2019-20 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[Tolstoj]

I think there’s generally a higher level of expectations when it comes to Eteri and her students. Whether or not Alina continues, she had a better run than a lot of russian skaters.

I mean, look at Sotskova. She barely had 1 good senior season, it was up until Europeans and after that pretty much all of her performances were quite upsetting.
No one however picks apart her technique, her jumps, and stuff like that. No one even says that it’s because of Panova or Buyanova, although she had less time as a successful senior compared to Alina. And no one should do that!

There’s definitely a lot of pressure on all of those girls. From ever increasing competition, to pressure from media from a young age, to heavy weight of high expectations as athletes who represent Russia. A lot of girls in Russia have on average shorter careers due to that.
And there’s also a double standard.

It's complicated and very political too, cause i think there are coaches who worked well and didn't get credit in Russia for what they did (Rukavicin's group for instance, they worked well both on artistry and technique and rarely got rewarded for working on the complete package, Turenko did an amazing job with Gubanova and also never got credit), while others were just pushed and didn't produce results.

To me Buyanova could have done a lot more with Sotskova, i complained for years how basically they pick skaters just for finishing touches and not addressing the issues, and even the packaging wasn't like the most memorable stuff.

So the little underrotations became more evident over time and a bent arm over the head couldn't solve anything, while the programs were lovely but lacked substance in my opinion, they were good for the first season, at the Olympics she needed a more inspired free. In US i think Polina Edmunds also fell under the same problems, missing that extra step needed.

In general it seems many russian coaches are just fixated by the idea of having newcomers from juniors every season so they don't bother fixing the issues their current seniors have, as if it is impossible to fix:

"Puberty ruined X skater" -> we've heard that so many times when in reality most often it's the coach who doesn't care about staying with that skater and rework all their jumps cause it takes time, you can rather not work on it and focus on the fresh new junior coming up.

But it's not magic: we've seen coaches Rafael Aryutynyan did it with both Ashley Wagner and Mariah Bell, Mishin did it with Liza Tutktamysheva, he's doing it with Nastya Gulyakova.

That is why i think those who are willing to work and adjust their technique, will remain in the mix for longer, while you'll have many other juniors who have one very good season and then completely disappear.

 

[Arbitrary]

There are talks to completely cancel Tokyo 2020.
What about Winter 2022? To cancel too?

If decided that way, we may clearly drop the current pack ages 11+.

 

[plushyfan]

Thank you for your explanations. 3A and VUK. Cute.

 

[Fluture]

These situations all have multiple truths, everyone has their own. None of us even sees a full picture, it’s just bits and pieces here and there. Based on that incomplete information and our own life/experience/preferences we lean towards one or another view of the situation.

I’d say, Fluture, you have your point of view, because there’s already some bias prior to that. (Read it till the end, no ill intentions). As a Evgenia fan, you have already a certain negative perception of Eteri to begin with because of how they parted ways. That’s understandable and normal. Then there’s your age, I assume you’re closer to the age of Evgenia and other girls their age, so naturally you can relate more to her rather than Eteri. The country you’re from, your upbringing, your personal situations, your surroundings, all of that forms how you think and feel about those things.

Same thing is right for me and everyone else. I’m quite biased too. We all have biases, pre-conditions, perceptions and experiences that determine how we view situations. I don’t think there are any media campaigns in place, I just don’t. I’ve worked in close proximity to PR and marketing, and to my eye none of it looks like a campaign. If someone consumes a lot of 1 type content, lives in FS bubble, then there definitely could be a reason to have a skewed vision that FS is *that important for people to have PR teams and campaigns. The reality is imo quite different.
Another thing would be that I have had some personal encounters with coaches (not from FS). Athletes leaving without letting them know is something that happened to some of them, it’s not all that rare. Knowing their experiences also shifts my perception and makes me somewhat biased to how I see things.

Lastly, cultural differences also affect how we see things. During my studies in Europe my professor once told me: „In Russia teachers are treated like Gods. I want my students to treat me like that“. It was a joke, but there is truth to that. In Russia (and in some Asian cultures) it is some sort of an unspoken cultural conduct to treat teachers with a lot of special respect, with strict subordination one may say. I don’t know how to explain it, but there’s definitely a big difference. If you’ve experienced it, you know what it’s like.

