Yuzuru Hanyu Will Compete With His 2017-18 SP & FS At 4CC

[4everchan]

the difference with yuzuru is that it is not the first time he repeats programs... and it's not like he used them for a couple seasons either... many skaters only learn ONE new program per year..... the issue here is not the fact that he keeps repeating programs is more that he doesn't give the fans NEW programs... so every time he brings back an oldie, people will complain.

I have been lucky to go to ACI where I have seen him skate twice... I would have liked to see something new.. but I will be 100% honest, I didn't like Ottonal-Origin... so I hope he brings Seimei for worlds where i will be attending the long...

 

[evasorange]

Sure. But in 2017-2018 he did it at ACI, Rostelecom and Oly. Hard to call it a season.



And how do you know it now, before 4CC?



Have you seen his Mascarade? If not, probably you've watched Origin and Otonal. Did you honestly notice ANY stagnation?

Because when he repeat in 2018, it was basically the same. The program has been run dry, there’s nothing new to be brought out in it. And yes, I’ve been saying since we first saw origin and otonal that they were basically just rehashes of Chopin and Seimei. He hasn’t brought anything new to the table artistically since 2017. He hasn’t shown any growth as an artist which is really sad because I really believe he could be great at almost any style he wanted to try. Unfortunately he’s taking an even bigger step backwards by going back to these old programs. Shoma has finally tried some new styles this season and it’s exciting because he was also stuck in the same old programs. Nathan has not been afraid to try new styles and it’s helped him grow so much. Speaking strictly about competition mindsets, this sudden switch back to these old programs really shows how shook Yuzu must be. If I’m Nathan or shoma I definitely would take this as a sign that I have the upper hand. It’s going to be veryyyy interesting when these three meet at worlds.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Yes it's ONLY 15 times (forgot WTT when i counted the first time). It might represent a high % (if your number is even accurate as i haven't calculated it myself) because he happened to skate it during two season's where he competed for full ones (except he skipped the challenger in 2014 due to back/knee pain).

Shoma skated to Turandot 19 times but i don't see anyone constantly ragging on him for repeating that program, and it's not as if his programs are very diverse otherwise either. Other programs that were skated to a large or equal number of times as Chopin and SEIMEI that i haven't counted yet are Malaguena by Javier and Messing's Chaplin. Again, no one blames them.

If you're going to complain about skaters repeating programs then do it for them all and not a select few.

If you think Otoñal and Origin bear any substantial similarity to Chopin and SEIMEI then i truly don't know what to tell you, you're a lost cause. They're wildly different not only choreographically and musically, but emotionally.

A) I agree - Shoma isn’t particularly varied in his program selections/artistic range. But at least he’s experimented with things like Legends and this season his musical selections of Great Spirit and Dancing On My Own are different. And he did Stairway to Heaven - so at least he’s not just doing classical genres. As Shoma’s career is progressing he’s branching out in terms of musical selection, whereas Hanyu seems to be falling back more and more on what he’s comfortable with. Which is fine - different skaters have different priorities and choices.

B) Competing the same program for 2 seasons (where you competed a lot in each) is different from a skater repeating the same program for 3 - or in the case of Chopin, 4 - seasons.

I also think repetition is a bit more justifiable if you were unfulfilled in presenting these programs or the results you got (and Hanyu had tons of success with Chopin/Seimei). I would be curious to see if there’s any differing interpretation or choreography in these versions of Chopin and Seimei or if it’ll be essentially a rehash of what he’s already won with but a different jump layout.

I also think it’s quite risky to change programs right in the middle of a season, but I guess 4CC where he is definitely going to win is good place to test it out.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Well, Simei is considered the greatest of Yuzu's programs isn't it? I remember watching in with my jaw dropped at Worlds...2017 was it? Perhaps people think he's doing it for a swan song. Although it seems weird that he'd retire at 4CCs rather than Worlds.

But the Yuzu fans on Twitter seem a bit...er...odd to me. Like they're all convinced that Yuzu is being brought down by the ISU for reasons unknown.

I have to confess being slightly disappointed Origin is gone, it is a monument to fanboying that won't be equalled any time soon

Well, certain folks on Twitter are a... special breed. They envision a score in their mind and are quick to cry foul when the judging doesn't measure up to their own scoresheets. Some of them re-score him and his competitors after a competition, and the bias is just astonishingly blatant (spoiler: his opponents end up scoring way less, and he ends up scoring way more ).

