Should Ladies Skating Allow Quads in the SP?

[silveruskate]

With a toe loop, you're supposed to have your back foot's pick leave the ice the same time as the front foot's heel leaves the ice. Trusova's heel leaves waaaay sooner, giving her time to rotate while still on the ice. It's right there in your own video.

I think Trusova has many fantastic qualities. But let's stop deluding ourselves that she has perfect jumping technique.

Some humility goes a long way. I think you got owned just there. The video shows them being almost identical.

In the same breath let's not also delude ourselves that every jump is wrong technique. She can have good technique on a toeloop and it doesn't mean suddenly all her other jumps are perfect technique. Jump technique catch-all is useless when there are 6 different types of jumps.

 

[Arbitrary]

The talks about faulty quads or quads of inferior quality have little to do with the agenda of having or not having jumps beyond 3Ax in female SP.

I'd say the rules should be like: solo Axel jump is mandatory, solo non-Axel 3+ jump is mandatory, one combo with 3+ and 2+ jumps is mandatory.
Some limitations depend on the age.

The currently most advanced SP would potentially include 3Ax/4F//4Lz3Lo. Such SP is good enough for any male tournament too. I doubt many male skaters would dare, maybe 3-4 only.
So pretty much space to go with...

 

[silveruskate]

The talks about faulty quads or quads of inferior quality have little to do with the agenda of having or not having jumps beyond 3Ax in female SP.

I'd say the rules should be like: solo Axel jump is mandatory, solo non-Axel 3+ jump is mandatory, one combo with 3+ and 2+ jumps is mandatory.
Some limitations depend on the age.

The currently most advanced SP would potentially include 3Ax/4F//4Lz3Lo. Such SP is good enough for any male tournament too. I doubt many male skaters would dare, maybe 3-4 only.
So pretty much space to go with...

I can see Scherbakova going for that but with 3T not 3Lo. As no other ladies can do quads it's easier to take the risk. Before I was more against a quad in the SP, but now I've come around to it. It still annoys me that we can see quads next to double axels but I don't think it's a valid reason to stop them.

 

[PyeongChang2018]

Some humility goes a long way. I think you got owned just there. The video shows them being almost identical.

In the same breath let's not also delude ourselves that every jump is wrong technique. She can have good technique on a toeloop and it doesn't mean suddenly all her other jumps are perfect technique. Jump technique catch-all is useless when there are 6 different types of jumps.

Methinks you need an even slower version of that video... Check when her heel leaves the ice. It's not the same time as her other foot's pick, which it is supposed to be. See that her head is not in line with her foot, as it's supposed to be. See that she pre-rotates an immense amount--arguably an acceptable amount and only 180 degrees. See that she uses arm momentum more than technique. You can continue to pretend not to see these technical errors, but that doesn't mean they're not there.

 

[jenaj]

When you want to support gender equality in sports: yes
When you want to prevent Russia dominating figure skating even more: no

I'm not really seeing what gender equality or Russian domination has to do with it. The reason not to allow quads right now is that we are in the middle of an Olympic cycle and changing the rules is unfair to skaters who have relied on them in their training and constructing their programs. Quads can be allowed after the 2022 Olympics when everyone will have a fair shot to train them and include them in their short program, if they want to.

 

[jenaj]

Oh I see pre-rotation truthers have come to this thread too

They will never stop, even though someone as knowledgeable as Frank Carroll has said that there is always some pre-rotation in jumping and that it increases with the difficulty of the jump. https://icoachskating.com/jump-principles-speed-and-pre-rotation-frank-carroll/

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I'm not really seeing what gender equality or Russian domination has to do with it. The reason not to allow quads right now is that we are in the middle of an Olympic cycle and changing the rules is unfair to skaters who have relied on them in their training and constructing their programs. Quads can be allowed after the 2022 Olympics when everyone will have a fair shot to train them and include them in their short program, if they want to.

But why disallow them in the first place. Why when the rules were modified to allow them in Men’s skating was it not also allowed in women’s?

Also two entire seasons seems plenty of time to prepare for the Olympics and train imo.. I also find it rather unsporting of the ISU to hinder its most technically advanced athletes in order to control the results of an Olympic outcome. Ironically that seems to go against the Olympic motto of “higher faster stronger”

 

[silveruskate]

Methinks you need an even slower version of that video... Check when her heel leaves the ice. It's not the same time as her other foot's pick, which it is supposed to be. See that her head is not in line with her foot, as it's supposed to be. See that she pre-rotates an immense amount--arguably an acceptable amount and only 180 degrees. See that she uses arm momentum more than technique. You can continue to pretend not to see these technical errors, but that doesn't mean they're not there.