That is to say, we all have our own understanding of situations. We can only speak on how things look from our personal perspective.
However! the consistent portrayal of Eteri as a mega powerful Anti-Christ arch-villain, who eats babies for breakfast is getting a little bit tiring for everyone. she for sure is not an angel, not the best of the best or whatever.
But the „she controls all media organizations in Russia, she owns ISU and all the judges, including those in domestic competitions in foreign countries, and all russian figure skating“ from some of the users here does sound absurd to me. To me it compares to „5g causes corona“ type of conspiracies.

First of all, thank you for your response.

Nevertheless, I must say that I found some of your points quite astonishing.

Of course, all our opinions are based on subjective feelings, at least to a certain degree. Of course, age, personal situations, upbringing and the like play a role. Of course, we‘re all somewhat biased. I still do not see why these factors should prevent a discussion. Sure, we all have our own truth and we‘re not likely to ever find out the full extent of a situation. But this hasn‘t ever been a decisive argument to not have a peaceful discussion since in the end, we should still be able to make somewhat objective statements, not controlled by any ingrained prejudice. And yes, I do think I‘m capable of that, even when it comes to Eteri and even though I‘m an Evgenia fan. Don‘t worry. If I didn’t think I was, I wouldn’t have joined in the discussion.

Besides, I don’t really get your point about the media campaigns. So you think there aren‘t any in place in Russian skating since figure skating isn’t that important? Really? To make this clear - we‘re talking about Russia, the country where test skates are a huge spectacle, where figure skaters are constantly featured on TV, where them getting their driving license or dressing up as Sailor Moon make headlines.

So, if it is not TeamTutberidze knowing their ways around media wars and PR, how else do you explain the immediate and systematic slandering of their ex-athletes in the media? How else do you explain skaters like Trusova going from diligent and hard-working to “traitors“ and “problematic“ in the span of a few days?

You raised the point of me being biased due to Evgenia. Maybe I am. Even so, with her it was the second time this happened, not the first. Before we had Yulia. Now we have Trusova. All within a few years of each other. It is the third time this has happened and it is the third time it hasn‘t been pretty. And I‘m supposed to believe this is all because of cultural differences and really, TeamTutberidze‘s dance coach was in the right to call Sasha a traitor (with none of Eteri/Daniil refuting it) because she didn‘t thank them properly, didn‘t treat them like “gods“? Well, if so, then this is exactly what I was talking about in my original post. I raised this exact argument: how many of her current athletes and students go around thinking that these negative comments would never happen to them since they‘d never ever disrespect Eteri? This might just be my very own, personal and biased opinion but I wouldn‘t be surprised if Trusova had been one of them.

Also, for the records. There‘s an Austrian flag next to my profile picture since that‘s the country I was born in and it’s the country I still live in. But it doesn‘t change that I was raised by a mother who grew up in a country with a similar attitude towards teachers. I know that bringing flowers is not just about that alone, it‘s about a sign of respect. I know because I was raised like this. So, yeah, believe me, I get it. I just think that there‘s a line, somewhere. And I draw it at systematically bad-mouthing students as soon as they leave. Especially when, in the case of Trusova, they didn‘t even do anything wrong. It‘s for the sake of it, the very fact that they dared to leave. I disagree with behavior like this.

Now, as for your last point. I‘m a bit baffled, frankly, at where you possibly managed to read anything of that sort into my post. I specifically clarified that I do NOT believe that Eteri controls the entire Russian media, that this was more than far-fetched. The rest is just, no matter the ironic touch to it, exaggerated and intended to make Eteri look like a victim when she isn‘t one.

I would really appreciate if attempts at reasonable discussion didn‘t always end in accusations of being a hater, or claiming Eteri was a “villain“. I don‘t think that (it‘s a pretty black and white view anyway - either she‘s entirely bad or good) and I didn‘t say anything of that sort. Like I said, she‘s human and she‘s allowed to feel hurt if students whom she‘s spent a lot of time with, leave her. It‘s a totally understandable reaction.

