Should Ladies Skating Allow Quads in the SP?

[Mathman]

Modern judging favours quads, not clean triples.

Yes. It's right there in the scale of values. Do a quad toe, you get 9.50 points Do a clean triple toe, you get 4.20 points. It's just arithmetic.

Since this is a thread about ladies, I think it it fair to mention that every major competition this year has been won by a skater presenting a quad or a triple Axel. No one else has a chance. Trusova, Shcherbakova and Kostornia won every Grand Prix event and swept the Final. They also swept Europeans. Of the non-Russian ladies Rika Kihira and Young You have landed triple Axels in their medal-winning efforts. Alyssa Liu won U.S. Nationals by doing two triple Axels, and she at least tried a quad Lutz, completely annihilating the field despite more "artistic" efforts by Bradie Tennell and Mariah Bell.

It is simply a fact that this year in senior ladies, there was no exception to the rule that you can't win without a triple Axel or a quad. Whether that is good or bad, that is a separate question, but there is no denying the truth of the statement.

That is not the same as saying that if you do a big jump then you automatically place higher than all the skaters who don't. None of the skaters I have mentioned here are deficient in either blade-to-ice skills or presentation.

 

[Elucidus]

Another lie. Sorry Elucidus, I don't agree with you at all (well perhaps I do about the whining, but that's a different issue). Modern judging favours quads, not clean triples. And it's certainly not about humiliating anyone - be she/he a quadster or not. I won't go into detail but when Jason finally won a medal at 4CC, to me it felt like a kind of justice. Finally the skater, not the jumper (although he executes fine triples) gets a medal. And when Boyang (a favourite of mine, and I always get angry when people say he's just jumps), Messing (another favourite of mine) make big mistakes (quite apart from their quad jumping abilities) it's fair when they loose. Cha is a different skater, he genuinely is an artistically strong multiquadster and I held him high. Het got UR'ed, and that held him down. I may not have agreed with the UR's (another discussion, and not for me because I can't see it good enough), but to me if he hadn't got those, he would have been in front of Jason. Despite me (but I'm not a judge or a TC) just loving Jason because of skating so perfectly and emotionally moving me, I would have accepted that because Cha is a truly artistic skater. Modern judging does not favour clean triples and PCS now already. Only when quadsters fail (and I agree that Cha did not fail, but in this case the UR thing played an important part), can this happen. Luckily for Jason it did. And I just cried because I was so moved. Not quantifiable, agreed. But I wouldn't call it whining. And certainly not humiliating towards technical skaters.

It's sounds very good and dandy - kudos to your eloquence skills. However, how exactly what I said is a lie? I remind you - I called a lie the statement

Because quads allow people with little artistry to win.

and proved it by presenting examples when even people with solid artistry and quads can't win. Were my examples wrong? No, they weren't. You said that it was due to URs. And? How that can cancel what I said? It's exactly my point - quads are hard to rotate fully while triples are easier to rotate fully. Skater with triples only spends less stamina and power on them - meaning they keeps more energy to do better choreo and spins. They has more chances to land triples cleanly and with beautiful landing - contributing both to GOEs and PCS. It's advantage of a triples skaters. The only reason why quadsters seems so strong is couple of top skaters to whom judges are willing to not notice their mistakes and inflate their PCS/GOEs. If judged with the same standarts as not so known quadsters are usually judged - the gap between them and the rest of the field would be much smaller and much more reachable. I remind you as well - the whole set of changes and decisions in previous congress was dedicated to limiting power of quads and boosting triples only PCS skaters. Those changes are already in effect -and they works quite efficiently. There is no need to work with the system further - there is need to work with judges to teach them how to use this system properly.

Modern judging favours quads, not clean triples.

Yes. It's right there in the scale of values. Do a quad toe, you get 9.50 points Do a clean triple toe, you get 4.20 points. It's just arithmetic.

I disagree. Quads are more difficult to land cleanly and rotate fully - therefore they more often gets negative GOEs. That, and tech callers are more willing to ignore triples URs as well - than quads URs. It's especially true for 3A - so much so that it looks like judges have different standarts of calling when assessing ladies 3As vs ladies quads.

Since this is a thread about ladies, I think it it fair to mention that every major competition this year has been won by a skater presenting a quad or a triple Axel. No one else has a chance. Trusova, Shcherbakova and Kostornia won every Grand Prix event and swept the Final. They also swept Europeans. Of the non-Russian ladies Rika Kihira and Young You have landed triple Axels in their medal-winning efforts.

And why you combine them? They are different jumps - and this topic is especially particular about that.

Alyssa Liu won U.S. Nationals by doing two triple Axels and at least trying a quad Lutz, completely annihilating the field despite more "artistic" efforts by Bradie Tennell and Mariah Bell.