Oh wait but in the video Hanyu doesn't either on the 4T so what are you saying? You literally said she cheats the jump. Your words. And they almost identical. Maybe slowing it down 4x you'll find some small difference but really??

 

[macy]

With a toe loop, you're supposed to have your back foot's pick leave the ice the same time as the front foot's heel leaves the ice. Trusova's heel leaves waaaay sooner, giving her time to rotate while still on the ice. It's right there in your own video.

I think Trusova has many fantastic qualities. But let's stop deluding ourselves that she has perfect jumping technique.

no, this is 100% wrong. the technique of the toe loop does not allow for this. a correct toe loop is done by picking and following through with your other foot on a somewhat outside edge (hence the "loop") while your body and hips begins to rotate simultaneously. there is no rule on whether or not your follow through foot leaves the ice at the same time as your picking foot.

 

[PyeongChang2018]

no, this is 100% wrong. the technique of the toe loop does not allow for this. a correct toe loop is done by picking and following through with your other foot on a somewhat outside edge (hence the "loop") while your body and hips begins to rotate simultaneously. there is no rule on whether or not your follow through foot leaves the ice at the same time as your picking foot.

You are wrong. See 3:04 of this video to further your education. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6hOp0gEBAE&t=6s

Silveruskate, you need this too...

Now see this video in which Trusova clearly pre-rotates her toe loop more than 180 degrees. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ya2jZpst9s

It's fine that she does it, but judges should judge accordingly.

 

[Fried]

You are wrong. See 3:04 of this video to further your education.

https://tenor.com/bejkV.gif

 

[macy]

You are wrong. See 3:04 of this video to further your education. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6hOp0gEBAE&t=6s

Silveruskate, you need this too...

Now see this video in which Trusova clearly pre-rotates her toe loop more than 180 degrees. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ya2jZpst9s

It's fine that she does it, but judges should judge accordingly.

not every skater does a jump the same exact way. some may leave the ice with both feet closer to the same time, some do not. one is not right and the other wrong. there is no rule on any of this, only opinions including the video you are trying to "educate" us with. i'm also going to say you aren't going to tell me any different because i was a competitive skater for a very long time and i know what i'm talking about. until the ISU makes a rule on the "correct technique" of a jump, same with "prerotation" and all these other made up terms from fans, opinions of what is right and wrong is irrelevant.

 

[PyeongChang2018]

not every skater does a jump the same exact way. some may leave the ice with both feet closer to the same time, some do not. one is not right and the other wrong. there is no rule on any of this, only opinions including the video you are trying to "educate" us with. i'm also going to say you aren't going to tell me any different because i was a competitive skater for a very long time and i know what i'm talking about. until the ISU makes a rule on the "correct technique" of a jump, same with "prerotation" and all these other made up terms from fans, opinions of what is right and wrong is irrelevant.

These are literally taken from HelpDesks lmao!!!

Having good technique is good for your knees! That's part of why it should be encouraged!

 

[Mathman]

I also find it rather unsporting of the ISU to hinder its most technically advanced athletes in order to control the results of an Olympic outcome. Ironically that seems to go against the Olympic motto of “higher faster stronger”

I have come to the conclusion that the ISU means something different than we do when they use the word "technical." To us, "technical" means higher faster stronger, bigger tricks, more revolutions in the air. I think the ISU's use of the term refers more to deep and secure edges, powerful and efficient stroking -- that sort of thing. (Then, of course, there is "performance" -- putting your technical mastery of skating, as well as your big tricks, to the service of a coherent and esthetically pleasing program.)

This is the only reason I can think of why the ISU limits big tricks in the "technical program" -- because these tricks do not really demonstrate "skating technique" in the historically accepted sense.

Then, after the "technical" segment is over, here is the "free skate." What's free about it? For one thing, you are free to jump up a storm if you want to.

 

[Mathman]

On the issue of pre-rotation, I have a question for those more knowledgable thn I about the mechanics of skating.

Is it possible to pre-rotate a Lutz jump? As you approach on a back outside edge, you are curving away from the direction of the jump in the air. It seems like the more you rotate on the ice before lift-off, the more you are making the jump harder, not easier (as is the case for all other jumps). (?)

 

[PyeongChang2018]

On the issue of pre-rotation, I have a question for those more knowledgable thn I about the mechanics of skating.