Even when Hanyu wins, certain people will nevertheless rage at the judges who didn't award the highest scores... +6 GOE and 101 PCS is probably too stingy. They've seen Chopin previously score 48.50 PCS and Seimei score 97.20 PCS, so that is the benchmark. If he wins Four Continents by a landslide (which is very likely), but doesn't get those scores or higher, you can expect the inevitable "Unfair Judgment" rants.

 

[TallyT]

The point still stands. People should be consistent if they complain. I don't mind when anyone chooses to repeat programs, it's not exclusive to my fave.

Yuzuru has been putting up with pecksniffian disparagement since he was sixteen, it's nothing new... so he will do what he does, and the sniffing will go on.

 

[NanaPat]

Well, certain folks on Twitter are a... special breed. They envision a score in their mind and are quick to cry foul when the judging doesn't measure up to their own scoresheets. Some of them re-score him and his competitors after a competition, and the bias is just astonishingly blatant (spoiler: his opponents end up scoring way less, and he ends up scoring way more ).

Even when Hanyu wins, certain people will nevertheless rage at the judges who didn't award the highest scores... +6 GOE and 101 PCS is probably too stingy. They've seen Chopin previously score 48.50 PCS and Seimei score 97.20 PCS, so that is the benchmark. If he wins Four Continents by a landslide (which is very likely), but doesn't get those scores or higher, you can expect the inevitable "Unfair Judgment" rants.

Agree with you, but Hanyu's twitter fans aren't the only ones who like to re-score. I see a lot of it on Golden Skate, and for/against many different skaters. I've even seen rescoring aimed at an entire country.

 

[removof]

it's a shame zero innovation...

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Agree with you, but Hanyu's twitter fans aren't the only ones who like to re-score. I see a lot of it on Golden Skate, and for/against many different skaters. I've even seen rescoring aimed at an entire country.

Re-scoring is totally fine. But it must be done with a neutral, informed opinion -- and not one that is invariably clouded by bias, otherwise it's just fluff. If you think that Hanyu should get +5's across the board for every element and his opponents should be getting +2s, then your rescoring isn't so much an assessment as much as deluding yourself in order to make yourself (and others) feel better about the result, and tweaking the math until it suits you.

Judges (in singles especially) rarely give out +5s, and you have to be critical when scoring every skater, even your fave. If there's a lean in the air, that's a -1 reduction, if there's the slightest skid on the landing, that's also potential a -1 or at the very least you can't call the jump effortless, so they don't get that GOE bullet. If a spin travels you cannot give it a +5. If you watch elements through rose-coloured glasses you'll enjoy your skater more, sure... but you will never be able to assess them objectively. And will thus always be frustrated with the judges who are trying to do so.

Rescoring is so obvious when the analyst looks for places to award points to their faves (like removing a < call the tech specialist made), and heavily deducts a rival (like adding a < calll to a rival's jump that they thought the tech specialist should have called). I mean, yeah, sometimes they're right because the tech panel misses stuff but other times it's pretty obvious the attempts to tip the scales by chipping away at a rival's scores while adding GOE and bumping up PCS for your fave.

I also think PCS is one of the stupidest things you can "re-score" because obviously somebody who has even remote bias towards their fave skater and against their rivals will tip the scales heavily to favour their fave while hammering their opponents. I saw one Twitter user that rescored Nathan Chen's GPF freeskate with 7's, and burst out laughing. I mean, even if you loathe Chen, such an assessment is completely devoid of balanced perspective and disregard for how a sport is measured, and immediately debases the legitimacy of your rescoring. Sure it could be your opinion that Chen UR'ed every jump in the GPF, and you'd be entitled to it - but if your rescoring drops his score by 40 points because of it, then it's not even worth discussing with a person like that.

If Hanyu re-uses his programs for Four Continents, I would hope that the PCS and GOEs are measured with a fresh perspective (after all it's under a new system), and if any "rescoring" does end up happening after at least it's done with a fair lens. But based on his previous scores and prior success with these programs, I doubt certain people will be able to treat these programs as absolutes instead of as relatives to prior performances of them.

 

[ladyjane]

I'm just a bit sad. I don't mind the repetition of old programmes - after all it's been a while since I saw them - but couldn't he have chosen his lovely Prince Short Programme from 2017? I know, I know, he never skated that cleanly but it was magnificent. Says, obviously, the Prince fan (it's not for nothing that I, not being a fan of Virtue and Moir, still love their Prince programme and rewatch it often. In the same season by the way).

