Should ISU take a stance on Yagudin's insults against other athletes?

[Baron Vladimir]

Well.. I would trust both Yagudin and Pelletier to know more about skating than me as they are both skaters. I think it is the job of commentators to be informed about the current state of skating and the current rules. I think both Yagudin and Pelletier have the right to their opinions (and it's funny because both favour jumps over other elements) on the content of programs and Yagudin's criticism of Brown (for example) not having quads is valid. However it is also valid to point out that some skaters are better spinners and do better footwork and that too impacts the scoring.
I think there is a place for giving opinions and a place for educating and giving facts about why some skaters might score better than others. Tell us why skater A's spins are better than skater B's and why they deserve to be a level 3 and not a 4 and why they deserve a 0 GOE or a 5 GOE. I think a lot of fans are uninformed because a lot of commentators do not do a good job of informing us.

Well, why would people believe in some other opinion, if the opinion of ISU is very well published, as opinion of the ISU representatives - judges is also well published. I can't say that point of the media is to necesseraly give you a correct information. Media is there to give you their own take on some information, and its on you how you will filter it through your own cognitive system. You can except from people currently involved in the sport to give you more current and correct information. Just for being an olympic champion in 6.0 era doesn't make you current and correct in my opinion.

 

[ancientpeas]

There are only two emotions: Love and Fear. Every day you decide which one is going to rule how you live, how you treat people, how you spend your money and how plan your future.

We live in fear. Fear of others, fear of difference, fear of choice, fear of anything that does not conform to our version of how the world should be.

What would the world be like if we choose to live in love?

 

[Skatesocs]

I think I would turn that around. It is precisely the goal of organized religions to make everyone think and act the same way, and to punish those who don't in the name of the gods.

Before someone @s you for this, I'd add there are *some* aspects of theology that have been used for the good in society, government, and politics. And some useful morality does spring from age old religion. But this aspect that you pointed out is what gives rise to what we see.

 

[TontoK]

I think that being a public person Alexei has to be very careful regarding what he says. Some of his remarks are unacceptable for a public person.

At the same, it is hard for me to accept that values and attitudes are universal. This will never happen as long as religion plays role in human lives. Islam. Shall I go further?

There was a huge outcry against Sochi with LGBT topic picked as the main trump. At the same time, it went virtually unnoticed by general western public that in India there was a Supreme court ruling making homosexual relations illegal. It happenned in 1.5 billion people India the same 2014.

I am sad that Russia is continuously cherry-picked here for having different set of values. These values are not built in stone - they migrate and develop. But yes, they are still different from Western values in some substantial aspects. Religion plays role, history plays role, mentality plays role, etc. It is too primitive to boil it down to us Russians being "brain-washed" and living "under repressive regime".

I don't share everything which is the current norm in the West. I am tired of necessary political correctness in mainstream Hollywood movies. But I accept that it is a free choice of people living there and I should not question it. Moreover, I don't feel that I have the right to stick labels.

Anyway, a toxic thread - too much politics. It would be good if it were closed.

These types of situations are difficult - not just for sport, but in many endeavors. We want our sport to have global outreach and appeal. At the same time, the entire world does not share the same set of values. What is the mission of the ISU? To promote skating globally? To police individuals? What Yagudin has said is objectionable to my mind, but it's not illegal. It is not a crime to hurt someone's feelings.

Whatever you believe, I guarantee there is someone else in the world who believes the exact opposite. Each of you will believe you are a "good" person and the other is "wrong." And in the context of your respective societies, upbringings, and cultural norms, you're both justified in feeling that way. You may want to shut that person down, censor his speech, limit his job, etc. But what if the other person wants to do the same to you? Is it fair? You may think that your beliefs are superior... but so does the other guy who wants to throw you off the top of a building.

As I said, these are difficult issues. There aren't easy answers. For me, the worst thing to do is to cut off dialog. When people aren't communicating, there is no respectful exchange of ideas, no opportunity for learning, no chance at reconciliation, nothing but hostile parties becoming more entrenched in their positions and harboring resentment.

So long as the thread remains respectful and doesn't break the house rules, I say let it go on.

 

[TontoK]

I think I would turn that around. It is precisely the goal of organized religions to make everyone think and act the same way, and to punish those who don't in the name of the gods.

