Johnny and the quad

[Mathman]

Which is still a bit too much, b/c there's a standard -2 GOE for 2footing a jump.

Well, landing kerplunk on both feet is –2 GOE. But “touch down with free foot” is only –1.

Also, the 2-foot landing is one of those “-2, -GOE” things, so a judge could give –1 GOE if the judge thought the jump otherwise deserved positive GOE.

 

[Hsuhs]

But “touch down with free foot” is only –1.

You're right, I read that now too. It's SO open for interpretation though, since the judges are not allowed to replay the jumps in slow-mo.

 

[enlight78]

Since judges can't watch a slow-mo, can a skater challenge a score?

 

[Mathman]

It's SO open for interpretation though, since the judges are not allowed to replay the jumps in slow-mo.

Actually, I don't mind that. It is one of the remaining vestiges of the concept of judging.

If twelve good men and true all make their best judgment, that's as good a system as we are likely to come up with, IMHO.

 

[Hsuhs]

Since judges can't watch a slow-mo, can a skater challenge a score?

My understanding is, no, never.

Actually, I don't mind that. It is one of the remaining vestiges of the concept of judging.

They slow-mo in other sports, why not in FS?

 

[Tinymavy15]

.

1. Fully rotated quad ( = three-and-three-quarters turns in the air, less pre-rotaion) with a fall: 5.0 points.

2. Valiant try but a little short on the rotation, saves the landing: usually 3 points or less.

3. Forget the quad and do a triple: 4 points plus GOE.

So if you are not comfortable going into the quad, just make sure you get around 4 times, and then fall down. It worked for jefrey buttle.

why do a quad at all? becasue then you can still have 7 more triples. if you do seven clean triples with no quad attempt you will be 5 whole points less than the guy who did 7 clean triples and a fallen quad attempt. wierd, but that's the Cop for you!

 

[enlight78]

So if you are not comfortable going into the quad, just make sure you get around 4 times, and then fall down. It worked for jefrey buttle.

why do a quad at all? becasue then you can still have 7 more triples. if you do seven clean triples with no quad attempt you will be 5 whole points less than the guy who did 7 clean triples and a fallen quad attempt. wierd, but that's the Cop for you!

This is exactly why I believe men should only be allowed to have seven jumping passes.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

why do a quad at all? becasue then you can still have 7 more triples. if you do seven clean triples with no quad attempt you will be 5 whole points less than the guy who did 7 clean triples and a fallen quad attempt. wierd, but that's the Cop for you!

OK. It's all about points, we all agree. Now since Kulic won the Olys with a quad, how many championships have been won without a quad? Don't forget these are top skaters and a quad plus 6 more jumps make big points.

Joe

 

[Eddie Lee]

No, but he [Johnny] will jeopardize the quality of the program he's skating by leaving out jumping passes and being undertrained and not-very-focused..

With an emphasis on undertrained. I believe this is a big problem since he won his first nationals, and has become full blown since Olympics. When one hears "I have been training hard for this competition" (Spokane Nationals, for instance)--and his coach makes a point to "second the fact", the question becomes "when exactly did he start this hard training", and "what had he been doing before he started the hard training" and "why should it take his coach to confirm it"? One might well conclude that Johnny might not be a good, consistent trainer in spite of his recorded claims, and his coach wanted the public to know that this time he was telling the truth!

As for me, I believe many social activities, many skating exhibitions, and many excursions involving additional interests have caused Johnny to lose his competitive goals, his training urgency, and lack of focus. I, for one, do not think he will regain this focus. Too bad, because I believe if Johnny got all of his eggs in one basket, and really secured that elusive quad, along with the stamina to finish an LP without losing steam, his skating would become legendary. He has the physical/artistic ability, but perhaps not the mental strength.

 

[Ladskater]

My feelings on the quad are as elusive as the quad is to some of the skaters. I feel it is a shame that skaters like Johnny Weir and Jeff Buttle have to sacrifice aritistry for one more turn in the air which one may or may not even notice when it happens. I would rather these skaters stick with their artistic flair and leave the quad out. I think it spoils the program when they attempt it and land splat on the ice or do a so-so version which is downgraded by the judges. What's the point? I would rather see them do a successful triple. I don't blame Johnny for wanting to leave it out.