 

[Silvia451]

Even though I enjoy watching him anyway, deep inside this decision makes me sad.

 

[NanaPat]

A lot of re-scoring is exactly as Canadian Skater Guy described; utterly ridiculous and obviously for the purpose of coming to a pre-determined conclusion. And it is NOT confined to Hanyu fans, and NOT confined to twitter.

 

[TontoK]

A lot of re-scoring is exactly as Canadian Skater Guy described; utterly ridiculous and obviously for the purpose of coming to a pre-determined conclusion. And it is NOT confined to Hanyu fans, and NOT confined to twitter.

How dare you!

I'm calling Interpol.

 

[ladyjane]

How dare you!

I'm calling Interpol.

Hihihi....

 

[TallyT]

I'm just a bit sad. I don't mind the repetition of old programmes - after all it's been a while since I saw them - but couldn't he have chosen his lovely Prince Short Programme from 2017? I know, I know, he never skated that cleanly but it was magnificent. Says, obviously, the Prince fan (it's not for nothing that I, not being a fan of Virtue and Moir, still love their Prince programme and rewatch it often. In the same season by the way).

Could be a copyright issue bringing it back in a later season with no time at this late stage to deal with. Prince's estate is strict - even given how grateful Japanese Prince fans are to Yuzu for what he did for the music there, it's the only one of Yuzu's skates where not one performance made it to the DVD (which was also sad, since that means no ultra-HD view like the rest).

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

A lot of re-scoring is exactly as Canadian Skater Guy described; utterly ridiculous and obviously for the purpose of coming to a pre-determined conclusion. And it is NOT confined to Hanyu fans, and NOT confined to twitter.

Yes, it is certainly not Hanyu fans specifically. Rather, any fan who is heavily invested in a particular skater cannot give truly legitimate analysis, as their bias will invariably cloud their judgment. And this isn't even when their fave loses - rescoring analysis is done even when someone's fave wins. As if to try to convince everyone that they deserved more so when they face a tougher rival or are at a more significant competition, their perceived level is higher than their prior scores otherwise suggested.

In a sense they gaslight themselves into thinking their own method of scoring is king, and anything the ISU judges put out there is just an attempt to bring down their fave while unfairly propping up their rivals. They try to convince everyone that their fave is as awesome and their rivals are as awful as that person sees. And of course are emboldened and encouraged when others who are heavily invested in a skater agree with them (which is not surprising). They stop considering the rules in place, and give excessive credence to things like jump height/distance via IceScope (which is inaccurate, not to mention you don't get more points for having the highest/biggest jumps), or number of transitions (when TR is several criteria more than quantity), or pre-rotation (which a million times over has been conflated with cheated takeoffs). Suddenly, every jump element their fave does earns a "matches musical structure" bullet, while every jump their rivals do fail to earn that. Their favourite saves a jump so they think it's laudable, but a rival saves a jump in a similar fashion and they want to hammer him/her on GOE.

So of course, when they re-score a program, the primary purpose is to use their own confirmation bias to prove that the judges are blind/untrained/dumb, etc. while ignoring the rules that are set in place. This is particularly important when a skater repeats programs. Because then they're like "well, in such and such competition, the skater X got perfect GOE on this element, so that's the standard in terms of how they should be judged". The 330 score that Hanyu got at the GPF in 2015 is negligible. He should be scored based on the content he executes now and the way he executes it now. And just because a skater went clean and got X points means if they skate the same program clean again they should get X+5 points, and so on.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Could be a copyright issue bringing it back in a later season with no time at this late stage to deal with. Prince's estate is strict - even given how grateful Japanese Prince fans are to Yuzu for what he did for the music there, it's the only one of Yuzu's skates where not one performance made it to the DVD (which was also sad, since that means no ultra-HD view like the rest).

That's unfortunate. I was a big fan of LGC. It showed a more fun, eccentric side of him, and had actual personality and character -- unfortunately its potential was never truly realized (although he did get the first quad loop out of it I think! ). See, if he wanted to revisit that (even if post-Prince's death was more "timely") and didn't face rights issues, that would be a good example of a program worth bringing back. Although as mentioned, I don't know why he is replacing his SP which has been very solid for him this year.