Counterpoint.

I grew up in the Deep South at a time when blatant racial discrimination was widespread. You know what changed hearts and minds?

It wasn't harassing advertisements. Not morally superior actors and actresses. Not threats of economic boycott.

People's hearts changed when pastors stood in their churches and said, "This is a sin. All men are God's children. Start treating them as brothers."

 

[ancientpeas]

These types of situations are difficult - not just for sport, but in many endeavors. We want our sport to have global outreach and appeal. At the same time, the entire world does not share the same set of values. What is the mission of the ISU? To promote skating globally? To police individuals? What Yagudin has said is objectionable to my mind, but it's not illegal. It is not a crime to hurt someone's feelings.

Whatever you believe, I guarantee there is someone else in the world who believes the exact opposite. Each of you will believe you are a "good" person and the other is "wrong." And in the context of your respective societies, upbringings, and cultural norms, you're both justified in feeling that way. You may want to shut that person down, censor his speech, limit his job, etc. But what if the other person wants to do the same to you? Is it fair? You may think that your beliefs are superior... but so does the other guy who wants to throw you off the top of a building.

As I said, these are difficult issues. There aren't easy answers. For me, the worst thing to do is to cut off dialog. When people aren't communicating, there is no respectful exchange of ideas, no opportunity for learning, no chance at reconciliation, nothing but hostile parties becoming more entrenched in their positions and harboring resentment.

So long as the thread remains respectful and doesn't break the house rules, I say let it go on.

Translation: "F*cik, Adam. When all of you will die? Earth’s mistake ."

that is what he said that I think warrants a greater response. His comments about Jason are just..insulting and rude and reflect poorly on him. His comments about Adam step way over the line.

 

[Skatesocs]

Counterpoint.

I grew up in the Deep South at a time when blatant racial discrimination was widespread. You know what changed hearts and minds?

It wasn't harassing advertisements. Not morally superior actors and actresses. Not threats of economic boycott.

People's hearts changed when pastors stood in their churches and said, "This is a sin. All men are God's children. Start treating them as brothers."

But Mathman isn't talking about, say, Christians who abide by Christianity. That does unite Christians. He is talking more about what used to happen before that, or what happens to "sinners" (like gay men) even now - who don't abide by Christianity. It's why I asked him to amend his statement by adding there have been some good aspects to religion, but the rest gives rise to the tribalism we see. It's also somewhat silly to compare reformed religion to orthodoxy.

 

[TontoK]

Translation: "F*cik, Adam. When all of you will die? Earth’s mistake ."

that is what he said that I think warrants a greater response. His comments about Jason are just..insulting and rude and reflect poorly on him. His comments about Adam step way over the line.

True. I've said I find his remarks objectionable. But, again, they're not illegal.

If he's run off the air in a country that loves him and for the most part is in sync with his views, what is the outcome? People who agree with us pat each other on the back and congratulate ourselves on a job well done. And the people who agree with him become outraged and even more entrenched in their positions.

Whats the impact to gay people in Russia in that case? Are they helped or hurt? I don't know. I truly believe there is no lasting meaningful change without dialog, and I also believe that people don't like being dictated to by outsiders. The choice - stick his head on a pike or promote real change?

 

[peepsquick]

That is what is so hard to understand. Why does Yagudin -- or anyone -- feel that gay people are a threat?

They are a threat to their world view. It is hard for many people to question or even consider questioning the values they were raised on. It is upsetting because they have to re-think what they took for granted. It is a process and you have to be willing to open your mind ...

 

[Pantsu]

Response from Rippon
https://www.instagram.com/p/CBOYvhEMV0-/

 

[Skatesocs]

Response from Rippon
https://www.instagram.com/p/CBOYvhEMV0-/

perfect!

 

[Mathman]

People's hearts changed when pastors stood in their churches and said, "This is a sin. All men are God's children. Start treating them as brothers."

True, but there must be something more to be said. After all, the pastors could have stood up in their churches and preached brotherly love a hundred years before. But instead, they were more likely to be leading the lynch mob -- and denouncing from the pulpit the curse of Cain that the Lord placed on black people..

