2019-20 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[silveruskate]

Almost no congratulations to Aliona who just made one of the biggest achievements of her career is the main problem here. She didn't make the scores.

Thank you for the great performances from all of the 3A, and to you Aliona for brilliant performances and achieving one of your life dreams!

 

[colormyworld240]

My post was about the lutzes because you claimed that no one had a proof for Anna‘s edge problems. I provided a video. Anna‘s PCS and Aliona‘s 3A are a different matter. I haven‘t said anything about my opinion being a fact other than the lutz edge which, yes, based on video evidence of multiple occasions and watching live today, I consider as such. This is what I replied to and you chose to avoid it by talking about the 3A and PCS instead.

As for the 3A... I‘m assuming you mean the first one and the axis indeed was a bit wonky and the landing not as beautifully held as usually. But to me it looked fully rotated, both in real-time and on video, that’s all I can say. Judges agreed on that. Whether that is right or not, who knows, we probably both don‘t. As for PCS, I don‘t quite agree on that either. Anna is closing the gap and rightly so but she‘s, as lovely as she is, still not completely there yet. Even with better interpretation than Aliona today, Aliona‘s maturity and simply presence on the ice, make her the better overall skater in my eyes. Anna seems still a bit juniorish but I‘m sure she‘ll grow out of that soon. She‘s an artist at heart and truly musical.

I assumed your previous comment was replying to my "why is one opinion fact and another conspiracy", so I responded as such (that while some think Anna's lutz should have caused the loss, others think that Anna's PCS/UR nor UR calls should be enough. But anyway, I was saying Anna's inside edge doesn't touch the ice as she picks for her lutz. Her lutz is sometimes flat, but I've never seen her flutz. In the IG link you provided, the blade is flat. I think a ! call doesn't affect BV, correct me if I'm wrong? I'm not sure what the GOE ceiling would be for a call. But Anna gets +3 average or less on her lutz so she probably doesn't get the GOE bullet for good take off. She gets them for height/distance, excellent air and landing positions, and transitions in and out. Those are enough to give her the +3 and maybe even +4 GOEs, so I don't think not giving it a ! was unfair (in terms of the numerical score she got for the jumping pass). Now if she was on the inside edge, an e call would result in a reduction in the score as it reduces the BV.

As for Alenas 3A, I'm talking about UR. Not the axis because that goes into air/body position in GOE and not an UR call. And the wobbly landing contributes to GOE as well, but not UR. I think she did get dinged in GOE for the axis and air position. If you look at where the toe lands on the ice, I'd say that was at the same degree of rotation as Anna's 4F. But Anna only got the call. I think Alena looks more mature, but maturity is not a PCS component. Interpretation is based on the music and Anna was on every beat. And performance is about selling the program, she was in character and expressive. Maturity as a component in interpretation would make sense if the music was something like Piaf or Lara Fabian love songs, but that wasn't the case. If she's an artist and truly musical, then that is what performance and interpretation are.

 

[silveruskate]

The ISU Technical Handbook says "take-off edge", not toe-pick touching the ice edge.

https://www.isu.org/figure-skating/rules/sandp-handbooks-faq

 

[Mishaminion]

Almost no congratulations to Aliona who just made one of the biggest achievements of her career is the main problem here. She didn't make the scores.

Thank you for the great performances from all of the 3A, and to you Aliona for brilliant performances and achieving one of your life dreams!

Thankyou!!!!

That's what annoys me so much!

The amount of disrespect for the winner even if people do not agree with it is sad.

I would be just as annoyed if Anna won and people started to complain.

It's very unfair on the skater who did win by doing the best they could and didn't do anything wrong themselves even if people think the judges did.

 

[dunffvanstorn]

So, I have print screened all of Anna’s and Alyona’s takouts from their lutzes, but I don’t know how to post pictures here, so If somebody taught me, I could. Anna’s are flat/slightly inside and Aliona’s are slightly outside.

 

[Fluture]

I assumed your previous comment was replying to my "why is one opinion fact and another conspiracy", so I responded as such (that while some think Anna's lutz should have caused the loss, others think that Anna's PCS/UR nor UR calls should be enough. But anyway, I was saying Anna's inside edge doesn't touch the ice as she picks for her lutz. Her lutz is sometimes flat, but I've never seen her flutz. In the IG link you provided, the blade is flat. I think a ! call doesn't affect BV, correct me if I'm wrong? I'm not sure what the GOE ceiling would be for a call. But Anna gets +3/4 on her lutz so she probably doesn't get the GOE bullet for good take off. She gets them for height/distance, excellent air and landing positions, and transitions in and out. Those are enough to give her the +3/4 GOEs, so I don't think not giving it a ! was unfair (in terms of the numerical score she got for the jumping pass).