She wasn't annihilating the field. She was made/pushed by judges to "annihilate it". If they truly wanted - they could easily put her to 3rd place or out of podium. Just like they did with multiquadster Cha vs Brown or how Tuktamysheva was judged this season - just notice her real URs (her 3As and couple of triples as well) and real PCS. They chose not to. It's on them. Maybe they wanted to make her a new TES star in the same vein as Nathan - maybe there was other reason - it's not that important. HOWEVER, it doesn't mean that current system favors tech jumpers only because judges are willing to push them. It's judging issue - not a system issue. In current system there is enough fairness to not let technicians such as Liu to win over top artistic skaters if it's used as it should. Justifying radical changes to system on a basis of sloppy judges work is a nonsense.

 

[Mathman]

Justifying radical changes to system on a basis of sloppy judges work is a nonsense.

Now I am confused. This thread is about, "Should the ISU change the rules to allow Ladies to do quads in the SP, or should we keep the rules as they are?" Is it your view that it is nonsense to change the rules?

I disagree. I think the rules should be changed, sloppy judging or not. There is no reason to delay making desirable changes in the rues while we wait for judging to become less sloppy.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

In current system there is enough fairness to not let technicians such as Liu to win over top artistic skaters if it's used as it should.

The issue is that there is a hard ceiling on artistic (PCS) scores, but not on the technical score. So you're always going to see technical skaters push themselves to close that gap with difficulty, and sometimes they'll succeed (i.e. Alysa at Nationals) while other times they won't (i.e. Alysa at JGPF).

 

[ladyjane]

Dear Elucidus. Thanks for the compliment (as a non native English speaker/writer I like being called 'eloquent' in this language). I only called what you said to be another lie because you called 'because quads allow skaters with little artistry to win' a lie. Which it isn't. It's just an exaggeration. But of course I didn't actually think you were lying. I am sorry if you understood it that way. I'll edit it out.

 

[Amei]

The issue is that there is a hard ceiling on artistic (PCS) scores, but not on the technical score. So you're always going to see technical skaters push themselves to close that gap with difficulty, and sometimes they'll succeed (i.e. Alysa at Nationals) while other times they won't (i.e. Alysa at JGPF).

But there are very rare instances of the artistic performance truly being above the scoring ceiling, and my point in favor of that ceiling is that, PCS has always been a boosting score given to established skaters with a decent competitive history, regardless of what was put on the ice at that day's competition.

 

[Query]

Yes!

But the right way to do this is to have separate artistic and (strength-wise) athletic programs, instead of or in addition to separate long and short programs. Each should be a separate event, with separate medals.

There are many sports with separate medal events for different types of skills. Gymnastics, track, skiing, swimming... (Yes, I know that freestyle, pairs and ice dance are separate. But I think artistic vs extreme athletic should be recognized as separate.) Of course, that means more TV time for medal giving - but it also recognizes outstanding performances in each event, rather than requiring the medalists to be outstanding in all of them.

Maybe the artistic event rules could even be made so that ladies have, on average, higher scores in those events.

I personally look at all figure skating as a form of The Dance, and personally appreciate grace more than superfast rotations and obvious strength. But the sport has evolved in such a way that many skaters and coaches would be very upset if triples and quads weren't rewarded. Treating everyone in a more similar manners, combined with separate events with separate medals is the way to reward both, and keep more people happy. It also recognizes that the audience for this sport may be primarily female, and lets them more easily imagine themselves in the skaters' place.

(BTW, I still suspect this debate might be, to some extant, for some people, covertly a controversy about trans athletes - though I have no data to support that.)

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

But there are very rare instances of the artistic performance truly being above the scoring ceiling, and my point in favor of that ceiling is that, PCS has always been a boosting score given to established skaters with a decent competitive history, regardless of what was put on the ice at that day's competition.

No one has ever earned 40 or 80 in PCS at an international event, so why raise the ceiling above something no one has ever achieved? Artistry is important but, at the end of the day, it's a sport and there should always be a way to win on athletic ability. Maybe a skater needs five quads to close that gap, but there should be some way to do so.

 

[Mathman]

Maybe a skater needs five quads to close that gap, but there should be some way to do so.

I do not understand this point. What "gap" can a skater close by doing 5 quads?

 

[colormyworld240]

The argument of learning jumps chronologically in the order of point value difficulty makes no sense to me. Skaters will have a natural affinity for some jumps over others. I don't think ladies are learning 4Lz/F before a 3A because of judging leniency. Those are just their stronger jumps, unique to each individual. The only ladies who have landed 4Lz/F are Sasha, Anna, and Alysa. Sasha and Anna learned the 4Lz first (though Sasha learned 4T and 4S before), and Alysa learned her 3A first. Then Rika and Alena both have 3As but not 4Lz/F. So of all the ladies doing these ultra elements, 3/5 actually learned the 3A first, while 1/5 the 4Lz, and 1/5 the 4S. So the numbers suggest that more are doing 3A than quads. Many skaters have openly talked about which jumps they prefer, and I have yet to see skater who describes their affinity for jumps in the order of increasing point value.

Yuna Kim took out her 3Lo later on into her career, it would be absurd to suggest that she stop doing her 3Lz and 3F until she regained her 3Lo. Similarly, Liza hasn't done a 3S in competition this season, it would make no sense to suggest that she stopped doing 3Lz (arguably the best in field), 3F, and 3Lo because 3S is the "easier" jump and she has to move chronologically.