 

[tafattsbarn]

He explains a bit of his reasoning for changing programs in a new interview here (putting in multiple translations as japanese is a complicated language with a lot of nuance):

https://twitter.com/Iron_Klaus/status/1224981863984443392

https://twitter.com/axelwithwings/status/1225009227590070279

https://twitter.com/shinjistarxx/status/1224991928179097600

 

[Beckaboomer]

I’m sure the topic has been talked to death by now, but I’ll weigh in anyway.

I totally understand why people would be fed up with recycling programs in general, and specifically from Yuzu since he’s done it before. However, in this case I honestly don’t think he felt he had a choice. Origin has not been working for him. Whatever your thoughts on the program, its choreography or composition, he’s never been at his best while skating it and he seems to be visibly drained by it. If he feels the same way about Otoñal, I’d have to disagree with him because I think it’s one of his best SPs ever. But he wants to win and there is no way he would change his programs mid-season to anything other than what’s absolutely familiar - something where the muscle memory is probably ingrained into his very DNA at this point.

Whatever else people think of Yuzu and recycling, he isn’t stupid. Changing music mid-season is already super risky. He wouldn’t jeopardize his chances by choosing LGC (which he never skated perfectly) or something new (which would be insane). So it kind of had to be Chopin & Seimei.

I’m gonna miss Otoñal tho, not gonna lie.

 

[eppen]

I kept wondering about the repeat programs situation in general and looked at what the men's Worlds medalists since 2000 have done during their careers. Just based on their Wikipedias which might not be the most reliable sources, but for the programs often the only source. And just about everybody repeats at least once, except apparently Yagudin, Weiss, Chen, and Zhou (for the two Young Americans obviously *so far*). Did not check the times they were performed, so it is a rough calculation from the number of times they competed those seasons (incl. nationals, Japan open, other team comps).

A couple of times clearly getting only one new program/season (Lindemann, Chan, early Hanyu maybe here also). Then there were those who returned to an old program for Olympics or Worlds (Joubert, Honda, Buttle, others also) because the new one did not work.

Lambiel skated Poeta once only in its first season, then kept it (understandably) for the next one.

Fernández used Pirates twice - good program for him, but could also have been a monetary question at that time. Malaguena repeat season was done imo partly because it was a good program for him, but also because using a familiar program made it probably easier to get the second quad in the short consistent. The third season was 1 competition and it was part of the "All Spanish" lineup with Man of La Mancha as FS and Prometo for exhibition.

Considering that top men tend to compete in average 5 times/season, so two full seasons usually amounts to about 10 times.

Lysacek with Espana Cani SP and now Hanyu's Chopin are the only 4 season repeats. Triplets are not much more common: Joubert and Matrix, Hanyu and Seimei and so-and-so Javi and Malaguena (the 3rd season was that one competition only, so...).

I think repeats are almost universally complained about (whatever the Hanyu apologists may want to think), no matter who it is and which program they are repeating.

E

Plushenko
FS 2004-5 to 2005-6 Godfather 8 times
SP 2011-2 to 2012-3 Storm 3 times

Goebel
SP 2002-3 to 2003-4 Romeo and Juliet 4 times
FS 2003-4 to 2004-5 The Queen Symphony 5 times

Honda
SP 2001-2 to 2002-3 Don Quixote 14 times
FS 2001-2 to 2002-3 Concierto Aranjuez 14 times
SP 2003-4 to 2005-6 Romeo and Juliet 5 times
FS 2003-4 to 2004-5 Warsaw Concerto 5 times

Joubert
FS 2003-4 to 2005-6 to 2011-2 Clubbed to Death (aka Matrix) 14 times (Plus 2008-9 different music cut)
FS 2006-7 to 2007-8 Metallica Medley 13 times
SP 2008-9 to 2009-10 Rise 12 times
SP 2011-2 to 2012-3 Medley 12 times

Lindemann
SP 2001-2 to 2002-3 The Princess and the Warrior 7 times
FS 2002-3 to 2003-4 Le Petit Poucet 15 times
SP 2003-4 to 2004-5 The Importance of Being Earnest 15 times
FS 2004-5 to 2005-6 The Big Bounce 14 times
SP 2005-6 to 2006-7 Robot City 9 times

Lambiel
FS 2005-6 to 2006-7 Four Seasons 10 times
FS 2006-7 to 2007-8 Poeta times