So, no, the point of my whole post wasn‘t even to judge Eteri’s character. It was to add a sort of middle ground to the ongoing discussion, an argument that lies between “she never did anything wrong and claiming that is slander and rumours“ and “she controls the entire media“. So, my point was: Eteri for sure does not control the Russian media but she also knows her way around PR and is aware of what she needs to do to stay in the public‘s good graces and simultaneously make her leaving students look bad. You can disagree with this, of course. But please don’t put words in my mouth.

 

[Thrashergurl]

Unfortunately for the Eteri girls, their team had marketed them as the 3A, plus Alina. They’ve been photographed in magazines together, and marketed as #eteriteamforprogress.

I think many forgot that it’s not a team sport, or about any specific teams progress. These girls want to win, and only one can.

Trusova has now separated herself from the 3A. It’ll be interesting to see what the future holds for all of them.

 

[flanker]

Unfortunately for the Eteri girls, their team had marketed them as the 3A, plus Alina. They’ve been photographed in magazines together, and marketed as #eteriteamforprogress.

I think many forgot that it’s not a team sport, or about any specific teams progress. These girls want to win, and only one can.

Trusova has now separated herself from the 3A. It’ll be interesting to see what the future holds for all of them.

3A was fan's invention, not the team's invention, but so what? And what's wrong or "unfortunate" with being photographed together?

They are members of one team and of coure skaters from one team will be seen together if they work together every day, like classmates work together, are seen together and are photographed together. They are together even if not each of them is a friend of everyone else.

Why this should be considered equal to twisting skater's names.

 

[nussnacker]

Text

That villain part wasn’t about you, if you read carefully, it said „some posters“
What I meant is „some posters“ or „other posters“. It was a general commentary on the thing that“ thinking whether something’s planned out/wrong/etc would be subjective, truly would depend on your personal experiences, but conspiracy talk sometimes gets out of hand“.
previously posters were replying mainly to the conspiracy talk, because those comments began this discussion in the first place.
Posters on this website regularly post this type of thoughts, where apparently Eteri influenced results of Korean and Japanese nationals, where she controls major media companies, the judging in ISU and outside of it, etc etc etc it’s really hard to take that seriously, because it sounds quite absurd.

My personal take on the rest: Yes, and FS is surely popular in Russia, but it’s nowhere near football or hockey, and probably never would be.
1 person posting something on his social media is not a PR campaign. Responding to requests for commentary from journalists is not a PR campaign. Or maybe PR campaigns in Austria and Russia are just very different compared to where I had my experience, who knows, I can be wrong on this too

Again, point being made: it’s ok to have opinions, they’re subjective. However, the previous commentary people were dismissive of, is really hard not to dismiss. The absurdity levels are through the roof sometimes.

 

[LiamForeman]

I'm 95% sure I'm smelling a "15yo junior in their first senior year upsets favorites for Olympic gold" 2.0 with Kamila.

Starlight, I predicted this THREE years ago!!!
Lol. Barring injury, YES!

 

[Alex65]

........And I‘m supposed to believe this is all because of cultural differences...

I am sure that the "cultural differences" in this case are only an excuse for people who can not allow gray spots on the reputation of their idols.

and really, TeamTutberidze‘s dance coach was in the right to call Sasha a traitor (with none of Eteri/Daniil refuting it) because she didn‘t thank them properly, didn‘t treat them like “gods“? ...

No one has such a right, especially with respect to a teenager. This is not a criminal offense, but it is evidence of the lack of a moral and ethical foundation for these people. This means that they are ready to easily trample the pride and dignity of a young man whom their parents entrusted to them. What is terrible is that modern society basically perceives this as something natural. Тhough, to my satisfaction, it was this moment in this story that caused the greatest indignation of a large number of people who stood up for Sasha at that time.

I raised this exact argument: how many of her current athletes and students go around thinking that these negative comments would never happen to them since they‘d never ever disrespect Eteri? This might just be my very own, personal and biased opinion but I wouldn‘t be surprised if Trusova had been one of them.
.....

My opinion is that Sasha and her parents tried their best to do everything in the most correct way. But the excessive talkativeness of Plushenko and the violent speeches of Zheleznyakov, together with the eloquent silence of Daniel and Eteri (no matter how you would like it, you won’t succeed anyway) brought all their efforts down the drain.

