Alexei YAGUDIN: “I’M COMING BACK”

[antmanb]

Also just chipping in to say that if a skater had everything on your list Slutskayafan then that woul dbe the perfect program....and i don't think anyone has ever done that, even the likes of Plushenko and Yagudin fall down on the basis of pretty average spins. So in order to win i don't a skater needs all of the things. They should strive for it but they don't need it. I thin a quad, consistency and mental toughness would usually do it quite well for the men!

Ant

 

[slutskayafan21]

Well the majority of things in your list come out of the PCS and Lysacek has done ok in that area. Looking at worlds Lambiel, Takahashi and Joubert were some 4-6 points ahead on PCS but he was in the same ball park as the rest on your list (bar pluschenko who obviously wasn't there).

So basically you are showing the only 3 of the top guys who skated fairly well beat him handily in the areas I refered to; and the top guys who didnt skate well at all like Buttle, Oda, Weir he was only then in "the same ball park" as. Pretty much what I said, he relies on others screwing up for any of his success.

 

[slutskayafan21]

Also just chipping in to say that if a skater had everything on your list Slutskayafan then that woul dbe the perfect program....and i don't think anyone has ever done that, even the likes of Plushenko and Yagudin fall down on the basis of pretty average spins. So in order to win i don't a skater needs all of the things.

They dont need all of those things, but you need some of them, unless you are hoping to skate very well, and the rest to fall on their behinds to win your medals which is the Lysacek method. Even Plushenko does not quite have them all as you said, but he has great jumps, great footwork, great presence and power. Lambiel has great spins, great footwork, great style and musicality. Joubert has great jumps, great basic skating, great command. Lysacek has none of them to a signifcant extent. He does not have great jumps, or great spins, or great footwork, or great programs, or great style, or great basic skating. He is pretty average in everyway except for his mental toughness and consistency. Doing a quad is not a remarkable trait in todays field, many guys do quads.

 

[Mathman]

Are you talking about Lysacek? He's the fifth best skater in the world! How is that "average?" (unless you mean, average among the top ten).

 

[slutskayafan21]

Are you talking about Lysacek? He's the fifth best skater in the world! How is that "average?" (unless you mean, average among the top ten).

He is ranked 5th in the World because of his incredible consistency and mental toughness. Remember I said he was pretty average outside of those traits. Also because he has shown such consistency and mental toughness, he has earnt the judges respect and is vastly overmarked relative to the ordinary quality of his skating in pretty much everyway, but in a way he has earned that since he has in his own way earned the judges respect level. He makes very few mistakes in competition, he is very determined, he makes the most of his limited talents and skills, judges respect his determination and reliablity so also give him inflated scores, and others fall on their behinds, so all together allowing him to finish over multiple guys with more overall skating and physical ability then he has.

Also I was talking about the top group of skaters mostly, so even by your point, my comments would make sense since 5th ranked is about in the middle of that top group of 9 I am talking about anyway.

 

[hockeyfan228]

Lysacek's consistent, but for a while, he was consistently bad at SP's, and not always because he'd had an IV drip earlier in the day. (He was pretty lucky to be in contention at all after his Olympic SP.) His mental toughness showed by not giving up for the long.

 

[slutskayafan21]

Lysacek's consistent, but for a while, he was consistently bad at SP's, and not always because he'd had an IV drip earlier in the day. (He was pretty lucky to be in contention at all after his Olympic SP.) His mental toughness showed by not giving up for the long.

You are right about the short programs, but I dont expect that to last forever.

However I dont think I would even say he was in contention after the Olympic SP. He does not have the ability in his skating to make up that kind of ground to medal, even if other skate bad and he skates brilliant, and that was proven as Lambiel and Buttle with 3 major mistakes each still stayed ahead of his flawless come-from-behind effort by a very comfortable margin, and in fact the 3 still finished in a near dead heat in the free skate itself (Buttle actually ahead).

You are right he showed his great mental strength, and his character. I do respect that about him, how can anyone not.

 

[jennylovskt]

I am eager to see how Lysacek is doing without Carmen.