Something changed, but what? Even the Mormons decreed in 1978 (but not before) that the black race had now served out its curse and was forgiven by God. (Something changed. But what? Did God change his mind after all those thousands of years? Did the U.S. Army contract with U&I Sugar have anything to do with God's change of heart?)

 

[macy]

Response from Rippon
https://www.instagram.com/p/CBOYvhEMV0-/

OMG THE END I AM ROOOOLLLLIIIINNGGGGGGGGG

spoken like a true queen!

 

[Skatesocs]

True, but there must be something more to be said. After all, the pastors could have stood up in their churches and preached brotherly love a hundred years before. But instead, they were more likely to be leading the lynch mob -- and denouncing from the pulpit the curse of Cain that the Lord placed on black people..

Something changed, but what? Even the Mormons decreed in 1978 (but not before) that the black race had now served out its curse and was forgiven by God. (Something changed. But what? Did God change his mind after all those thousands of years? Did the U.S. Army contract with U&I Sugar have anything to do with God's change of heart?)

That is a very informative post. Thank you!

 

[skylark]

Ashley Wagner made repeatedly rude remarks about Jin Boyang during the past few seasons, and also about Alina Zagitova during the Olympics,

I haven't heard anything Ashley said about Boyang Jin, so I won't comment on that.

What Ashley said about Alina Zagitova was that (implied: her opinion) Alina's SP was "not a program." What she meant was that it wasn't a balanced program, but unfortunately she didn't give that clarity in the moment. She did try to clarify in the storm that followed, but unfortunately the Alina-stormers wouldn't hear it.

But to compare Ashley's comments about Alina's program (it wasn't even about her skating) to Alexei Yagudin's vile statements, especially the one where he wished that Adam Rippon (and "all of you") would die, is way out of line and baffling to me.

 

[el henry]

whole post

Sorry, my friend, I think this take is incorrect.

The choice is never, ever, to normalize homophobia. Or transphobia. Or racism. Or to let a "name" in skating pretend that what he said was normal, acceptable or excusable.

And if that means calling out Alexei Yagudin for his childish and insulting ways, acting like a five year old, then that's what happens.

"Real change" isn't relevant here in this thread, as we are trying to avoid politics. We are talking Adam Rippon and what Alexei said about him.

Which is completely inexcusable.

 

[Skatesocs]

I haven't heard anything Ashley said about Boyang Jin, so I won't comment on that.

What Ashley said about Alina Zagitova was that (implied: her opinion) Alina's SP was "not a program." What she meant was that it wasn't a balanced program, but unfortunately she didn't give that clarity in the moment. She did try to clarify in the storm that followed, but the Alina-stormers wouldn't hear it.

But to compare Ashley's comments about Alina's program (it wasn't even about her skating) to Alexei Yagudin's vile statements, especially the one where he wished that Adam Rippon (and "all of you") would die, is way out of line and baffling to me.

It's great that you ignore some of her rudeness. I'm sure if you follow her on Twitter as you apparently do -or seeing how you made sure to be the only one thus far to take issue with this, her commentary- you would know anyway. So already, I don't believe you, and have little charity towards this post. But I am sure a simple GS search won't prove your words wrong here (I made sure to do one).

If you'd read my post properly -or at all- you'd know what I was saying - that her comments on them are the same as Yagudin's comments about quads. It's right there in the sentence that you mysteriously left out of your quote before you posted your outrage. Yet again something that everyone else grasped. As if I don't know where each comment stands and you're some arbiter of that. If you believe that she shouldn't be talked about in a thread where we were discussing Yagudin's comments as a whole, not my issue; absolutely I think her commentary has been just as awful as his, and the people you dismissed have taken issue with it, no matter how you try to paint it - not that your misquotation of my words make me believe you there either. Further, it lies on you that you decided to misread and drag it into this thread, so I'm not entertaining this further. The point of this thread is entirely different. If you feel the need to defend her, you can open up a different thread, that I'll make sure to not participate in because I have no interest in it. Much like I have no interest in people defending Yagudin.

