Alexei YAGUDIN: “I’M COMING BACK”

[Dee4707]

Greetings:
I've been a long-time fan of Alexei Yagudin. I can truly empathize with his hip replacement as I've gone through the same thing almost a year ago.I too have the titanium replacements. My concern for Alexei revolves around the fact that my doctor told me that my replacement would last about eight or ten years, whereupon I would need a new one. There is no doubt that Alexei has the talent...but will his body hold up under all of the punishment that a competing figure skater has to endure?
I hope that Alexei gives this some serious thought before he goes through this grueling punishment of practice, especially in his jumps.
My prayers are with this courageous (albeit foolish) young man.
God bless...

Mary M.
twstr

Great post and information. Welcome!!! This has been my main concern for him. When you say that you have to have a replacement in 8-10 years is that because of normal wear and tear or for other reasons??? I'm very curious.

Dee

 

[Dodhiyel]

Thanks for the insight, Mary (twstr); much appreciated.

Joe, I am so glad you are no longer in pain.

I have read that joint replacements can be replaced again, so I am determinedly optimistic. I also read a piece, a while back, by someone who had knee replacements, and that person was so happy with them; they were doing all their old outdoor activities. I realize that the jumps in male single skating, are far more stressful on the joints than are many other outdoor activities, so joint replacement is a subject that I think has to be close to the heart for any figure skating fan, and even closer for any figure skater who has to do jumps. The medical technology seems to keep on improving, so new information is always more than welcome to me.

 

[hockeyfan228]

If my feeble mind is working, I can think of winners with quads to be Kulic, Stoiko, Plushenko, Yagudin, Lambiel, Lysecek, Takahashi, Verner. Of course, there was Browning prior to 2000 but he did Win!

The morals of this story are:
a. If you're going to fall on the quad, the rest of your program better be up to snuff: high levels, positive GOE, and great PCS. In short, a great all-around skater. It seems this happened once in a major championship -- Buttle's bronze at Turin.

b. If you've got quads in your program, you can't underrotate them, and you better not make a mess of the rest of your jumps.

c. Even with a quad, you better be in the running for top PCS. At Turin, not only did Chengjiang Li land a 4T+3T, he got the higher GOE than Plushenko, who did 4T+3T+2Lo, as did Lambiel, who go the same GOE as Li.

2005 Worlds was an anomaly with Plushenko's withdrawal, and Joubert's meltdown in the LP.

To take a look at the 2006-7 season, the only skaters to win a GP, Euro, or World title without needing a quad were

1. Brian Joubert, who landed quads at TEB, CoR, and GPF, but was so far ahead of the field (Preaubert at TEB, Weir at CoR, and Takahashi at GPF) that he didn't need them all to win, perhaps because of the quads he landed in the SP's

2. Evan Lysacek, at CoC, in a weak field. Second-place Davydov didn't have one either.

3. Oda, in a middling field at Skate America

Lambiel, after a disastrous SP at Skate Canada, needed his quad in the LP to beat a quadless Takahashi for gold. Takahashi needed his at NHK to beat a quadless Oda.

Sandhu needed the quad to eek out the bronze over Scott Smith by a little over a point at CoC, and Klimkin needed a quad at CoR to beat out Verner for the bronze.

2007 World Championships (including number of quads in the LP):
Joubert -1
Takahashi-1
Lambiel-2
Verner-2
Lysacek-1
Sixth-place Buttle underrotated his. The only other skaters to attempt a quad were Preaubert (11), Sandhu (16), and Lutai (18).

2007 European Championships:
Joubert-Y
Verner-Y
Van der Perren-Y
Davydov-N, which lost him a bronze medal in a squeaker, less than a point
Lutai-Y
Preaubert-Y.

The only other skaters to attempt a quad were Ponsero (13), and Griazev, whose attempt was downgraded.

2006 Olympic Games, where half of the men attempted at least one quad:
Plushenko-Y
Lambiel-Y
Buttle-Y, but fell
Lysacek-N
Weir-N
Joubert-Y, but four major jump mistakes

In addition, Van der Perren, Klimkin, Zhang, Li, Sandhu, Verner, Dambier, and Lindemann got credit for at least rotating the quad, but had problems and lower levels in their programs.