Buttle
FS 2003-4 to 2005-6 Samson and Delilah 7 times
SP 2006-7 to 2007-8 Adios Nonino 7 times
FS 2006-7 to 2007-8 Ararat 10 times

Lysacek
SP 2002-3 to 2003-4 to 2004-5 to 2005-6 España cañí 19 times
FS 2005-6 to 2006-7 Carmen Suite 8 times

Takahashi
SP 2003-4 to 2004-5 Nyah 8 times
FS 2018-9 to 2019-20 Pale Green Ghosts medley 2 times

Weir
SP 2000-1 to 2001-2 Les Parapluies de Cherbourg 9 times
FS 2002-3 to 2003-4 Doctor Zhivago 9 times
FS 2004-5 to 2005-6 Otoñal 7 times

Chan
SP 2004-5 to 2005-6 La Repression 9 times
FS 2006-7 to 2007-8 Four Seasons 9 times (plus 2013-4 different music cut)
SP 2008-9 to 2009-10 Tango de los Exilados 11 times
FS 2009-10 to 2010-1 Phantasia 9 times
SP 2010-1 to 2011-2 Take Five 9 times
SP 2012-3 to 2013-4 Elegie in E Flat Minor 13 times
FS 2014-5 to 2015-6 Chopin 8 times

Kozuka
FS 2012-3 to 2013-4 Rondo Capriccioso 12 times
FS 2014-5 to 2015-6 Io ci sarò 8 times

Gachinski
FS 2008-9 to 2009-10 The Mirror - Narcissus 13 times

Hanyu
FS 2008-9 to 2009-10 Rhapsody Paganini 10 times
SP 2012-3 to 2013-4 Parisienne Walkways 15 times
SP 2014-5 to 2015-6 to 2017-8 to 2018-9 Ballade Chopin 18 times
FS 2015-6 to 2017-8 to 2018-9 Seimei 12 times
FS 2018-9 to 2019-20 Otoñal 7 times
SP 2018-9 to 2019-20 Origin 7 times

Ten
SP 2006-7 to 2007-8 Flamenco 11 times

Fernández
FS 2009-10 to 2010-1 Pirates 13 times
SP 2015-6 to 2016-7 to 2018-9 Malaguena 13 times
FS 2017-8 to 2018-9 Man of La Mancha 9 times

Uno
FS 2010-1 to 2011-2 Tzigane more than 7 times?
FS 2012-3 to 2013-4 Steps 11 times
SP 2017-8 to 2018-9 Winter 11 times
FS 2015-6 to 2017-8 Turandot 19 times

Jin
FS 2012-3 to 2013-4 Chaplin medley 10 times
SP 2014-5 to 2015-6 Tango Amore 13 times
FS 2014-5 to 2015-6 Dragon Racing 13 times

Kolyada
FS 2014-5 to 2015-6 The Nightmare Before Christmas 9 times
SP 2015-6 to 2016-7 Nightingale Tango 15 times

 

[shine]

He's been using the Chopin at official trainings to feel the right tempo for his quads- that program is an absolute comfort zone for him for the quads success. And Seimei is a signature program for him. Should it let him land 4A successfully I wouldn't mind to see it again. He is a person whose skating is a mission to lift the spirit of people watching him and admiring him, giving the hope and courage to fight with their life issues- being personal or nationwide or worldwide ones. It could also mean that he may retire after this. So I am surprised that nobody is considering this and people basically criticize him when he needs a bit of support from all of us. His last two seasons were basically struggling with injuries consequences, misunderstandings with his main coach, his free programs choreographer muse leaving to live in USA and being more and more available to lift up his rivals, his federation making a lot of different steps to stop his fanbase from freely show their love and support, favoring his competitors even at homeland competitions and judges to stop awarding him starting from Saitama, giving false UR calls and not awarding his clean jumps in comparison to a lavish GOE for his rivals, some with a terrible massive pre-rotational "quads". He is a human being, not a superhero. He does all that he can to perform his best.
Why everyone is so shy to talk about this- this is also a sign that he may retire after Worlds 2020. Still want to say meh to his music choices? He is using his best programs to say the most beautiful good bye to the sport. I can't believe how hostile the figure skating community has become during the past couple of seasons. I just can't.

Wow, he must be the most unfortunate figure skater ever in history. The world is clearly out to get him.

Also, his free program choreographer has been based in the USA for at least a decade.