Is A Quad Really Necessary for the Men?

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I don't believe anyone including skaters can turn their vertical bodies 4 rotations in the air except those that have built-in natural ability for rotating. No one without that ability will ever be able to do a quad no matter how much effort is put into practicing it.

The difficulty in achieving such a feat by those who do have the natural ability is a lot of work and perseverance. If I see a quad in performance and it flows with the music, I'll accept it as part of the program. If it takes an unusual amount of preparation to land one, I will see it as a Trick and separate from the program.

I do believe that someone someday, somewhere with natural rotation will eventually turn their vertical bodies 5 rotations in the air. WOW,that will be as exciting as a skateboarder doing 3 rotations.

Joe

 

[antmanb]

I'm afraid that's exactly what it would do -- take away the quad/triple combo altogether.I think there is the possibility that it would make skaters less innovative instead of more. I think every skater (if they were able) would just do 4T+2T, 4T, 3A+2T, 3A, 3Lz+3T, 3F+2Lo+2Lo, 3Lo, 3S. If they got lazy they could change their last two passes into double Axels (thus doing only four kinds of jumps) and only lose 2.5 points.

You've got a violating triple toe in there MM!! two quad toes and a triple toe in combo with a triple lutz.

I think it would make it worthwhile for someone like evgeni to pull out his triple axel-half loop- triple flip out again and or triple sal on the back half.

Ant

 

[GoldMedalist]

I think it would make it worthwhile for someone like evgeni to pull out his triple axel-half loop- triple flip out again and or triple sal on the back half.

Jump combinations and true jump sequences should simply be getting bonuses. CoP killed the XXX, half loop, 3Sal (or 3Flip) move with that .8 deduction.

 

[rutinia]

Looking at Preaubert and Lysacek, and OTOH Buttle and Oda, I have an impression that a 4T is possible with the strong mustle and body balance.
But other quads require more than that -- the natural gifts for jumps.

 

[antmanb]

Jump combinations and true jump sequences should simply be getting bonuses. CoP killed the XXX, half loop, 3Sal (or 3Flip) move with that .8 deduction.

I know and i agree that combinations and sequences should be given bonuses and not deductions like the COP gives to sequences. Also it should be possible to distinguish that a 3T/2T is easier than a 2T/3T and that both of those are more difficult than doing a solo 3T and solo 2T (which is how the current CO Pscores them).

Ant

 

[antmanb]

Looking at Preaubert and Lysacek, and OTOH Buttle and Oda, I have an impression that a 4T is possible with the strong mustle and body balance.
But other quads require more than that -- the natural gifts for jumps.

I think it also depends on the skater's preference for toe or edge jumps and their comfort zone with a particular triple jump. Some skaters have preferred the salchow to the toe-loop, others have toyed with the lutz and other with the loop.

Ant

 

[Mathman]

There is, however, a built-in bonus for doing combos and sequences. Namely, it gives you an extra jumping pass. Even if all you can do is an extra double Axel, that's still a 3.5 point "bonus" for doing a combination rather than two single jumps.

 

[antmanb]

There is, however, a built-in bonus for doing combos and sequences. Namely, it gives you an extra jumping pass. Even if all you can do is an extra double Axel, that's still a 3.5 point "bonus" for doing a combination rather than two single jumps.

Ok, but i still think in a system that has tried to codify the difficulty of elements by giving them a point value, they have missed the difficulty of doing jumps in combination. Such an oversight hasn't been the case with spins where a spin combination is assigned higher points. I think it is strange that while they are still tweaking with periferal subject thinks (like deductions for flutzes etc) they still haven't addressed the fundamental issue that doing a combination of two jumps is more difficult (and surely worthy of more points) than doing two jumps in isolation.

Ant

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

We have to remember that regardless of how well the skater actually skates on ice, it is up in the air that gets most of the points.

IMHO, my beloved Michelle if she chooses to make a comeback with out the 3x3s, and with mediocre spins, footwork no better than the average today, the total Techical Score would lag somewhere at the bottom half of the top 12, if that.

Her PCS scores will just be competitive with others. Podium possibilites will only be at US Nats where she could well be obviously held-up.

I really don't like saying this, but reality has set in.

Joe

 

[GoldMedalist]

There is, however, a built-in bonus for doing combos and sequences. Namely, it gives you an extra jumping pass. Even if all you can do is an extra double Axel, that's still a 3.5 point "bonus" for doing a combination rather than two single jumps.

Not always, unfortunately:

3A, half loop, 3Flip = 10.4, plus a 2Axel by itself = 13.9 points

3A + 2T = 8.8, plus a 3Flip by itself = 14.3 points

 

[Mathman]

3A, half loop, 3Flip = 10.4, plus a 2Axel by itself = 13.9 points

3A + 2T = 8.8, plus a 3Flip by itself = 14.3 points

Which of these do you think is the harder?

 

[Tinymavy15]

Which of these do you think is the harder?

the first one. of course.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Apparently, the question of Aesthetics never enters the picture.

 

[Mathman]

Not always, unfortunately:

3A, half loop, 3Flip = 10.4, plus a 2Axel by itself = 13.9 points

3A + 2T = 8.8, plus a 3Flip by itself = 14.3 points

That is an interesting example. Yeah, that 20% penalty on the whole sequence is a killer.

Solo 4T = 9.0 points.
4T+2T seq = 8.24 points. :sheesh:

It used to be that when skaters had a wookie landing on the first jump of an intended combo, they did everything they could to try to muscle up some sort of second jump anyway. No more. Now skaters just shrug and go on with their programs.

I can see why. The element might get called as a sequence, costing them points.

In fact, the new rules even stop you from doing 3-something+stumble around a little+2- or 3-something else and calling it a sequence. So it's best just to let the second jump go.

 

[Vodka Shot]

I think they are necessary to medal on the international level. However, I wish they weren't. I hate them. They're ugly, they ruin the choreography, they always looked forced and muscled through, and I think it's getting to the point where the truly more talented skaters are getting beat by those with inferior basic skating skills because they can land something I consider nothing more than a trick.

 

[Tonichelle]

why is the quad a trick and a 3 jump isn't, though?

 

[GoldMedalist]

Because Johnny Weir's Quad isn't consistent, clearly.

 

[yahalom]

Because Johnny Weir's Quad isn't consistent, clearly.

:thumbsup:

 

[antmanb]

why is the quad a trick and a 3 jump isn't, though?

I'm only guessing becuase i think the jumps are all tricks to a certain extent but...i think people who think the quad is a "trick" more so than a triple jump is becuase the best skaters in the world are able to place and execute the triple jumps in a way that fits choreographically with the music. For this i'm thinking Buttles programs and Takahashi's program from about three years ago that was so stupidly hard he often missed the jumps. The intention there is for the jumps to highlight the music and have choreographical links that maintain the mood and style of the music. While many skaters don't manage it with triple jumps, some do.

Absolutely no skater manages a quad in keeping with the music - buttle (ignoring the fall for these purposes), pluschenko, yags, joubert - not one of them has done the quad in the a program without the rink length set up.

Ant

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

And for my next element, I shall do a Quint - Drum Roll, please!

Joe