2006 Worlds:
Lambiel-2
Joubert-2
Lysacek-1
Oda-N
Sandhu-1 (4th in the LP, making top four with quads)
Buttle-N

In addition to these skaters, Weir landed a flawed quad (got 7 points for it), but had two other major jump failures and two L-1 spins, Klimkin had a good 4T sequence, but generally lower levels and content, Min Zhang had two quads, but errors and low rest of program content, Verner had an up-and-down program, Chengjiang Li had a mess of a program, and Dinev landed one rock) but had only a couple of +GOE elements and only okay PCS.

2006 Europeans
Plushenko-1
Lambiel-2
Joubert-1
Dambier-1
Klimkin-1
Preaubert-N

In addition to these skaters, Van der Perren (7th) had a quad, but other jumping errors, Verner (14) had a fall on his and two other jumps.

2005 Worlds
Lambiel-2
Buttle-N
Lysacek-N
Weir-N
Li-Y
Joubert-Y

Sandhu, 3rd in the LP, had one, but he was too far behind after the SP. Without it, he barely would have made top 10. Li would never have been in 7th after the LP and 5th for the competition without his two quads: his levels were 1 and 2, and he had three jumping errors and a 1A. Joubert fell on his quad, and was a mess for the rest of his program. (He would have been lower than 13th had he not had great PCS.) He would not have been seeded had he not landed a quad combo in the SP.

Plushenko fell on his quad combo in the SP, before he had to withdraw. A slighly healther Plushenko would likely have made the podium with at least one quad.

Below them, Dambier couldn't make up low levels and a doubled loop with one quad, nor could Lindemann, even with a +1.14 GOE on his opening 4T+3T, but also a fall, low spins levels, and a 1A. Goebel couldn't either, with two falls, one on the quad. Min Zhang had two quad/double combinations, to no avail, with all L1's and a 1A. Pretty much all Griazev had was a quad (another 1.14 GOE).

2005 Euros:
Plushenko-Y
Joubert-Y
Lindemann-Y
Lambiel-Y
Griazev-Y, and despite low levels and a 1F ended in 5th in the LP and competition.
Van der Perren-N

Dambier, 4th in the LP after the podium finishers, had one.

Lezin had one, but all L1's, lots of other problems, and 5's in PCS.

There were no protocols for Euros, Worlds, and Olympics before 2005. From what I remember:

2004 Worlds:
Plushenko-Y
Joubert-Y
Lindemann-Y
Lambiel-Y
Weir-N
Weiss-I think a double-foot

IIRC, Sandhu, after blowing the SP, Li, and Zhang at least had attempts.

2004 Euros
Joubert-Y
Plushenko-Y
Klimkin-IIRC, an attempt at least, plus the 4T in the SP in Swan Lake
Dambier-4S
Lindemann-can't remember, but he was doing the attempt regularly then
Lambiel-same as Lindemann


2003 Worlds
Plushenko-Y
Goebel-Y
Honda-Y
Li-Y
Weiss-two-footed attempt, I think
Joubert-probably

I'm fairly certain Griazev tried. I don't remember about Vlascenko, but I think that was the year he did a Bobrin program to "Die Zirkusprinzessin" that I really loved. The other likely suspects were Zhang, Sandhu, Dinev, I think Jeannette. That was early Lambiel, and I can't remember if tried quads as early as that year.

2003 Europeans--the ISU link is broken and I couldn't find a results list (although I did find a newsletter which celebrated "1,500 happy new residents of Malmo!"
Plushenko-Y
Joubert-Y
Jeannette-I think so.

2002 Worlds:
Yagudin-Y
Goebel-Y
Honda-I think so
Abt-probably
Li-almost always
Weiss

Of the others, probably Zhang. Don't know who else.

2002 Europeans (another missing page)
Yagudin-Y
Abt-Y
Joubert-maybe. He was a baby then.

2002 Olympics:
Yagudin-Y
Plushenko-Y
Goebel-Y
Honda-probably
Abt-probably
Eldredge-N

Others who might have: Stojko, Li, Dinev, Zhang

2001 Worlds:
Plushenko-Y
Yagudin-Y
Eldredge-N
Goebel-he had at least a quad by then, no?
Honda-probably
Yunfei Li-I remember liking him, but I don't know if he had a quad.

2001 Europeans:
Plushenko-Y
Yagudin-Y
Jeannette-I think so
Abt-most likely
Davydov--I don't think so
Vlascenko-possibly

2000 Worlds
Yagudin-Y
Stojko-Y
Weiss--did he attempt?
Plushenko-Y
Li-Y
Abt-maybe

2000 Europeans-can't find any links.

Since Worlds 2000, there hasn't been a World, European, or Olympic Men's champion without the quad -- and at the Olympics, 1998 with Kulik and did Urmanov land one in 1994? -- only one silver medallist who likely would have won bronze had Plushenko not been injured (which may have psyched Brian Joubert off the podium), and a few bronze medallists. Under either system.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Hockeyfan - You put in a lot work with that post It seems though, the present status of Joubert,Takahashi, Lambiel are the Quad consistant players with many more points in the Technical as well.

All three will more than likely get high PCS. How likely will all three have a meltdown. That's usually reserved for only one unfortunate skater.

I'm not exactly predicting the 3 will be on the podium. I must wait to see Plushenko and a closer look at Verner. But even there I'm still saying Quad. I would not be surprised if they quad on to the podium. Both have good PCS.

The other players, must have a clean quad. As I said, I don't like saying that, but I do understand the thinking of judges and their protocols.

A close look at the GPs (and I hope we get to see all of them) will tell us if there are consistant quads with Lysacek, Buttle, Weir and Oda.

Joe

 

[skatergirlaj]

I have a hip problem and will be facing replacement in the future sometime as well...and someone who also has a hip problem told me that you can only get it replaced 2-3 times.Which is the reason the dr's prefer to put it off as long as they can,meaning they'd rather do surgery on a 40 yr old than a 26-27 yr old.Because if that's the case and technology doesn't get better over the next 20 yrs or so....then you get it replaced at 26,lets say it lasts 10 yrs...you have to get it done again in your 30's....then again in your 40's.... then after that,you are just in major trouble.(crossing fingers they come up with something better by then)So it's a risky thing to do.

 

[antmanb]

Hockeyfan - wow that must have taken some work!!

[edited because i realised that the list was a list of attempted rather than completed quads]

Ant

 

[hockeyfan228]

[edited because i realised that the list was a list of attempted rather than completed quads]

I put them in attempts because they yield points under CoP, and under 6.0 tended to get credit if underrotated. In CoP, the only attempt that doesn't count is a <4T or <4S.

 

[antmanb]

I put them in attempts because they yield points under CoP, and under 6.0 tended to get credit if underrotated. In CoP, the only attempt that doesn't count is a <4T or <4S.

Yes i noticed that, that's why i edited my post - originally i was going to say that i think Lindemann had a hand down and forward ladnign on his quad at 2004 worlds but in any event i think the judges gave him credit for it anyway since he walked away with the bronze over Lambiel.

Ant

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I put them in attempts because they yield points under CoP, and under 6.0 tended to get credit if underrotated. In CoP, the only attempt that doesn't count is a <4T or <4S.

i think the discussion was going for the question of whether a quad was necessary in present day competitions to be on the podium. It also aluded to skaters who made the podium without quads in the past.

Skatergirlaj - True they are limited. Even knees. I hope Insurance companies dont try to avoid paying, they are expensive surgeries. (oh, the Sicko of it all)

Joe

 

[skatergirlaj]

i think the discussion was going for the question of whether a quad was necessary in present day competitions to be on the podium. It also aluded to skaters who made the podium without quads in the past.

Skatergirlaj - True they are limited. Even knees. I hope Insurance companies dont try to avoid paying, they are expensive surgeries. (oh, the Sicko of it all)

Joe

I hope the insurance company doesn't try to avoid paying either!

As for the quad in competition,I wish it wasn't necessary,but it's starting to head that way,just like it was before the 6.0 system went out(i wish it wasn't necessary because of the physical trauma it puts on the skaters body).I do think however that a triple axel is neccessary ....I think it's pretty pathetic when a mens gold medalist in any competition at the senior level cannot do a clean triple axel.They shouldn't be just depending on what points they can get together artistically.Technical is just as important.

 

[antmanb]

I hope the insurance company doesn't try to avoid paying either!

As for the quad in competition,I wish it wasn't necessary,but it's starting to head that way,just like it was before the 6.0 system went out(i wish it wasn't necessary because of the physical trauma it puts on the skaters body).I do think however that a triple axel is neccessary ....I think it's pretty pathetic when a mens gold medalist in any competition at the senior level cannot do a clean triple axel.They shouldn't be just depending on what points they can get together artistically.Technical is just as important.

Now you see i find your post a little contradictory - you find the triple axel to be necessary but you wish the quad was not necessary?? I don't think that an extra half turn in the air causes the skaters body any more trauma than the pounding of learning and keeping a triple axel. Both jumps require about the same height and force to get up and then the same to land. I don't really see the huge distinction between a triple axel and quad.

Ant

 

[slutskayafan21]

-- and at the Olympics, 1998 with Kulik and did Urmanov land one in 1994? --

Kulik landed a quad cleanly at the 1998 Olympics in the long program, although with Stojko's injury likely would not have needed it. Urmanov did not attempt a quad in the long program at the 1994 Olympics.

2005 Worlds was an anomaly with Plushenko's withdrawal, and Joubert's meltdown in the LP.

Thank you. I have said that many times, you cannot look at the 2005 Worlds as a valid example. People forget that Worlds was the ultimate train wreck, and naively think because Buttle and even Lysacek won silver and bronze medals there without a quad it can be done. Lambiel at those Worlds popped 3 of his most important triples to singles or doubles in the free skate, and still won the free skate by about 8 points, and after nearly clean qualifying and shorts, the overall Championship by about 16, even with these major problems in the final free. Buttle won silver without attemping a quad in any program, and falling twice in his final free skate to boot. Lysacek won bronze without a quad attempt, with two popped jumps in the free skate, and with no truly special qualities at all.

 

[skatergirlaj]

Now you see i find your post a little contradictory - you find the triple axel to be necessary but you wish the quad was not necessary?? I don't think that an extra half turn in the air causes the skaters body any more trauma than the pounding of learning and keeping a triple axel. Both jumps require about the same height and force to get up and then the same to land. I don't really see the huge distinction between a triple axel and quad.

Ant

Don't know you very well,so I have to ask...are you a skater?

 

[Jaana]

I have said that many times, you cannot look at the 2005 Worlds as a valid example. People forget that Worlds was the ultimate train wreck, and naively think because Buttle and even Lysacek won silver and bronze medals there without a quad it can be done. Lambiel at those Worlds popped 3 of his most important triples to singles or doubles in the free skate, and still won the free skate by about 8 points, and after nearly clean qualifying and shorts, the overall Championship by about 16, even with these major problems in the final free. Buttle won silver without attemping a quad in any program, and falling twice in his final free skate to boot. Lysacek won bronze without a quad attempt, with two popped jumps in the free skate, and with no truly special qualities at all.

I would say that Lambiel, Buttle and Lysacek won gold, silver & bronze, because in that competition they skated better than the rest generally speaking. Not great performances, but the main purpose is to be better than others, LOL. And in 2006 Worlds both Lambiel and Lysacek repeated their achievements and stood on the podium again.

 

[antmanb]

Don't know you very well,so I have to ask...are you a skater?

I am an adult recreational skater who doesn't get to the rink as often as he'd like! I by no means have ever landed or even attempted a triple jump let alone a quad!! And i had a seriously bruised back side and hip for the few months that i was seriously attempting to land axels!

Ant

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Kulic and Stoyko were the only two possible quads back in 1998. Due to injury only one was in shape to do one and he did, and he won.

In 1994, Urmanov did not do a quad and neither did any of his competitors. There is no reason to compare here.

Back to the present. The current group of quad skaters have everything the nonquad skaters have in the Technical. As for the very subjective PCS scores, I doubt a brilliant performance by one nonquadder would be enough to beat out a quadder with better than average performance.

Quad king,joubert, imo,with a so so presentation will overtake nonquad Weir even if Weir gets back to his old self.

However, some of those nonquadders may have one this coming season. Let's see

Joe

 

[skatergirlaj]

I am an adult recreational skater who doesn't get to the rink as often as he'd like! I by no means have ever landed or even attempted a triple jump let alone a quad!! And i had a seriously bruised back side and hip for the few months that i was seriously attempting to land axels!

Ant

Yeah I am an adult recreational skater as well,who hasn't been to the rink in wayyyy too long due to having babies the last few yrs. And a serious lack of ice time.
I haven't attempted an axel myself because of my hip,it would be stupidity for me to even try it.I have jumped before though,I tried a single jump just to see if i could do it.I could,and was happy with that.So you won't see me getting into a jump harness any day in the near future(or distant for that matter).
Anyway,to answer your question, yes it's only a little bit more of a rotation to accomplish a quad vs a triple axel,but if you take into consideration the entire jump starting with the take off.The skater has to put into the jump more momentum at the beginning of the jump to accomplish that extra half rotation or so to make it a quad. And when something has more force behind it...the landing will be harder if only by a small fraction. It's like....to put it in a diff. sport...like in baseball/softball...I grew up in a ball playing family,most of us are pretty good pitchers,if I were to be practicing with my husband,who has taken up softball..and I threw the ball as hard as I can...put alot of force behind it,it's going to hit his glove harder than if i were to just gently toss it.
As far as the axel...it is the hardest of the triples imo..but...I still think a male champ. should be able to do one,especially if he isn't doing a quad. As far as the quad...they are awesome to see done,but i do wish it wasn't neccessary.Look at how many male skaters or the quad generation are having to have surgery,or have had serious injuries.I saw somewhere,can't remember where a demo on what landing a quad does to a persons joints.it wasn't good.

 

[antmanb]

Yeah I am an adult recreational skater as well,who hasn't been to the rink in wayyyy too long due to having babies the last few yrs. And a serious lack of ice time.
I haven't attempted an axel myself because of my hip,it would be stupidity for me to even try it.I have jumped before though,I tried a single jump just to see if i could do it.I could,and was happy with that.So you won't see me getting into a jump harness any day in the near future(or distant for that matter).
Anyway,to answer your question, yes it's only a little bit more of a rotation to accomplish a quad vs a triple axel,but if you take into consideration the entire jump starting with the take off.The skater has to put into the jump more momentum at the beginning of the jump to accomplish that extra half rotation or so to make it a quad. And when something has more force behind it...the landing will be harder if only by a small fraction. It's like....to put it in a diff. sport...like in baseball/softball...I grew up in a ball playing family,most of us are pretty good pitchers,if I were to be practicing with my husband,who has taken up softball..and I threw the ball as hard as I can...put alot of force behind it,it's going to hit his glove harder than if i were to just gently toss it.
As far as the axel...it is the hardest of the triples imo..but...I still think a male champ. should be able to do one,especially if he isn't doing a quad. As far as the quad...they are awesome to see done,but i do wish it wasn't neccessary.Look at how many male skaters or the quad generation are having to have surgery,or have had serious injuries.I saw somewhere,can't remember where a demo on what landing a quad does to a persons joints.it wasn't good.

Good luck getting back to the rink and contuing with your skating endeavours!!

I have to say though that i'm still not convinced that a quad requires so much more force than a triple axel, that it makes the difference between a career with injuries and career without. For one thing, th emost common quad the toe-loop is easier to achieve height becuase of th etoe pick assist - toe jumps are usually easier to make higher than edge jumps.

I'd be interested to see a study of how long a quad is compared to a tripe axel. I remember a good 8-10 years ago that someone did a proper scientific experiment with Alexei Urmanov's axel measuring the ditance covered by his single, double and triple, and i think measured the speed going in and speed of rotation (though i may be confusing that with a different experiement but length was definitely in Urmanov's).

Many skaters have had injuries in the past that weren't related to the quad but were related to the triple axel. I still think that the modern day of injuries was born from the abolishing of figures and skaters having much more time to practice jumps and therefore on repetition alone they pound their bodies harder regardless of the quads.

Ant

 

[jennylovskt]

Here are the latest news from Russia about Alexei Yagudin.

With English subtitle:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9GsimPiKpo

From Russia "Sports Week" August 27, 07(I wish someone could translate it):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6uMRCCe0zU

Alexei looks really fit and in a very good spirit after the surgery. It seems that Alexei fever is heating up in Russia. He will make all fans - new and old - fall in love all over again. Good luck, Alexei!!!!!!

 

[kittyjake5]

Thanks for the link to the video interview. He is looking very fit and seems determined to get back into shape for 2010. Can't wait to see how this plays out.