Is it possible to pre-rotate a Lutz jump? As you approach on a back outside edge, you are curving away from the direction of the jump in the air. It seems like the more you rotate on the ice before lift-off, the more you are making the jump harder, not easier (as is the case for all other jumps). (?)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VziXOiM8Jaw this video should tell you all you need to know. Making the edge less deep (or inside) better allows for pre-rotation. Also jumping off the whole blade as opposed to the pick allows for pre-rotation.

 

[el henry]

But why disallow them in the first place. Why when the rules were modified to allow them in Men’s skating was it not also allowed in women’s?

Also two entire seasons seems plenty of time to prepare for the Olympics and train imo.. I also find it rather unsporting of the ISU to hinder its most technically advanced athletes in order to control the results of an Olympic outcome. Ironically that seems to go against the Olympic motto of “higher faster stronger”

Revolutions in the air is not the only realm of technical advancement.

I find it very sporting of the ISU if they will encourage other realms of technical advancement, which for me would comply more with the Olympic motto than the current system of prioritizing revolutions above all other technical skating achievements.

 

[macy]

On the issue of pre-rotation, I have a question for those more knowledgable thn I about the mechanics of skating.

Is it possible to pre-rotate a Lutz jump? As you approach on a back outside edge, you are curving away from the direction of the jump in the air. It seems like the more you rotate on the ice before lift-off, the more you are making the jump harder, not easier (as is the case for all other jumps). (?)

According to some people here yes, but let me remind you prerotation is not something recognized by the ISU nor do these users understand jump mechanics whatsoever, and most likely have never stepped a foot on the ice or learned how to jump. Prerotation does not exist under the judging system and I dont understand why so many people like to scrutinize and nit pick these jumps to the point where it makes the sport so much less enjoyable. It's pointless because all this arguing about "correct technique" are opinions and nothing more.

 

[PyeongChang2018]

According to some people here yes, but let me remind you prerotation is not something recognized by the ISU nor do these users understand jump mechanics whatsoever, and most likely have never stopped a foot on the ice or learned how to jump. Prerotation does not exist under the judging system and I dont understand why so many people like to scrutinize and nit pick these jumps to the point where it makes the sport so much less enjoyable. It's pointless because all this arguing about "correct technique" are opinions and nothing more.

The following was posted by gkelly:
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From the ISU Technical Panel Handbook:

Cheated take-off
A clear forward (backward for Axel type jump) take off will be considered as a downgraded jump. The toe loop is the most commonly cheated on take-off jump.
The Technical Panel may only watch the replay in regular speed to determine the cheat and downgrade on the take off (more often in combinations or sequences).

Toe loops are really the only jumps we see get < or << calls for incorrect takeoffs. Note that the panel is not allowed to use slow motion to determine prerotation.

Judges are required to give negative GOE if the element has a << symbol. (The reduction for << is -2 to -3; if there are other positive aspects of the element, the final GOE might be -1)

Judges are also supposed to take off -1 to -2 for jumps with < calls and for "Poor take-off" but the final GOE does not need to be negative

For triple and quadruple jumps, it's normal for the rotation to start before the skate has entirely left the ice. As long as the blade is still on a backward edge (or forward edge for axels) at takeoff, there's no penalty. But the quality would be considered.

If the upper body prerotates more than the blade and lower body, that's just a the way some skaters do the jump. Only the blade would be scrutinized.

There could be a reward in positive GOE for delayed rotation if the blade leaves the ice completely while still on the same size curve as the entry edge, before the tight rotation starts.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Revolutions in the air is not the only realm of technical advancement.

I am not implying that it is but I’m also not denying that it is a technical advancement either.

I find it very sporting of the ISU if they will encourage other realms of technical advancement, which for me would comply more with the Olympic motto than the current system of prioritizing revolutions above all other technical skating achievements.

Well I’m not trying to selectively pick and choose which technical mastery the skaters are allowed to master and train. I say go with your strengths and let the chips fall as they may. I really don’t look to limit skaters in any way be it through maximizing their jumps or their presentation.

I also find it kind of disrespectful to those who jump quads to diminish the feat as just “an extra revolution”. To me it’s much more than that and the the ability to do one deserves more credit than to be trivialized into a catch phrase. There are plenty of skaters who are very talented who have never achieved a quad. I think that in and of itself says something of the difficulty and ultimate value of being able to bring one to international competition.

I feel comfortable saying you should be able to allow quads and still encourage all aspects of skating simultaneously. I don’t think it has to be one way or the other.