segment score than any other criteria; spins are a very far second, and each of SS, TR, PE, CO, and INT only contribute to a maximum of 16 points in the FS. Even a skater who is just jumping doubles would have the majority of their score come from jumps with maximum GOE.

The difference of opinion comes from whether this is appreciated by viewers, and if this is progress artistically. Of course jumping quads doesn't mean a skater is progressing in spins, skating skills, performance, etc. But in terms of progress within the competitive sport as a whole, I don't see how it is not. The ISU has provided a scoring system by which all competitive skaters are judged, so the definition of progress would have to fit into the system as well. While the judging system has always been controversial, it is the only judging system that exists right now. Now if we're talking about progress in other disciplines, then there are other rules. And if we're talking about progress in shows, galas, and professional careers, that's a different story as well.

Thank you for addressing the issues directly and in a polite manner. I will try to do the same.

I understand that people have varying opinions as to whether jobs are important, whether the increase in revolutions for jumps represents progress, and that some fans will want to see more revolutions and jobs. And I have tried to acknowledge it without snark or without rudeness. My issue of course could never be with someone else’s personal taste: that is their personal taste and more power to them. :agree:

I do contest that this matter of personal taste is accepted as a fact by all skating fans, and when I see such a contention in the threads of the forum where disagreement and discussion is appropriate, like this one, I feel that it should be pointed out that it is not in my view a “fact”. I do not initiate these conversations, but when they occur, I will feel as free to offer my opinion is anyone else on this Board. I think that’s why we have forums

Of course in the current scoring system, the ISU gives greater value to jumps with more revolutions. I am afraid that that does not affect my feeling as to whether it is progress or not, but I admit that that is a factor that could supports someone’s contention that jumps represent progress.

 

[Scott512]

Maybe it's time to break figure skating up into 2 separate sports artistic and the technical competition with all the quads and triple axels. If not 2 Sports then have two medal ceremonies one for artistic and one for technical. Then an overall winner. Zhenya tied Alina in the free skate at The Last Winter Olympics and they both could have gotten small gold medals and then Alina would have been the overall winner as well as the winner of the short program. Long-term ladies figure skating needs more than a couple or three or four top girls and then there's everybody else. Of course it's even worse with the men where the domination has been by one man in recent years and now another.

It is what it is but I would like to see the sport to involve more people on the ice and involve more fans. If you're not a fan of 4A Zhenya Liza or Rika then it's almost useless being a fan. It's like no one else has a prayer of a chance and everybody knows it.

 

[Amei]

I don't get your point. Alena and Kamila receive very big GOE for their beautiful triples. That's why a quadless Alena won the GPF and could win the Rusnats unless she had 2 shaky landings. That's why Kamila without a 3A and quads won over Alysa with 3A and quads. I think that the current system is quite balanced.

Kostornaia won the GPF without a quad because she can do a higher point value triple axel to Anna's double axel - if each skater had been able to do their most difficult jump in the SP then its highly unlikely that Kostornaia won. *Though each of them knew the rules and Anna could have learned a triple axel sooner (she is learning it).

She almost won Russian Nationals without a quad and 2 shaky landings because of extremely favorable scoring for her. Kostornaia had 2 jumps with bad landings: her 3F+3T was given 1.29 points GOE and on her double axel and got .90 GOE, so positive GOE on both jumping passes. Anna had 1 flawed landing on a harder jump and got a negative GOE.