 

[eterislouisvuitton]

According to the Cricket Club Medvedeva was asked to retire after the Olympics, the technique was regressing severely if you look at her jumps in 2018. So using Medvedeva as the prime example is questionable, she would have retired if she didn't leave. On Zagitova, we'll see when it happens, and when it happens i mean full seasonS not one Sotnikova-style comeback at Rostelelcom Cup and then 7th at Nationals and that's it.

We have enough cases now to be skeptical on all those "comebacks". Tutberidze already implied in past interviews that she doesn't aim at long lasting careers with her skaters.

Originally i thought this was a result of the coaches background, coming from novices and juniors, so they'd have learned over time what it is to train more mature skaters, but with these rules there is no point for them to change. So in the end it's not even their fault, they're playing by the rules. (which should change in my opinion)



Besides Satoko and maybe Samodurova, no one prerotates their triples to this degree.
https://youtu.be/VziXOiM8Jaw?t=2

The position on take-off is wrong, the edge also is wrong sometimes, not as wrong in the case of the video above and it is indeed underrotated. We have seen some response on ISU on this matter, still not enough in my opinion.



On the artistic part, if you believe that okay, that's is your opinion. For me what they have is:

- speed
- transitions
- elements well timed with the music.

(Medvedeva obviously considering her career up to Pyeongchang, since then we have seen improvements on posture and commitment).

But they lack the interpretation, performance, you want to OWN the music, not just skating through. Kostornaya, Shcherbakova, Zagitova are a bit more expressive than the others you mentioned, still nowhere near at the level of for example an Akiko Suzuki or a Satoko Miyahara.

Take Valieva: beautiful girl, very talented and flexible, her programs are difficult but done in a extremely robotic style, with no facial expression whatsoever. That's fine for juniors, but i would never call that "the most artistic in the world".

THIS is the level of steps sequence (in terms of range of movements, flow, commitment) i would want to see from the most artistic skater in the world.

https://youtu.be/TaEklpjUXFw?t=121
https://youtu.be/8Gw0EJQWCQk?t=263

This is what we got from the reigning World Champion Alina Zagitova

https://youtu.be/qICxeJipDLc?t=78
https://youtu.be/IuuSVbp1bm8?t=225

Not the most artistic in the world for me.

I understand that it takes years and years to reach that level, working with the best choreographers and ice dancers in the world, that's something i wish all Eteri students will have a chance to do at some point in the future, but probably they won't cause they all go for similar packaging, same choreographer, and retired in 2-3 years, they don't have time to work on that artistical range.

Have you seen the improvements on skating skills, flow, posture, Diana Davis she's making with Igor Shpilband and Pasquale Camerlengo? That's what i'd want to see from these other girls because they deserve better.

At the very least Daniil is showing some signs of improvements, cause in the past they used to give skaters the same exact style between short and the long, (classical for the short and classical for the long, piano music for the short and piano music for the long,...). This season at least they tried to go for contrast with the seniors, but the style of choreography is still a bit too formulaic.

It's like Figure Skating went from being a sophisticated restaurant to fast food. Both respectable in their own ways, but if we talk about quality there is no discussion here.



I literally said in the sentence after that you could say the same for other rinks and that's true.

But the scale Eteri operates is so much bigger which means so many more ruined athletes, and yet i'd argue what Mishin did with Liza, waiting and fixing her issues should not be understated cause Eteri would have never given her all that time to recover and fix her problems.

Look at 2012 Tuktamysheva and 2020 Tuktamysheva, her body changed completely and so is the technique.

Thing or Eteri is that if one doesn't work out, she has the next one ready. She doesn't have to spend her time correcting and making sustainable technique with one of her students when the next one is right there.

 

[composer]

Starlight, I predicted this THREE years ago!!!
Lol. Barring injury, YES!

At this rate though Kamila will be the favorite going in lol. My bet is on an upset of one kind or another.

 

[YuBluByMe]

That user wasn’t mocking the names themselves. He or she was being sarcastic about the nicknames that were created for these talented group of skaters.

And quite frankly, I agree. The nicknames deserve to be mocked. They sound silly and, worse, suggest that the skaters come in a set, like a pack of cards. Not once have I referred to Kostornaia,Scherbakova, or Trusova as “3A” and I never will. They are elite athletes, not members of some one-hit wonder girl band.

