Should Ladies Skating Allow Quads in the SP?

[KOBOT37]

Has it ever occured between 1892 and now?

Yes it did.

But it is extremely rare and very easy to spot.

and No, it's not what certain youtube celebrities and her (or his?) fan club think it is.

And I doubt there has ever been a quad with a cheated take off.

 

[KOBOT37]

https://i.ibb.co/HFbdSjh/image.png

is this moment what is being discussed ?

https://i.ibb.co/GHm7XMs/image.png

meanwhile actual cheated(forward take off on on double toeloop) take off above and obviously it was downgraded.

Difference is extremely easy to spot.

 

[McBibus]

I'm guilty too, but going back to the main topic: On what I think will happen, it's inevitable that Quads will be allowed in the SP unless the whole structure of programs changes (which is also being discussed). With timescale I think it wil be after the next Olympics earliest.

I agree on the timeline.

 

[PyeongChang2018]

https://ibb.co/2nCN9TZ

is this moment what is being discussed ?

https://ibb.co/LNKSMgQ

meanwhile actual cheated(forward take off on on double toeloop) take off above and obviously it was downgraded.

Difference is extremely easy to spot.

These links aren't working for me.

 

[KOBOT37]

These links aren't working for me.

https://d.radikal.ru/d16/2002/be/10720b041fb3.png

Anna from Video above

https://a.radikal.ru/a38/2002/3e/410b47348f38.png

Cheated take off

 

[PyeongChang2018]

https://d.radikal.ru/d16/2002/be/10720b041fb3.png

Anna from Video above

https://a.radikal.ru/a38/2002/3e/410b47348f38.png

Cheated take off

Take another screenshot of a few milliseconds after that, before either foot is off the ice and she is completely facing a new direction entirely, then we can talk. Or just teach me how to post a screenshot XD

 

[KOBOT37]

Take another screenshot of a few milliseconds after that, before either foot is off the ice and she is completely facing a new direction entirely, then we can talk. Or just teach me how to post a screenshot XD

just out of pure interest of what are you trying to prove here, done

https://a.radikal.ru/a21/2002/a8/563cdd99db69.png

so?

P.S

Any of Pre-Rotation truthers ever bother to think why no one ever calls it ? Or more importantly, why it is reviewed without slowed down degree-counters?

Ah,uh sorry, I remember, it's ISU conspiracy to get these evil Russians win

 

[PyeongChang2018]

just out of pure interest of what are you trying to prove here, done

https://a.radikal.ru/a21/2002/a8/563cdd99db69.png

so?

P.S

Any of Pre-Rotation truthers ever bother to think why no one ever calls it ? Or more importantly, why it is reviewed without slowed down degree-counters?

Ah,uh sorry, I remember, it's ISU conspiracy to get these evil Russians win

Thank you for supplying this! I appreciate it. This link here is Shcherbakova's point of takeoff from which her revolutions should be counted. Therefore, her quad lutz in this video is under-rotated.

I do think about why no one bothers to call it. Quads do attract attention on YouTube videos. Seeing young women competing these jumps gets people to watch, which in turn of course brings in money. So it makes sense that the ISU would want quads.

That being said, you don't need a degree-counter to see that these are not full-rotated jumps. Regular slow-motion works just fine.

I don't think this is exclusive to the Russians; it just happens to be that they are the ones competing these jumps. Keep in mind I actively rooted for Zagitova more than any other skater in the lead-up to PyeongChang and rooted for her last year too. She is not without technical faults either. I'm not anti-Russian; I'm just a fan of good technique.

 

[KOBOT37]

Funny thing is cheated take off (ironically, during that jump, Anna's 'pre-rotation' by this 'new definition' (before any of feet leave ice) is around 90 degrees, nowhere near 180) is getting called, judges need to be damn blind to miss it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRRGZQbHuX0&feature=youtu.be&t=200

just look at first jump (quad) and the second jump (supposed to be double,downgraded to single).

In order to 'cheat' during take off, Anna should turn 180 degrees and jump sort-of Axel.

Here is difference at around 180 degrees mark


cheated :

https://a.radikal.ru/a38/2002/3e/410b47348f38.png

Anna :


https://c.radikal.ru/c36/2002/75/012b4484b01c.png

Most of these 'Yuge pre-rotation not called, ISU corrupt' videos have 1% of blade barely being on the ice after 180 turn and uploaders wondering why aren't judges calling it 'forward take off'

That would have been funny if it hadn't become so annoying.