 

[draqq]

They should allow the quad in the short program for ladies, if and only if they elevate the factoring for artistry to match the men's as well. (I actually want the factoring to be even greater for ladies and men to match the technical mark, but that's a separate issue.)

 

[lzxnl]

The argument of learning jumps chronologically in the order of point value difficulty makes no sense to me. Skaters will have a natural affinity for some jumps over others. I don't think ladies are learning 4Lz/F before a 3A because of judging leniency. Those are just their stronger jumps, unique to each individual. The only ladies who have landed 4Lz/F are Sasha, Anna, and Alysa. Sasha and Anna learned the 4Lz first (though Sasha learned 4T and 4S before), and Alysa learned her 3A first. Then Rika and Alena both have 3As but not 4Lz/F. So of all the ladies doing these ultra elements, 3/5 actually learned the 3A first, while 1/5 the 4Lz, and 1/5 the 4S. So the numbers suggest that more are doing 3A than quads. Many skaters have openly talked about which jumps they prefer, and I have yet to see skater who describes their affinity for jumps in the order of increasing point value.

Yuna Kim took out her 3Lo later on into her career, it would be absurd to suggest that she stop doing her 3Lz and 3F until she regained her 3Lo. Similarly, Liza hasn't done a 3S in competition this season, it would make no sense to suggest that she stopped doing 3Lz (arguably the best in field), 3F, and 3Lo because 3S is the "easier" jump and she has to move chronologically.

Your argument would be valid only if said quad flips or lutzes were actually remotely close to the right amount of revolutions. As is very well established, the girls' quad lutzes and flips all have a 0.6 revolution cheat on the takeoff, hardly using the toe pick either. Had they been assessed as underrotating AND bad takeoffs, the jumps would not be worth attempting. So, in their case, it's more of 'bad technique making some jumps easier than others'. Triple axels are harder to cheat, hence why Trusova struggles with them.

 

[Fried]

(triple axels are harder to cheat,) hence why trusova struggles with them.

bs

 

[Alex65]

Your argument would be valid only if said quad flips or lutzes were actually remotely close to the right amount of revolutions. As is very well established, the girls' quad lutzes and flips all have a 0.6 revolution cheat on the takeoff, hardly using the toe pick either. Had they been assessed as underrotating AND bad takeoffs, the jumps would not be worth attempting. So, in their case, it's more of 'bad technique making some jumps easier than others'. Triple axels are harder to cheat, hence why Trusova struggles with them.

If your statement is true, then please get this: Quad are harder to cheat , hence why Rika, Alёna, Liza and other girls with only 3A fight with them.

"So, in their case, it's more of 'bad technique making some jumps easier than others"(с) - and this is also for them in this case .
Just in case, I’ll say that Trusova’s axel technique is perfect. She has practically zero prerotation on this leap.

 

[PyeongChang2018]

If your statement is true, then please get this: Quad are harder to cheat , hence why Rika, Alёna, Liza and other girls with only 3A fight with them.

"So, in their case, it's more of 'bad technique making some jumps easier than others"(с) - and this is also for them in this case .
Just in case, I’ll say that Trusova’s axel technique is perfect. She has practically zero prerotation on this leap.

Well again, as lzxnl, you can't really cheat an axel. Whereas a cheated quad loop effectively becomes a triple axel when it's cheated. Forward takeoff, knee carried upwards.

 

[silveruskate]

bs

Not talking about Trusova, but it's evident that it's harder to prerotate a 3A to the same extent. The most important difference in my opinion is that you can more easily carry momentum when going for other jumps compared to an axel jump.

 

[JSM]

Well again, as lzxnl, you can't really cheat an axel. Whereas a cheated quad loop effectively becomes a triple axel when it's cheated. Forward takeoff, knee carried upwards.

Not really, though you might be able to say that about the salchow (which also requires a weight transfer in the air, unlike the loop/flip/lutz).

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I do not understand this point. What "gap" can a skater close by doing 5 quads?

Another skater's PCS advantage.

 

[colormyworld240]

Your argument would be valid only if said quad flips or lutzes were actually remotely close to the right amount of revolutions. As is very well established, the girls' quad lutzes and flips all have a 0.6 revolution cheat on the takeoff, hardly using the toe pick either. Had they been assessed as underrotating AND bad takeoffs, the jumps would not be worth attempting. So, in their case, it's more of 'bad technique making some jumps easier than others'. Triple axels are harder to cheat, hence why Trusova struggles with them.

So then do Liza, Rika, and Alena struggle with quads because they're easier to cheat? Because they're all training/attempted quads but haven't landed them, but they have stable 3As. Not sure how you think your argument is valid at all.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

So then do Liza, Rika, and Alena struggle with quads because they're easier to cheat? Because they're all training/attempted quads but haven't landed them, but they have stable 3As. Not sure how you think your argument is valid at all.

I think what lzxnl meant is that the 3A is hard to cheat on the takeoff, given the forward entry and how the skater's body weight moves over the blade. I think it boils down to skaters doing the difficult jumps that are most comfortable to them and little to do with limitations based on technique when they are attempting incredibly hard elements.