 

[starlight97]

A genuine question not related to any recent statement here but rather sth I get from reading through this platform: Why do some posters insist that Medvedeva has improved since leaving Eteri?
She has reworked her 2A and when she lands it, it is improved indeed (not when she falls tho) and had tried to improve the flutz but other than that there is only regression...?
She is slower, her spins have gotten worse, sometimes she doesn't get the levels anymore, programs have been simplified, less transitions, she is very inconsistent.
The interpretation part is subjective. I do think it has improved cause she has finally stopped the miming, but the miming had nothing to do with her old coaches cause she was the only one in that group doing that do the extent that it was at.
So while there may be one or two things that have improved, overall she has clearly regressed to the point of not even making the GPF.

Now I'm not saying this regression is to blame on Orser or that it would never have happened had she stayed with Eteri. It would probably have happened under any circumstance cause her technique cannot sustain her new body, injuries etc. And maybe Eteri did recommend her to retire. But not cause she was done with her, but rather cause she could see in which direction it was going?
It's not her fault, neither her new coach's. But I do wonder why people keep pushing the narrative that she "has improved so much" and "makes great progress" etc ?

 

[TallyT]

That user wasn’t mocking the names themselves. He or she was being sarcastic about the nicknames that were created for these talented group of skaters.

And quite frankly, I agree. The nicknames deserve to be mocked. They sound silly and, worse, suggest that the skaters come in a set, like a pack of cards. Not once have I referred to Kostornaia,Scherbakova, or Trusova as “3A” and I never will. They are elite athletes, not members of some one-hit wonder girl band.

Problem is, while I do see the lump-them-together nickname as a tad dehumanising (especially with the suggestions that 'Alina should come back to complete the set' as if they were little boxes made of ticky tacky and not individuals with ambitions and aspirations that can and will clash) but - even if they didn't themselves like it - they played into it for the fandom and the cameras and the media hype. They may be teenagers, but they were old enough to know it was media hype. And I don't blame them in the slightest: few skaters, even Eteri's stars, are going to pass up a media tick that has proven to be popular, I wouldn't myself.

But you can't eat your pr cake and have it too.

 

[VenusHalley]

Yes, indeed, I was just mocking the whole 3A thing. While the fans likely mean it in good way, it confirms what many casual figure skating fans say about how they do not bother to remember all those Russian names, because next years there will be other Russian names to remember.

3A could be explain that is is sorta funny coincidence that top three skaters have names starting with one letter... the VUK thing seems... just superlazy.

 

[Scott512]

There are talks to completely cancel Tokyo 2020.
What about Winter 2022? To cancel too?

If decided that way, we may clearly drop the current pack ages 11+.

Tokyo is in jeopardy unless there is a vaccine. Even if there is a vaccine you there it's going to have to be a different kind of Olympics you're not going to be able to basically have hundreds of thousands of people from around the world attend. I am worried about the 2022 Winter Olympics because of location. Again if there's a vaccine or some kind of medicine to help or if there is no problem with coronavirus then the games go off but it's going to be a different kind of Winter Olympics you're not going to have hundreds of thousands of people attending from around the world especially at that time of year when a virus is most devastating. I really would like to see those Winter Olympics move to Salt Lake City because it's such a clean City. But there may not be time to do that. One thing is for sure the next Summer Olympics in the next Winter Olympics will be a little bit different. Maybe some of vents without fans.

 

[Mathman]

I think we could use some perspective here. There is nothing wrong with saying "Alexandra Trusova, Anna Shcherbakova and Aliona Kostornaia -- the '3As' -- exploded onto the scene last season, and lades' figure skating will never be the same!."

Just like the 1988 men's Olympic dual was "the battle of the Brians."

As for 'Amila, 'Aria and 'Aya, that's a clever one-time witticism. Where is the harm in any of this?

 

[Skater Boy]

Starlight, I predicted this THREE years ago!!!
Lol. Barring injury, YES!

I think we have to remember there is Alysa Liu and Rika Khira. If Rika keeps developing and doesn't have any body changes she will have the tech and mature artistry to wiThe n OGM The Eteri lady to challenge most likely is about 13 or 14 right now. which means the 4 A's might age out as to their prime. Sad but 17 is quite old it seems in russia to win gold. Deep down we want and hope one of the senior Russian ladies does it - Liza, Evgenia or Alina. At least in the US they will have Alyssa borne in this century, and then Bradie, Gracie, Mariah or Mira who were at least born last century.