 

[PyeongChang2018]

Funny thing is cheated take off (ironically, during that jump, Anna's 'pre-rotation' by this 'new definition' (before any of feet leave ice) is around 90 degrees, nowhere near 180) is getting called, judges need to be damn blind to miss it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRRGZQbHuX0&feature=youtu.be&t=200

just look at first jump (quad) and the second jump (supposed to be double,downgraded to single).

In order to 'cheat' during take off, Anna should turn 180 degrees and jump sort-of Axel.

Here is difference at around 180 degrees mark


cheated :

https://a.radikal.ru/a38/2002/3e/410b47348f38.png

Anna :


https://c.radikal.ru/c36/2002/75/012b4484b01c.png

Most of these 'Yuge pre-rotation not called, ISU corrupt' videos have 1% of blade barely being on the ice after 180 turn and uploaders wondering why aren't judges calling it 'forward take off'

That would have been funny if it hadn't become so annoying.

Now you're getting confused. The 180 is about the point at which the second foot leaves the ice.

The reason Anna's jump is under-rotated is right here. Before she has left the ice, she is facing in this direction: https://a.radikal.ru/a21/2002/a8/563cdd99db69.png. This is the point at which the jump begins, because the first foot leaves the ice. So that's where you start counting the rotations. When Anna lands, she should be facing that same direction. She is not. Hence, the jump is under-rotated. She's also not using an outside edge, and her picking foot is using full-blade. So between the under-rotation, flat edge, and full-blade takeoff, I don't know how one could even attempt to argue that her quad lutz deserves positive GOE.

 

[Alex65]

Thank you for supplying this! I appreciate it. This link here is Shcherbakova's point of takeoff from which her revolutions should be counted. Therefore, her quad lutz in this video is under-rotated.

I do think about why no one bothers to call it. Quads do attract attention on YouTube videos. Seeing young women competing these jumps gets people to watch, which in turn of course brings in money. So it makes sense that the ISU would want quads.

That being said, you don't need a degree-counter to see that these are not full-rotated jumps. Regular slow-motion works just fine.

I don't think this is exclusive to the Russians; it just happens to be that they are the ones competing these jumps. Keep in mind I actively rooted for Zagitova more than any other skater in the lead-up to PyeongChang and rooted for her last year too. She is not without technical faults either. I'm not anti-Russian; I'm just a fan of good technique.

Solely for young Russian girls with quads. This is what your publications have been talking about here lately. Just clarified this.
What if I ask you to conduct an equally thorough technical analysis of all (including deuces and triples) jumps for all the girls who will be in the last two warm-ups at the upcoming World Cup? After all, they all claim high places. How are they doing with technology? This would really be interesting information for many. Please.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Funny thing is cheated take off (ironically, during that jump, Anna's 'pre-rotation' by this 'new definition' (before any of feet leave ice) is around 90 degrees, nowhere near 180) is getting called, judges need to be damn blind to miss it.

What ISU rule are you looking at that says 180 degrees of pre-rotation is a cheated takeoff? Almost everyone uses the full 180 so for the toe, salchow, and loop. It's not ideal on the flip or lutz, but there isn't a different standard for those jumps so there is no explicit penalty for doing so.

 

[KOBOT37]

What ISU rule are you looking at that says 180 degrees of pre-rotation is a cheated takeoff?

There is no such rule.

But for some reason,some people try to sell little part of blade being on the ice at the 180 degrees point as a 'cheated take off'.

 

[KOBOT37]

Now you're getting confused. The 180 is about the point at which the second foot leaves the ice.

No I am not confused, I am explaining what cheated take off looks like, you obviously aren't interested (who would have thought )

The reason Anna's jump is under-rotated is right here.

and her picking foot is using full-blade. So between the under-rotation, flat edge, and full-blade takeoff

You are free to continue living in your own world,with your own rules,seeing things you want to see, your choice. But nobody will ever deduct any GOE or downgrade any jumps because of it, Judges don't live in your world and Don't see things you want them to see

And no, it's not because ISU wants to see quads, overwise there wouldn't be tons of videos with slowed down triple jumps being judged by self made 'rules', downgrades and under-rotations aren't called because there aren't any.

Before she has left the ice, she is facing in this direction: https://a.radikal.ru/a21/2002/a8/563cdd99db69.png.

If you see any part of her except her hand facing forward and/or can't see her blade clearly facing backwards here, seriously, see an Ophthalmologist.