One interesting thing was that during Yagudin days, Yagudin seemed wild, hot tempered, and unpredictable, while Plushenko was nice, level headed, and humanized. Now Yagudin is still hot tempered, unpredictable, but more mature, and calm, while Plushenko is eccentric, confident, and self-centered. Have they changed or we just don't know them well?

Look at how many replies in a few days in this thread, and how many people viewed it. Figure skating is lacking of super stars right now. That is why that people could not forget and keep bringing back about the past, like Yagudin, Kwan, Cohen ...

 

[Vitacus]

You know, there is brilliance in your humor. And that would make a GREAT cartoon.

Why thank you, how very nice of you to say so! And I must (most) humbly agree - not only with the part about my brilliant humor but also that it would make a great cartoon.

 

[antmanb]

So basically you are showing the only 3 of the top guys who skated fairly well beat him handily in the areas I refered to; and the top guys who didnt skate well at all like Buttle, Oda, Weir he was only then in "the same ball park" as. Pretty much what I said, he relies on others screwing up for any of his success.

If he can rely on others to "screw up" to beat them then what does it matter? When have Buttle, Oda and Weir ever skated without "screwing up"??

Ant

 

[antmanb]

They dont need all of those things, but you need some of them, unless you are hoping to skate very well, and the rest to fall on their behinds to win your medals which is the Lysacek method. Even Plushenko does not quite have them all as you said, but he has great jumps, great footwork, great presence and power. Lambiel has great spins, great footwork, great style and musicality. Joubert has great jumps, great basic skating, great command. Lysacek has none of them to a signifcant extent. He does not have great jumps, or great spins, or great footwork, or great programs, or great style, or great basic skating. He is pretty average in everyway except for his mental toughness and consistency. Doing a quad is not a remarkable trait in todays field, many guys do quads.

And yet behold he has still won medals....so mental toughness, consistency and quad apparently work quite well for winning medals.

Ant

 

[slutskayafan21]

And yet behold he has still won medals....so mental toughness, consistency and quad apparently work quite well for winning medals.

Ant

Sometimes it can, that is if the much better skaters all fall on their butts. Anyway Evan won his first World medal in 2005 without a quad, in the train wreck of the 2005 Worlds, where Lambiel won by a whooping 16 points by singling 3 different planned triples in his free skate, meaning he could have taken out all his quads, still made all those mistakes, and still won over quadless/2 fall Buttle, the silver medalist. The field has improved enough since 2005 and 2006, that even if what would be termed a very poorly skated event took place again, it would still not reach the depths of despair of the 2005 and even 2006 Worlds.

 

[slutskayafan21]

If he can rely on others to "screw up" to beat them then what does it matter? When have Buttle, Oda and Weir ever skated without "screwing up"??

My initital statement was merely that he is an average skater aside from having great mental toughness and consistency. You havent exactly disproven that in anyway yet. So you say what does that matter if he can beat others that way? Nothing really, except it only comes full circle to what my initial statement was in the first place.

I cant help it if you are perhaps a very sensitive Lysacek fanboy and find such truthful statements offensive. Take it as a compliment, I gave your boy kudos for what he excels in most, being extremely consistent, being a great fighter, overachieving, etc....

As to answer your question, when Oda has skated with fewer errors like NHK last year, Skate America this year he had no problem beating Evan. NHK last year Evan skated 2 clean programs, quadless then mind you, Oda also quadless had a clean short and a fall in the free skate. Oda won the short over Evan by several points, virtually tied him in the free skate even with that fall, and won overall by those several points. That was also when Oda's style was underdeveloped compared to now. At Skate America this year Oda skated perfect short, and Oda's point loss on that downgraded/flawed second triple axel are atleast equal to Evan's point loss for his 2 mistakes in the short program, the overall point spread ended up being about 10 points combined, with Oda nearly tieing Evan in the free skate even with all the points lost on that 2nd triple axel. So obviously Oda has made few enough mistakes to prove his superiority in pure ability, and beat Evan before, it is a matter of whether he does it on the night or not. Given his flawless jumping technique you should expect a quad in his arsenal soon enough too. Buttle? Well he is probably done as a top contender, so I wont argue him anymore,
but he already has 2 things Evan might never have, a World silver, and an Olympic medal. Weir? He may never end up winning a World medal, but he is still raved worldwide for his style and flair, while Evan is not noted globally for any aspect of his skating.