I do not care if an Ashley Wagner fan believes I should view Ashley Wagner in the way of Ashley Wagner fans. Her words are there for everyone to judge for themselves. If you don't like that someone doesn't like her for them, it's not my problem. If you can't set your fandom for her aside and decide to misquote and misinterpret to say she's oh-so-misunderstood and it's oh-so-sad that people won't let her live in peace and oh if people would just think exactly like you they can all see she's amazing, or that OBVIOUSLY someone didn't follow what was happening and hence dislike her so here's "reality", or that everyone else is just too stupid to understand her and so dislike her and therefore you need to make sure everyone understands what she "really" said so they start liking her, or that the *only* reason someone can dislike her is because they're bad people and they don't think properly and have their priorities wrong, much like you tried to make it seem like with me by quoting me in a manner to say that I was equating Yagudin's call to kill gay people with Wagner's nonsense, or whatever else, not my issue. I've had enough of that when it specifically comes to Wagner and her fans.

In fact, set me on ignore. I'll be critical of her as I see fit, and your misquotation of my words is only going to make it worse. If you like her and think she's nice, sad for you, not my problem that love is blind and deaf. And make no mistake, if you quote me again and try to dismiss what she's said like you did with Jin, or try to tell me your interpretation of her words is better than mine like you did with Zagitova (when you couldn't even be bothered to read mine properly ), I will make sure you know what I think, starting with the word "irony". For example, "ironically, this is your only contribution to this thread, and it claims I was out of line because you went to "defend" a favourite rather than adding anything useful". Feel free to twist whichever other words of mine you want, I can't care less.

 

[TontoK]

True, but there must be something more to be said. After all, the pastors could have stood up in their churches and preached brotherly love a hundred years before. But instead, they were more likely to be leading the lynch mob -- and denouncing from the pulpit the curse of Cain that the Lord placed on black people..

Something changed, but what? Even the Mormons decreed in 1978 (but not before) that the black race had now served out its curse and was forgiven by God. (Something changed. But what? Did God change his mind after all those thousands of years? Did the U.S. Army contract with U&I Sugar have anything to do with God's change of heart?)

I assure you the little country church my family attended did not have a government contract. I agree that the change in hearts came late, but it DID come. And it came as a result of dialogue and persuasion. If threats, boycotts, public shaming were effective in REALLY changing hearts, it would have happened earlier than it did.

 

[Mathman]

When people aren't communicating, there is no respectful exchange of ideas, no opportunity for learning, no chance at reconciliation, nothing but hostile parties becoming more entrenched in their positions and harboring resentment.

I agree in principle. But I do not think that this thread has had any "useful exchange of ideas," I don't think anyone has taken advantage of a chance to learn anything or to reconcile with anyone. I believe that you have encapsulated this thread with these words: "nothing but hostile parties becoming more entrenched in their positions and harboring resentment."

We'll see how it goes forward.

(I will do my part. Here is a church story that has become part of our cherished family lore. The preacher at my parents' church, when they decided to get married, was an old time fire-and-brimstone sort. There were two big banners stretched across the sanctuary. One said REPENT and the other said THE WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH. My grandfather (my mother's father) asked the preacher if they could take the signs down for the wedding, so they wouldn't dominate all the wedding pictures.

After some grumbling, the pastor agreed, on the condition that my grandfather would take the signs down himself and put them back up after the ceremony. And so it happened.

But following the ceremony, with the newlyweds were off on their honeymoon, granddad was trying to put the banners back up when he fell off the ladder, tumbled out the church window, and broke his leg. The preacher told him that was God's punishment for taking the banners down in th first place. Granddad never knew whether the preacher was joking or not. )

 

[TontoK]

Sorry, my friend, I think this take is incorrect.

The choice is never, ever, to normalize homophobia. Or transphobia. Or racism. Or to let a "name" in skating pretend that what he said was normal, acceptable or excusable.

And if that means calling out Alexei Yagudin for his childish and insulting ways, acting like a five year old, then that's what happens.

"Real change" isn't relevant here in this thread, as we are trying to avoid politics. We are talking Adam Rippon and what Alexei said about him.

Which is completely inexcusable.

Calling him out is not the same thing as shutting him down because we disagree.

Adam's response, recently added to this thread, is worth FAR more than working to get Alexei Yagudin fired.

When people communicate, even when they don't agree, outcomes are better. Now Yagudin and his supporters have to process Adam's rebuttal, and I hope they do.