 

[KOBOT37]

Solely for young Russian girls with quads. This is what your publications have been talking about here lately. Just clarified this.
What if I ask you to conduct an equally thorough technical analysis of all (including deuces and triples) jumps for all the girls who will be in the last two warm-ups at the upcoming World Cup? After all, they all claim high places. How are they doing with technology? This would really be interesting information for many. Please.

I do not know about person in question but this entire ' I see 0.0001% Of blade still on the ice at 180 degress point,call it a downgrade' isn't only about Russian girls or even about quads. Shoma and Mao are also in that boat

 

[PyeongChang2018]

Solely for young Russian girls with quads. This is what your publications have been talking about here lately. Just clarified this.
What if I ask you to conduct an equally thorough technical analysis of all (including deuces and triples) jumps for all the girls who will be in the last two warm-ups at the upcoming World Cup? After all, they all claim high places. How are they doing with technology? This would really be interesting information for many. Please.

No, I want everyone to have good technique! Hence part of why Kim is my all-time favorite. I could do a thorough analysis during Worlds. Honestly I'm not super committed to World Cups--I don't even know which is next.

 

[Alex65]

No, I want everyone to have good technique! Hence part of why Kim is my all-time favorite. I could do a thorough analysis during Worlds. Honestly I'm not super committed to World Cups--I don't even know which is next.

Oh! I'm sorry! By World Cup, I meant the World Championship. Google again let me down.

 

[Lana05]

Also I hear these notions of gender equality here, how it's not fair for women to have differently requirements to men. Really?

In how many sports that involve jumping or running can women actually match men? Sprinting, tennis, high jump, hurdles... there's a reason there's two divisions. Men are biologically programmed to be stronger on average, and even at the elite level, there are physical differences. Ignoring this for the sake of political correctness is just insanity. There's nothing inherently wrong with a short program involving triples if that's what nearly all women are doing, and if you want skaters to not just focus on jumps.

Then why MtF trans athletes can compete in women's sports??

 

[Elucidus]

Now you're getting confused. The 180 is about the point at which the second foot leaves the ice.

The reason Anna's jump is under-rotated is right here. Before she has left the ice, she is facing in this direction: https://a.radikal.ru/a21/2002/a8/563cdd99db69.png. This is the point at which the jump begins, because the first foot leaves the ice. So that's where you start counting the rotations. When Anna lands, she should be facing that same direction. She is not. Hence, the jump is under-rotated.

Could you please provide link to ISU rule or definition, which says that "jump begins when first foot leaves the ice"? I am genuinely curios
Does it mean that Boyang Jin's 4Lz is also underrotated? I mean, looking at the same Boyang's moment of "leaving the ice with first foot" https://youtu.be/VziXOiM8Jaw?t=29 - Boyang's picking foot is facing almost in the same direction as Anna's picking foot - and they both landed with similar direction of the landing foot as well. If you meant Anna's face and not her foot - it can't be right because all URs are always counted by landing foot position (which is the same foot as picking foot)- judges are not interested in body position and never were. Only rotations of one and the same picking-landing foot matters when counting number of rotations. Therefore, if we try to apply your rule

This is the point at which the jump begins, because the first foot leaves the ice. So that's where you start counting the rotations. When Anna lands, she should be facing that same direction.

to Boyang https://youtu.be/VziXOiM8Jaw?t=73 because they landed identically - it should mean that Boyang's jump is URed as well - because he isn't facing in the same direction when he lands.

 

[PyeongChang2018]

Could you please provide link to ISU rule or definition, which says that "jump begins when first foot leaves the ice"? I am genuinely curios
Does it mean that Boyang Jin's 4Lz is also underrotated? I mean, looking at the same Boyang's moment of "leaving the ice with first foot" https://youtu.be/VziXOiM8Jaw?t=29 - Boyang's picking foot is facing almost in the same direction as Anna's picking foot - and they both landed with similar direction of the landing foot as well. If you meant Anna's face and not her foot - it can't be right because all URs are always counted by landing foot position (which is the same foot as picking foot)- judges are not interested in body position and never were. Only rotations of one and the same picking-landing foot matters when counting number of rotations. Therefore, if we try to apply your rule to Boyang https://youtu.be/VziXOiM8Jaw?t=73 because they landed identically - it should mean that Boyang's jump is URed as well - because he isn't facing in the same direction when he lands.

When else would the jump begin?