 

[psycho]

One might well conclude that Johnny might not be a good, consistent trainer in spite of his recorded claims, and his coach wanted the public to know that this time he was telling the truth!

We are basing this ridiculous assumption on a question asked at a press conference?! For the record, Lysacek's coach was also asked to talk about his training too. What can you "conclude" from that? Any hidden messages I missed?

When Johnny is undertrained, he's honest about it. He said he felt unprepared for the GP season last year, for many various reasons. He was ready for nationals, and it showed. Unfortunately, he could not deal with the pressure in the long program, but his short and practices were stellar, and showed no signs of undertraining.

BTW, Tarasova has said that Johnny works hard and trains well. Or is she also lying for him? Brian Joubert who trained with him one summer said he worked hard. Why would his rival lie about him?

 

[Mathman]

They slow-mo in other sports, why not in FS?

They do have slow motion replays for the technical specialists. I think this is in line with other sports. I don't think other judged sports -- diving, equestrian, gymnastics, etc. -- rely on instant replays.

So the principle would be, yes, instant replays, slow motion, etc., for the technical calls -- was that triple Axel fully rotated or not? But in judging the quality of the element for GOEs, I would say that the real-time impressions of the judges is what we want.

 

[Eddie Lee]

When Johnny is undertrained, he's honest about it. He said he felt unprepared for the GP season last year, for many various reasons. He was ready for nationals, and it showed. Unfortunately, he could not deal with the pressure in the long program, but his short and practices were stellar, and showed no signs of undertraining.

The GP is a large part of the season! If he's not training consistently during all that time, Nationals turns in to a cram scene, doesn't it? Doesn't work. By the way, for Johnny, his SP & practices were less than stellar....I saw them all! And the bronze medal certainly shows that Johnny was not at his best--and I place it right at the feet of inconsistent training over an extended period of time. Little wonder he felt the pressure.

 

[Mathman]

So if you are not comfortable going into the quad, just make sure you get around 4 times, and then fall down. It worked for jefrey buttle.

why do a quad at all? becasue then you can still have 7 more triples. if you do seven clean triples with no quad attempt you will be 5 whole points less than the guy who did 7 clean triples and a fallen quad attempt. wierd, but that's the Cop for you!

But still, I don't think planning a quad fall is worth it.

Let's say you don't have a quad at all. So you go something like

3A
3A+3T
3Lz
3Lz+3Lo
3F+2Lo+2Lo
3S
2A
2A

That's eight triples.

If you substitute a quad fall for one of the double Axels, that only gains you 1.5 points (5.0 points for the quad fall instead of 3.5 points for the double Axel.)

What you give up is -- first, it hurts. Plus, it takes you a little minute to pick yourself up and get yourself together to continue with the program. This should adversely affect the program component scores in all categories.

Whether the judges will like the fact that at least you tried, or whether they will penalize you for not skating cleanly -- that seems like a toss-up to me.

So I really don't think it ever pays to fall down, even if the CoP does not penalize a fall on a quad very much.

 

[psycho]

The GP is a large part of the season! If he's not training consistently during all that time, Nationals turns in to a cram scene, doesn't it? Doesn't work. By the way, for Johnny, his SP & practices were less than stellar....I saw them all! And the bronze medal certainly shows that Johnny was not at his best--and I place it right at the feet of inconsistent training over an extended period of time. Little wonder he felt the pressure.

He was still training during the GP season, he just wasn't prepared for the GP season because he was on tour all summer. So were Tanith and Ben, and their new nationals free dance can also be considered a "cram session" but no one is calling them consistently undertrained. This is ridiculous. And no, a bronze medal does not show that he was not at his best. It shows that he could not handle the pressure of Evan having the skate of his life right before him and getting a mind-numbing score. I think most of top skaters would not be able to do that either.

From the reports of people and journalists who were at practice, they said that Johnny had great practices, and he was landing quads no problem. I saw the short program on tv and it looked great to me. His spins and jumps were wonderful.

The fact remains, you are not Johnny or his coach. You don't know the whole story. You can't just accuse him of being consistently undertrained. It's not fair.

 

[Eddie Lee]

He was still training during the GP season, he just wasn't prepared for the GP season because he was on tour all summer.

Evan was also on tour! And sure, all of the competitors are in training throughout the entire competitive season! BTW, Johnny's GP's came considerably later in the season than did Evan's (i.e. Johnny was not at SA.)