As for Alenas 3A, I'm talking about UR. Not the axis because that goes into air/body position in GOE and not an UR call. And the wobbly landing contributes to GOE as well, but not UR. I think she did get dinged in GOE for the axis and air position. If you look at where the toe lands on the ice, I'd say that was at the same degree of rotation as Anna's 4F. But Anna only got the call. I think Alena looks more mature, but maturity is not a PCS component. Interpretation is based on the music and Anna was on every beat. And performance is about selling the program, she was in character and expressive. Maturity as a component in interpretation would make sense if the music was something like Piaf or Lara Fabian love songs, but that wasn't the case. If she's an artist and truly musical, then that is what performance and interpretation are.

A ! call affects GOE. Either way, my comment was only showing that Anna doesn‘t have a true lutz. I haven‘t seen a true flutz from her either so far, though. But it‘s hard to argue that Anna was underscored technically when she did five (that‘s quite a number!) of lutzes and none had a correct edge.

I watched the replay on the German channel on TV only (no idea if the angles are the same for the ISU one as well) and it showed both Anna‘s 4F and Aliona‘s 3A in slow-motion and to me the rotation on the latter looked better. Again, we can argue all we want about it and no one will know who was correct in the end. All I want is basically for people to stop being all like: Anna deserved to win!! every time Aliona wins something. It‘s frustrating for someone who‘s an Aliona fan but also loves the other girls. I knew this was going to happen before the season but it makes me sad.

As for PCS, it‘s hard to explain but if you look at Aliona and Anna and see them take the warm-up next to each other, it‘s like there‘s a worlds difference in their skating. Anna is captivating and charming but Aliona has that sort of quality that makes even subdued performances spectacular. The crowd loved her today. People just cannot help but watch her and be transfixed. Even critics of the Russian girls were amazed by her. Like it or not, that counts for performance. The main goal of a performance is literally making people watch. The only area where I maybe could see Anna beating Aliona in PCS at the moment, is Interpretation. But that‘s one out of five. Anna‘s PCS are growing but imo, she needs more time. She‘s not complete yet. Even Aliona isn‘t yet. They‘re both too young, a certain maturity comes with age. Maybe maturity itself isn‘t a PCS category but it factors into each and every part other than maybe skating skills, which is more technical.

 

[colormyworld240]

A ! call affects GOE. Either way, my comment was only showing that Anna doesn‘t have a true lutz. I haven‘t seen a true flutz from her either so far, though. But it‘s hard to argue that Anna was underscored technically when she did five (that‘s quite a number!) of lutzes and none had a correct edge.

I watched the replay on the German channel on TV only (no idea if the angles are the same for the ISU one as well) and it showed both Anna‘s 4F and Aliona‘s 3A in slow-motion and to me the rotation on the latter looked better. Again, we can argue all we want about it and no one will know who was correct in the end. All I want is basically for people to stop being all like: Anna deserved to win!! every time Aliona wins something. It‘s frustrating for someone who‘s an Aliona fan but also loves the other girls. I knew this was going to happen before the season but it makes me sad.

As for PCS, it‘s hard to explain but if you look at Aliona and Anna and see them take the warm-up next to each other, it‘s like there‘s a worlds difference in their skating. Anna is captivating and charming but Aliona has that sort of quality that makes even subdued performances spectacular. The crowd loved her today. People just cannot help but watch her and be transfixed. Even critics of the Russian girls were amazed by her. Like it or not, that counts for performance. The main goal of a performance is literally making people watch. The only area where I maybe could see Anna beating Aliona in PCS at the moment, is Interpretation. But that‘s one out of five. Anna‘s PCS are growing but imo, she needs more time. She‘s not complete yet. Even Aliona isn‘t yet. They‘re both too young, a certain maturity comes with age. Maybe maturity itself isn‘t a PCS category but it factors into each and every part other than maybe skating skills, which is more technical.

What difference would it have made here? She got an average of +3 for her lutz, which is what I think she deserves. She only got the bullets that she actually had in her jump, and she lost those for her drawbacks. GOE is a cumulation of the good points and bad points, she's not going to get 0/+1 GOE if she hits many positive points. I think she didn't get the additional +2 specifically for her take-off. I'd get it if she had an inside edge, because then she'd deserve further reduction. Or if she had gotten +5s on all her lutzes, that would be a problem because of takeoff or !. But +3 seems reasonable to me, and I don't think it should be lower ! call or not. The only place I thought Anna was underscored technically was her 4Lz was not <<. Her -3Lo was under. Her 4F was borderline, but it was Amano so I thought that was fair as well. I also think that Alena's 3A was under if judged at the same standard (not just as Anna, but everyone else in the competition), but again we can disagree about that. Because the final score was close, these would have made a difference in placements not counting PCS. This is why I think Anna should have won Europeans. I would have the same opinion if were Sasha instead of Alena. Actually, I thought Sasha's combo was borderline and not called either but that wouldn't affect placement as the point difference was so big on both sides. This doesn't apply to every competition where Alena beats here. I agreed with Alena winning GPF (maybe closer as Anna's PCS was much lower than it was here with an equally committed performance), JGPF, and placing above Anna at JNats.