 

[Amei]

A genuine question not related to any recent statement here but rather sth I get from reading through this platform: Why do some posters insist that Medvedeva has improved since leaving Eteri?
She has reworked her 2A and when she lands it, it is improved indeed (not when she falls tho) and had tried to improve the flutz but other than that there is only regression...?
She is slower, her spins have gotten worse, sometimes she doesn't get the levels anymore, programs have been simplified, less transitions, she is very inconsistent.
The interpretation part is subjective. I do think it has improved cause she has finally stopped the miming, but the miming had nothing to do with her old coaches cause she was the only one in that group doing that do the extent that it was at.
So while there may be one or two things that have improved, overall she has clearly regressed to the point of not even making the GPF.

Now I'm not saying this regression is to blame on Orser or that it would never have happened had she stayed with Eteri. It would probably have happened under any circumstance cause her technique cannot sustain her new body, injuries etc. And maybe Eteri did recommend her to retire. But not cause she was done with her, but rather cause she could see in which direction it was going?
It's not her fault, neither her new coach's. But I do wonder why people keep pushing the narrative that she "has improved so much" and "makes great progress" etc ?

Some of her jumps have improved and from what we can see in practice videos and warm-ups at competitions she can do some of the jumps really well, but in competition she tends to regress on her technique.

I think some find that she's improved purely because the miming is not there as much; for some people regardless of how good a skater is, if you hate their program style it ruins your ability to enjoy them.

. But I do wonder why people keep pushing the narrative that she "has improved so much" and "makes great progress" etc ?

I think this is mostly on 3 groups of people uber-fans of Medvedeva, people who hate Eteri so as soon as someone leaves Eteri that person becomes some kind of saint and people that love the "underdog" - when she was winning everything she got lots of criticism for everything under the sun (some of it warranted) but then when Zagitova came along there was a lot of people that had spent the previous 2 years criticizing Medvedeva were all of a sudden defending her or were silent on their usual criticisms.

 

[eterislouisvuitton]

I think we have to remember there is Alysa Liu and Rika Khira. If Rika keeps developing and doesn't have any body changes she will have the tech and mature artistry to wiThe n OGM The Eteri lady to challenge most likely is about 13 or 14 right now. which means the 4 A's might age out as to their prime. Sad but 17 is quite old it seems in russia to win gold. Deep down we want and hope one of the senior Russian ladies does it - Liza, Evgenia or Alina. At least in the US they will have Alyssa borne in this century, and then Bradie, Gracie, Mariah or Mira who were at least born last century.

Sad truth, I broke down when I realized this watching Sasha Trusova at nationals. She's my favorite and I just don't wanna think about it but it's sad. It's incredible the amount of amazing girls they have, and tragic all at the same time.

A genuine question not related to any recent statement here but rather sth I get from reading through this platform: Why do some posters insist that Medvedeva has improved since leaving Eteri?
She has reworked her 2A and when she lands it, it is improved indeed (not when she falls tho) and had tried to improve the flutz but other than that there is only regression...?
She is slower, her spins have gotten worse, sometimes she doesn't get the levels anymore, programs have been simplified, less transitions, she is very inconsistent.
The interpretation part is subjective. I do think it has improved cause she has finally stopped the miming, but the miming had nothing to do with her old coaches cause she was the only one in that group doing that do the extent that it was at.
So while there may be one or two things that have improved, overall she has clearly regressed to the point of not even making the GPF.

Now I'm not saying this regression is to blame on Orser or that it would never have happened had she stayed with Eteri. It would probably have happened under any circumstance cause her technique cannot sustain her new body, injuries etc. And maybe Eteri did recommend her to retire. But not cause she was done with her, but rather cause she could see in which direction it was going?
It's not her fault, neither her new coach's. But I do wonder why people keep pushing the narrative that she "has improved so much" and "makes great progress" etc ?

PErsonally, I fully believe that had Zhenya stayed with Eteri, she would be fully retired by now and her last season would've been quite the implosion.