And no, a bronze medal does not show that he was not at his best. It shows that he could not handle the pressure of Evan having the skate of his life right before him and getting a mind-numbing score. I think most of top skaters would not be able to do that either.

Evan also had pressure--as did all of the skaters. Nationals is a pressure pot--some say the most nerve wrecking! A top skater must be prepared to withstand the pressure--by gaining confidence in training! You may recall that Evan also was in the lead following the SP. And yes, a bronze shows that for whatever reason, Johnny was not up to his par!

From the reports of people and journalists who were at practice, they said that Johnny had great practices, and he was landing quads no problem. I saw the short program on tv and it looked great to me. His spins and jumps were wonderful.

Johnny is a wonderful skater, a special artist. But it was quite evident to those in attendance at Spokane Nationals (myself included) that Johnny skated as if he were behind the 8-ball during the whole competition. And I think I have stated the reason why. If consistent training isn't there, the performance usually shows it--and Johnny's did. And there is nothing unfair about making reasonable observations, firsthand!

 

[psycho]

Evan was also on tour! And sure, all of the competitors are in training throughout the entire competitive season! BTW, Johnny's GP's came considerably later in the season than did Evan's (i.e. Johnny was not at SA.)

No. Johnny was at Skate Canada a whole week later. With two new programs. Unlike Evan. And Evan had problems with his short program all of GP too. Was he also undertrained?

BTW, when Evan did not perform well at Worlds, do you think that means he was undertrained? What about Jeff Buttle? Does this "reading between the lines" apply to everyone else, or just Johnny?

Evan also had pressure--as did all of the skaters

.
To paraphrase Dick Button, it is a lot harder to defend a title than to win one. The pressure on Johnny was tremendous not only for the whole competition, but also because Evan delivered a great performance right before Johnny had to skate. Everyone said what a tough spot to skate Johnny had.

Johnny is a wonderful skater, a special artist. But it was quite evident to those in attendance at Spokane Nationals (myself included) that Johnny skated as if he were behind the 8-ball during the whole competition. And I think I have stated the reason why.

Like I said before, many other people have also said that Johnny was solid in SP and practice. Maybe you see what you want to see. And no, you did not state the reason why. You stated what you assumed to be the reason, with little basis in facts. The fact is his coach said he was prepared, and he said he was prepared. They'd know better than you, no?

 

[temperboy28]

Of course he needs a quad. With all the strong men in front of him now, and his own sliding ranking and status, he would have a big challenge to win a medal even with a clean performance with a quad. It is almost amusing to read some of the comments in this thread, as if this is a skater so superior to others maybe he could/should be able to come out on top even without a quad. Maybe you need to be reminded this is a skater who even lost the short program at Nationals to someone like Evan Lysacek, with both doing the same jumps. If that is how the judges view him compared to Lysacek, imagine how they view him compared to the real big guns - Lambiel, Joubert, Takahashi, Plushenko if he returns.

So the quad is not even negotiable if he any hopes of winning a World medal at this point. If he isnt thinking of doing it, he might as well turn his attention to just staying in the top 10 at Worlds, and staying on the U.S World team. Even with a quad, he would need to skate perfectly and others make mistakes to win a World medal at this point.

 

[antmanb]

A double-footed quad is downgraded to a triple, I believe. And then negative GOE for two footing it. So I believe as CoP works, he would get less points for a double footed quad than he would for a well-done triple.

No I don't think that is the case anymore - i think this only happened in the first pilot year of COP. A double footed landing can get either a -2 or a -3 on the GOE dpending on how bad it is. THe downgrade only happens in the jump is short on rotation by more than 90 degrees. So if it is a very badly two footed landing that warrants a -3 then as long as he stands it and rotates it he could get 6 points for the quad, or if it isn't a bad two foot 7 points.

Ant

 

[antmanb]

No. An underrotated (according to the caller) quad is downgraded to a triple and thus treated as overrotated _and_ gets hammered in GOE.

I think this is a common mis-conception of the COP - when a jump is downgraded it is not considered an over-rotated double, it is a double whammy for the underotation. The jump is downgraded but the GOE descriptions refer to the jump being underotated by up to 90 degrees (which is not downgraded) being given a lower GOE than one that is between 90 degrees and 180 degrees whichh gets an even lower one (i forget the actual GOEs that are recommended).

Ant