As for PCS, I think everyone can agree Alena's SS are better, but being transfixed depends on person to person, as we've seen on this page. I wasn't in the audience so I couldn't tell who the crowd loved more, but from my screen I could see Anna was performing her program much more. From reactions, I can see Ted seems always completely into Anna's expressiveness, and Alena's. And in the press conference someone singled out Anna's FS for not only being technically impressive but also artistically brilliant and asked her to explain how she went about her performing her program and music. SS aside, because this is Anna's weakest area imo, what do you think she needs to improve in PE/IN, or even TR (besides holding things longer as that's her choreography so she can't really change it)? I thought she was performing in every inch of her body through her entire program and as far as I can tell from your recaps you thought so too. So how is she to improve to score higher there (or even the same as Alena's performance today)? How can she look more mature besides actually changing how she looks?

 

[NadezhdaNadya]

I think it is annoying that Anna declares lutzes and flips in her programs, but jumps them the same way. Shouldn't her 4F be judged as repetition?

 

[skatenewbie]

Oh...now I am very conflicted because I am hoping Mariah actually medals at 4CC!

She did not need medal to surpass Sasha though. If Sasha end up in 2nd to last group in SP it will hurt her more especially if she did not have 3A ready by that time

 

[Elucidus]

The ISU Technical Handbook says "take-off edge", not toe-pick touching the ice edge.

https://www.isu.org/figure-skating/rules/sandp-handbooks-faq

Takeoff is a process - not only the last moment of leaving ice. "Toe-pick touching the ice" is part of that process. Proof? Watch ISU jumps educational videos - takeoff there showed as a long process - both by inscriptions and voice of narrator.
Therefore the rule about edges is as ambiguous as it can get - since no exact moment or its duration is determined clearly for assessing an edge. And all or almost all skater ever existing - change the edge in a lutz just before leaving the ice to flat or inside.

Thankyou!!!!

That's what annoys me so much!

The amount of disrespect for the winner even if people do not agree with it is sad.

I would be just as annoyed if Anna won and people started to complain.

It's very unfair on the skater who did win by doing the best they could and didn't do anything wrong themselves even if people think the judges did.

Believe me - they wouldn't. Even Alena herself was extremely surprised to see that she won. She knew that she didn't deserve the win. Everyone were surprised. Ok, some people here would be sad about her loss - but that's it. There wouldn't be such massive indignation - that's for sure. People can sense the rigged scores even without deep knowledge of rules - do not underestimate public opinion.

I think it is annoying that Anna declares lutzes and flips in her programs, but jumps them the same way. Shouldn't her 4F be judged as repetition?

No, it shouldn't. Her 4F has slight inside edge, while her lutzes has flat edges. While very close - they still qualify as different jumps. Moreover, she often can't rotate her flip enough EXACTLY because she jumps it not from flat edge - and it gives her less time for prerotation before leaving the ice. Therefore on the landing she has more inside torque which results in a crooked exit - which differs from her lutz exits.

 

[Elaine]

Even Alena herself was extremely surprised to see that she won. She knew that she didn't deserve the win. Everyone were surprised.

No, she was surprised because she didn't know Anna's score and how many jumps Anna underrotated. Not because she knew that she didn't deserve the win. She most likely just assumed that Anna had gone clean or cleanish so thought she had to be 100% clean to beat her. In the end she wasn't 100% clean but neither was Anna as she assumed.

Don't see things as you want to see and more importantly do not say like it is a fact.

Alyona was the rightful winner. It wasn't the best way to get the win like she did at GPF where she did go perfectly clean, but here she made less mistakes than others and it's just another way to win.

 

[KOBOT37]

That Lutz is ! at most, definitely not e.

Flip as far as I see had around 3.75 turns

 

[NadezhdaNadya]

Sorry, I do not want to be rude, but Anna has horrific and atrocious technique. For the life of me I do not understand why some people prefer her to Alyona.
Alyona is a queen!

 

[KOBOT37]

Anyway, the results of Europeans are definitely concerning for Russian ladies FS generally and Team Tutberidze particularly. (before anybody jumps, they weren't going to lose to anybody here so they won all the medals before the skate).

Alena is good but she will never be as dominant as Anna and especially Alexandra can be, she isn't in league of her own against for example, Rika(especially if she land 4S) and to make matters worse, she seems to be getting worse.

Anna will get tons of calls by 'tough' judges and considering the trend, will get every questionable (like 4F yesterday) calls judged against her, to win she needs to land 3 quads and I don't think she has stamina for that.

And only god knows what is wrong with Alexandra, if this goes on like this, not only Rika but even few other ladies have shot at beating her.

I doubt that is what Eteri hoped for before the worlds or Russfed wanted, Eteri and Co have tons of work to do, Especially with Alexandra.

 

[Arbitrary]

I doubt that is what Eteri hoped for before the worlds or Russfed wanted, Eteri and Co have tons of work to do, Especially with Alexandra.

The amount of work to do is enormous regardless the scores. Even doing all properly there is always a place to improve.

Anna and Aliona will go to Worlds. Even with this level of readiness they are contenders for medals. Sasha is likely grounded if RusFed decides in favor of Med, Tukt or even Zag (Alina is being the last resort).
Sasha is not ready functionally today, but she may improve in a month. Who knows?

 

[Azikin]

Sasha is likely grounded if RusFed decides in favor of Med, Tukt or even Zag (Alina is being the last resort).

LOL, I don't think so.

 

[SkateSkates]

Congrats to Aliona, Anna and Sasha for sweeping the Euros podium!

All three looked a bit tired here - I hope they have time to rest and recover, and then ramp up for worlds. You can’t be in peak form the entire season, so if there was one competition to be a little “down” for, Euros definitely made the most sense. As we could see, there was no risk of not medaling and also no risk of not qualifying for future events (like GPs to make the final or Nationals to make worlds).

Sasha and Aliona seem to be dealing with some puberty related changes so hoping they can get their timing and confidence back over the next 6ish weeks. Anna I think was just lacking a bit of strength/stamina - hopefully she can add a bit of muscle to help with this.

 

[SkatingFan9]

The amount of work to do is enormous regardless the scores. Even doing all properly there is always a place to improve.

Anna and Aliona will go to Worlds. Even with this level of readiness they are contenders for medals. Sasha is likely grounded if RusFed decides in favor of Med, Tukt or even Zag (Alina is being the last resort).
Sasha is not ready functionally today, but she may improve in a month. Who knows?

You can’t be serious? Maybe it’s what you’re hoping for, but the reality is way different, sorry to tell you.

 

[KOBOT37]

The amount of work to do is enormous regardless the scores. Even doing all properly there is always a place to improve.

Anna and Aliona will go to Worlds. Even with this level of readiness they are contenders for medals. Sasha is likely grounded if RusFed decides in favor of Med, Tukt or even Zag (Alina is being the last resort).
Sasha is not ready functionally today, but she may improve in a month. Who knows?

Interesting wording.

Med,Tukt or even Zag?!

Even?

There is only one argument in the world for Medvedeva going to the worlds and it's her bronze medal last year.

But then, Alina won gold at the same competition had better season(Last in Turin is still better than anybody who didn't get there ) and has higher ceiling.

p.s While, Alexandra fell behind her team mates she is still FAR ahead than anybody else in Russia, I fail to see single good reason to even consider replacing her, Sure she may lose to Rika, or even somebody else, but Liza has Already lost against the same competition this season, I won't even mention Medvedeva (who, frankly doesn't even belong to this conversation, she doesn't even deserve to be alternate)

 

[Edwin]

I just hope fans and media would not manage to pit the girls against one another.

Little chance of that, given the daily dynamics in the Khrustalniy rink. Three is a crowd they say, but one can be reasonably certain the training staff will keep any internal competition healthy and productive. Why invest in rivalries and dirty mind games?
Plus, there are always at least a half dozen more pupils out on the ice, group dynamics and general positive, goal oriented behaviour by everybody is more important.

Fans are nice to cheer for you, throw you plushies, but wield no power otherwise. Media, well, must of us know by now how the girls behave in press conferences where only accredited professional media is allowed in. The novelty has worn off by now, and it's boring questions getting boring answers. E-media, where every plebe can pretend?

Of course, when they grow older, more mature, start to think independently for themselves, their natural differences in character might get more pronounced.

I hope for Tutberidze's Terrific Trio of Awesomely Amazing Aces to close ranks one more time in the World Championships and let nobody pass by them. So ISU can declare 2019/2020 season as the first season in history where a trio of young skaters from one single rink were Undefeated.