Anyway Joubert, Takahashi, Lambiel, Plushenko (if he returns), and possibly Verner, are the main ones to probably beat for medals in the coming years anyway; not so much Oda, Buttle, or Weir.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

There is no way Oda, Buttle, Weir will get a medal at Worlds without the help from at least two major Quadders: Joubert, Takahashi, Lambiel, and that would also mean that Verner was a fluke in Tokyo.

Also Lysacek will have to prove he is a member of the Quad Club in good standing.

Two skaters to watch closely: Plushenko and Li.

The Quad has now become a standard jump and one must have it to win. It's not to my liking but it's the way it is. I have a gut feeling the top three will have two different quads in addition to one in combo. That may be the possibility of one of the top three to falter and change the podium look from what is obvious to me.

Joe

 

[Tonichelle]

hasn't teh argument been going on since before 2000 that the quad was the deciding factor? and yet there are still those that win without one...

just a thought... I just remember reading this same argument every year since I've been online (1997)...

 

[antmanb]

My initital statement was merely that he is an average skater aside from having great mental toughness and consistency. You havent exactly disproven that in anyway yet. So you say what does that matter if he can beat others that way? Nothing really, except it only comes full circle to what my initial statement was in the first place.

I was never trying to disprove your statement that he is an avergae skater - i agree with you whole heartedly - i don't tend to watch Lysacek's performances becuase i don't enjoy them at all. The only thing i was trying to disprove was your statement that it wasnt enough to have mental toughness, consistency and a quad. The proof - he's won medals by having those attributes over skaters who are more naturally talented. Joubert wins or medals close to gold when he has the mental tougness consitency and quad, when he doesn't he drops out of the top 5. Often those attributes are all a skater needs the podiumd are proof of it.

Ant

 

[antmanb]

I cant help it if you are perhaps a very sensitive Lysacek fanboy and find such truthful statements offensive. Take it as a compliment, I gave your boy kudos for what he excels in most, being extremely consistent, being a great fighter, overachieving, etc....

I couldn't be less of a fan - i have never enjoyed his skating. It's just some of your arguments I didn't think stood up to scrutiny. I explained what i disagreed with in another post.

The reason i think the men's competition is so intersting at the moment is becuase there are many competitors with and without the talent who are all vying for the podium. Why? Becuase none of them are truly consistent like Yags or Plush were back in the day. The podiums are largely up for grabs by all becuase of this lack of consistency, so again i would re-iterate, that someone who demonsatrates consistency has to be doing well and be more likely to reach the podium than others who aren't.

Of cours if plush and Yags do come back they could lal be skating for bronze anyway

Ant

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

hasn't teh argument been going on since before 2000 that the quad was the deciding factor? and yet there are still those that win without one...

just a thought... I just remember reading this same argument every year since I've been online (1997)...

Toni, you are so astute to find one post that is repetitive. Are you saying there has been no winner with quad since 2000?

If my feeble mind is working, I can think of winners with quads to be Kulic, Stoiko, Plushenko, Yagudin, Lambiel, Lysecek, Takahashi, Verner. Of course, there was Browning prior to 2000 but he did Win!

Now who were the winners since 2000 without one?

Joe

 

[twstr]

Alexei Yagudin..."I'm Coming Back"...

Greetings:
I've been a long-time fan of Alexei Yagudin. I can truly empathize with his hip replacement as I've gone through the same thing almost a year ago.I too have the titanium replacements. My concern for Alexei revolves around the fact that my doctor told me that my replacement would last about eight or ten years, whereupon I would need a new one. There is no doubt that Alexei has the talent...but will his body hold up under all of the punishment that a competing figure skater has to endure?
I hope that Alexei gives this some serious thought before he goes through this grueling punishment of practice, especially in his jumps.
My prayers are with this courageous (albeit foolish) young man.
God bless...

Mary M.
twstr

 

[Mathman]

Hi, Twstr, thanks for joining us and welcome to Golden Skate. Post often, post long! :agree: