2020-21 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[macy]

Don't know that banning the element is necessarily the solution, so much as perhaps encouraging girls to adopt a less extreme posture when performing it - thinking of the girls who are so flexible they can press their heads to their legs. At any rate, this sent me off to see what sort of injuries, if any, are specifically associated with the Biellmann, and came across a 2018 article, 'Epidemiology of figure skating injuries: A review of the literature', by Han et al., published in Sports Health. Re the Biellmann it had the following to say:



The article is open access, so the whole thing is freely available. It's an interesting read; not all the literature it touches on is open access, but some of it is, if anyone wants to go more in-depth into the various injuries that figure skaters can be susceptible to.

yes, injuries from a biellmann are pretty common but banning it is definitely not the solution. i think if skaters did more targeted strength training and stretching for the area most affected by it, maybe the risk of injury would be less. and then there are the hyper extended biellmanns which are nice to look at, but probably have a higher risk of injury.

 

[Mathman]

Those words have zero value.

The main value in Zhenya's words are, "You should mind your own business."

 

[Fluture]

Except she contacted Orser in February? Unless you accuse Orser of lying I guess.

All that amounts to how much one should trust her word, personally I don't put very much weight to it. She's obviously going to be saying that whether she was planning a coaching change or not. She isn't just going to say "Yeah, I'm thinking of switching coaches" without downright announcing it. Those words have zero value.

Oh, so we‘re back to discussing Medvedeva‘s supposed lack of trustworthiness and her switch to Orser again? Didn‘t know it was still May 2018. Sorry, I‘ll pass. Just shared her comments on the rumours but I should have known that this was what it would lead to. Never changing, this thread, is it?

 

[Vemvane]

yes, injuries from a biellmann are pretty common but banning it is definitely not the solution. i think if skaters did more targeted strength training and stretching for the area most affected by it, maybe the risk of injury would be less. and then there are the hyper extended biellmanns which are nice to look at, but probably have a higher risk of injury.

So that would be more stretching for the psoas/hip flexors and the hamstrings, I suppose, and strengthening the core muscles and the glutes, to help stabilise the spine. But once the skater has spondylolysis, that would require rest, to allow the fracture to heal, especially as it seems to be aggravated by the impact of landing from a jump, as well as by rotation.

(Am currently reading through medical journals, so am very much Instant Expert, Just Add Water, right now.)

I'm also thinking that the haircutter layback spins are probably just as bad as the extreme Biellmanns; this thought prompted by comparing Evgenia's position in her Biellmann and her haircutter spins, where her spine was much more curved in the lumbar region for the haircutter. It would be interesting, though, to see if there is a physically "correct" position for these spins, in which it's unmistakably x spin, but comes with fewer detrimental effects on the body, while a more extreme version may be more exciting to watch, but is biomechanically "incorrect" or more harmful. On the other hand, maybe it's less about position, and more about the number of times a body can handle it, so limiting the training of it to reduce overuse injuries. All of which is a whole different discussion, and one more appropriate for actual skaters and medical doctors and physiotherapists to have, rather than me!

 

[macy]

So that would be more stretching for the psoas/hip flexors and the hamstrings, I suppose, and strengthening the core muscles and the glutes, to help stabilise the spine. But once the skater has spondylolysis, that would require rest, to allow the fracture to heal, especially as it seems to be aggravated by the impact of landing from a jump, as well as by rotation.

(Am currently reading through medical journals, so am very much Instant Expert, Just Add Water, right now.)

I'm also thinking that the haircutter layback spins are probably just as bad as the extreme Biellmanns; this thought prompted by comparing Evgenia's position in her Biellmann and her haircutter spins, where her spine was much more curved in the lumbar region for the haircutter. It would be interesting, though, to see if there is a physically "correct" position for these spins, in which it's unmistakably x spin, but comes with fewer detrimental effects on the body, while a more extreme version may be more exciting to watch, but is biomechanically "incorrect" or more harmful. On the other hand, maybe it's less about position, and more about the number of times a body can handle it, so limiting the training of it to reduce overuse injuries. All of which is a whole different discussion, and one more appropriate for actual skaters and medical doctors and physiotherapists to have, rather than me!

honestly i think before a biellmann is even attempted there needs to be a lot of training and stretching for those areas. so often we see skaters who can't really do a biellmann struggle to get their leg up all the way and just don't have the flexibility. not to mention it just doesn't look good at all. as far as a "correct" way to do it, i've always thought Alissa Czisny is a prime example of a perfect biellmann. she has the same body shape as Denise did, no hyper extension. of course all this is subjective and i don't necessarily think hyper extension is wrong, just a different way of doing it. there are some really nice ones like Caroline Zhang and Anna Shcherbakova. a haircutter to me is correct if the skater does not lift their upper body when catching their blade, it should not move. anyway, this is topic: and maybe can be discussed in another thread

 

[Fluture]

anyway, this is topic: and maybe can be discussed in another thread

I find the discussion very interesting to read even though I don‘t have much to add as I‘m not a skater myself. But I‘ve often wondered how spins like the biellmann affect skaters in the long run as back injuries seem to be very common, especially for the ladies.

Also, I just got to watch Sasha‘s documentary. There was some interesting stuff in it, like the part were Plushenko talks about her technique, which he called not “Mishin-like“. He wants to adapt it a bit, make it more “efficient“ in terms of rotation. Honestly, Mishin technique is usually pretty good and Plushenko landed quads for a long time. So, I‘m cautiously optimistic that these changes will be positive and might result in Sasha keeping her quads for a long time as well. Her 4T always looked fine to me but her 4Lz, 4S and 4F seemed as if they wouldn‘t be sustainable. Maybe Plushenko and Rozanov can do something about it. Will definitely be fascinating to see.

The other thing that stood out to me was, of course, the quad debate. I actually agree with Team Tutberidze in this regard that it‘s better to skate cleanly with three quads and focus on artistry, than try to cram in 5 quads and a 3A with an almost guaranteed fall. But obviously this didn‘t work for Sasha last season, she seemed unhappy and frustrated. So, maybe a change was in order. Honestly, I do hope that Rozanov and Plushenko limit the number of quads so that she doesn‘t overtrain herself and get injured but at the same time, I wonder whether it‘s even about how many jumps she does in training or just how her program layout looks like. Realistically, the 3A will be her best bet because it ensures that she doesn‘t get too far behind after the SP to Kihira, Kostornaya (if she gets the 3A back) and Shcherbakova. She wants 5 quads and a 3A but imo, it would definitely be smarter to go for the 3A in the SP and 3 quads in the FS first, get that stable and then try to build up. It sounds like a bad idea to jump right in with that insane layout so I really hope that‘s not what they‘re going to do.

 

[Pantsu]

The funny thing is that Medo gave her answer to the person who politely asked her about the possible coach change.
And somehow it is an examplary adult behaviour.
Should she just say "no" or "thank you for your concern, but i don't plan any coaching change", eh?

 

[macy]

I find the discussion very interesting to read even though I don‘t have much to add as I‘m not a skater myself. But I‘ve often wondered how spins like the biellmann affect skaters in the long run as back injuries seem to be very common, especially for the ladies.

Also, I just got to watch Sasha‘s documentary. There was some interesting stuff in it, like the part were Plushenko talks about her technique, which he called not “Mishin-like“. He wants to adapt it a bit, make it more “efficient“ in terms of rotation. Honestly, Mishin technique is usually pretty good and Plushenko landed quads for a long time. So, I‘m cautiously optimistic that these changes will be positive and might result in Sasha keeping her quads for a long time as well. Her 4T always looked fine to me but her 4Lz, 4S and 4F seemed as if they wouldn‘t be sustainable. Maybe Plushenko and Rozanov can do something about it. Will definitely be fascinating to see.

The other thing that stood out to me was, of course, the quad debate. I actually agree with Team Tutberidze in this regard that it‘s better to skate cleanly with three quads and focus on artistry, than try to cram in 5 quads and a 3A with an almost guaranteed fall. But obviously this didn‘t work for Sasha last season, she seemed unhappy and frustrated. So, maybe a change was in order. Honestly, I do hope that Rozanov and Plushenko limit the number of quads so that she doesn‘t overtrain herself and get injured but at the same time, I wonder whether it‘s even about how many jumps she does in training or just how her program layout looks like. Realistically, the 3A will be her best bet because it ensures that she doesn‘t get too far behind after the SP to Kihira, Kostornaya (if she gets the 3A back) and Shcherbakova. She wants 5 quads and a 3A but imo, it would definitely be smarter to go for the 3A in the SP and 3 quads in the FS first, get that stable and then try to build up. It sounds like a bad idea to jump right in with that insane layout so I really hope that‘s not what they‘re going to do.

i watched it too, and it actually made a lot of sense to me when they showed the side by sides between Sasha and Plushy. she doesn't get into air position as fast and therefore rotates slower. i think tweaking her technique will be beneficial and help her, i'm just concerned as to how long it will take to regain consistency. it is so different for every skater and Beijing is a year and a half away. it's a bit risky, unless Sasha doesn't mind taking her chances and won't rule out staying until 2026.

i'm honestly glad that at this point Aliona doesn't have a consistent quad. i can imagine there will be some tweaks to her 3A, but she can learn quads from scratch without having to relearn a new technique and change everything.

 

[macy]

The funny thing is that Medo gave her answer to the person who politely asked her about the possible coach change.
And somehow it is an examplary adult behaviour.
Should she just say "no" or "thank you for your concern, but i don't plan any coaching change", eh?

i think her response is appropriate based on the fact she was addressing rumors that were spreading relatively quickly, and it was aimed toward everyone who was speculating. i can imagine that can be really tiresome. it's not like she's wrong, i'd tell people the same thing.

 

[lopsilceci]

The funny thing is that Medo gave her answer to the person who politely asked her about the possible coach change.
And somehow it is an examplary adult behaviour.
Should she just say "no" or "thank you for your concern, but i don't plan any coaching change", eh?

One thing I've learned in this forum...
Almost anything is justified and even past mistakes are forgiven, as long as you're not associated with Eteri anymore

 

[el henry]

One thing I've learned in this forum...
Almost anything is justified and even past mistakes are forgiven, as long as you're not associated with Eteri anymore

And one thing I’ve learned from this forum is that almost any statement of Eteri’s will be defended to the hilt and justified and because, waaah, everyone’s always picking on her

Many things can be learned here

 

[el henry]

The funny thing is that Medo gave her answer to the person who politely asked her about the possible coach change.
And somehow it is an examplary adult behaviour.
Should she just say "no" or "thank you for your concern, but i don't plan any coaching change", eh?

Because Zhenya’s statement here was adult behavior.

I’m glad you agree:yes:

(Sorry for the double post didn’t see this earlier)

 

[Mathman]

Should she just say "no" or "thank you for your concern, but i don't plan any coaching change", eh?

Yes, that would have been better.

On the other hand, meh -- what does it matter what she says. All this nitpicky analysis is just an excuse for finding something unpleasant to say about skaters that we don't like for whatever reason.

 

[lopsilceci]

And one thing I’ve learned from this forum is that almost any statement of Eteri’s will be defended to the hilt and justified and because, waaah, everyone’s always picking on her

Many things can be learned here

Hmm, are we reading the same posts?
I don't think defending or justifying Eteri has ever been a prevailing opinion around here.

 

[el henry]

Yes, that would have been better.

On the other hand, meh -- what does it matter what she says. All this nitpicky analysis is just an excuse for finding something unpleasant to say about skaters that we don't like for whatever reason.

Don’t you see? It “proves” that any questioning or criticism of a coach who throws shade on skaters who leave is somehow unjustified or sour grapes, because a skater answering a question about whether they are leaving their current coach is the exact same thing, and we’re not criticizing *her*.

Man, I wish I had been able to convince some judges with that reasoning. It would have made my job a lot easier

 

[el henry]

Hmm, are we reading the same posts?
I don't think defending or justifying Eteri has ever been a prevailing opinion around here.

Wow, I guess we aren’t reading the same posts, but that’s OK. I think Eteri’s supporters are legion in this thread and they rise up at every opportunity. I’m not saying they shouldn’t, obviously I think anyone should make any argument they feel is valid.:thumbsup: But she does not lack for supporters.

And I have criticized any coach’s comments about skaters who leave and I will continue to, if I think it’s warranted. I don’t think it makes me, or anyone else with those opinions, a hater or hypocritical. It just makes me someone with different opinions.

And jumping off and not directed to anything you said, I do get more aggravated by whataboutism than I should. I had too much coffee this morning

 

[lopsilceci]

Wow, I guess we aren’t reading the same posts, but that’s OK. I think Eteri’s supporters are legion in this thread and they rise up at every opportunity. I’m not saying they shouldn’t, obviously I think anyone should make any argument they feel is valid.:thumbsup: But she does not lack for supporters.

And I have criticized any coach’s comments about skaters who leave and I will continue to, if I think it’s warranted. I don’t think it makes me, or anyone else with those opinions, a hater or hypocritical. It just makes me someone with different opinions.

And jumping off and not directed to anything you said, I do get more aggravated by whataboutism than I should. I had too much coffee this morning

If I'm honest, I'm partial to Eteri because she coaches my favorite skaters. Probably, I wouldn't have even started watching or being interested in figure skating if it weren't for Eteri skaters (first Yulia, then Alina).
I think you started caring more about Evgenia when she started training with and became friends with your favorite skater.
I think it works pretty much the same way for everyone here. We're more partial to some people and less to others for personal reasons, even if we try to be impartial. It's just human nature.

 

[cell]

i think her response is appropriate based on the fact she was addressing rumors that were spreading relatively quickly, and it was aimed toward everyone who was speculating. i can imagine that can be really tiresome. it's not like she's wrong, i'd tell people the same thing.

Gotta be honest it came across of as rude and abrasive, as the question was asked by a fan of hers, I think and didn't warrant this kind of response IMO. It's not the first time I've seen her reply in this way though. It's her Instagram, and she can be annoyed, but I mean... I don't know why she couldn't say: "no. I'm happy where I am and don't plan to switch. people need to stop creating rumors" or something

 

[el henry]

Gotta be honest it came across of as rude and abrasive, as the question was asked by a fan, I think and didn't warrant this kind of response IMO. It's not the first time I've seen her reply in this way though

Gotta be honest, I think it came across as measured, honest and adult. As I have always seen Zhenya answer questions:thumbsup:

 

[cell]

Gotta be honest, I think it came across as measured, honest and adult. As I have always seen Zhenya answer questions:thumbsup:

An adult response would be without all the "extra" words she chose to include, i.e. "Stop smoking drugs" (not literally but close) / "none of your business".