Irina Slutskaya and Olympics 2002

[mrrice]

Slutskaya was a dominant female Russian skater for about a decade and Russia had a few other female single skaters who could compete internationally. Because of this situation, Putin invested heavily on nurturing the next generation of figure skaters who could make the country proud. Just in time for Sochi, Yulia Lipnitskaya emerged dramatically in this environment, followed by the quad generation.

Russia had Maria Butyrskaya who was the 2002 European Champion heading into 2002. They also had Viktoria Volchkova who was a brilliant jumper in her day. Not the best choreography unfortunately.

We should also remember that Sarah had beaten both Michelle and Irina at Skate Canada 2001 leading up to the games. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34MEuKKyZa8

 

[Skater Boy]

even if you had Hughes over Slutskaya in the fs there is a good argument Sarah could have been or should have been lower in the sp which would have given Irina god but such is life. Even if you believe Sarah deserved gold how sad that skater like Irina and Michelle never got OGM. life isn't fair and what's fair to one is not fair not another. Sarah skated her best when it counted. I wish a gold could be given to skaters like Irina, Michelle. Brian Orser, Evgenia. Patrick, Linda Frantianne, Liz Manley. But even if good argument that they should have been given gold it didn't work out that way.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Irina was one of the most overscored competitors around during those years. Her skating was usually lacking in good choreography and she rarely delivered the Triple-Triple combinations that were used as a non-stop talking point about her ability as a competitor. A typical performance from her deserved a 5.7/5.6 grade, like at these Olympics. She should have been off the podium altogether. There was hardly a judging bias for the Americans, seeing as how they all outskated her and yet 4 of the judges still had Irina as the best. She needs to look at her own lack of flexibility, lack of detailed movement, superficial expression/musicality, telegraphed jumps with blocky posture, and rocky landings. Hughes' jumps may not have been perfect, but the rotations were fine enough at that competition; not so under as the had been other times. It was a truly beautiful performance, excellent lines and liquid spins put to great usage, an elegant performance that grew in ebullience as it went, untainted by nerves or caution.

 

[blue_idealist]

Irina was one of the most overscored competitors around during those years. Her skating was usually lacking in good choreography and she rarely delivered the Triple-Triple combinations that were used as a non-stop talking point about her ability as a competitor. A typical performance from her deserved a 5.7/5.6 grade, like at these Olympics. She should have been off the podium altogether. There was hardly a judging bias for the Americans, seeing as how they all outskated her and yet 4 of the judges still had Irina as the best. She needs to look at her own lack of flexibility, lack of detailed movement, superficial expression/musicality, telegraphed jumps with blocky posture, and rocky landings. Hughes' jumps may not have been perfect, but the rotations were fine enough at that competition; not so under as the had been other times. It was a truly beautiful performance, excellent lines and liquid spins put to great usage, an elegant performance that grew in ebullience as it went, untainted by nerves or caution.

I used to be excited by Irina, but when I watch her now, it's like her performances didn't stand the test of time. I don't know what I was so excited about, LOL. She's good, but not that good.

 

[sailormoon]

Russia had Maria Butyrskaya who was the 2002 European Champion heading into 2002. They also had Viktoria Volchkova who was a brilliant jumper in her day. Not the best choreography unfortunately.

I remember Viktoria Volchkova very well and she was a lovely skater. I saw her perform at one of the GP events that I attended at the time and she was one of the competitive skaters from Russia when Irina Slutskaya was the dominant one, winning two Olympic medals. Volchkova is now coaching young skaters. I was surprised to see her as a coach at the Russian Nationals a few years ago, looking pretty much like a young school teacher.

 

[Mathman]

^ What I remember about Victoria Volchkova is that she had an excellent triple Lutz-- at a time when most ladies' Lutzes were rather suspect.

 

[EyesOfLove]

This was an event the result of of which I could perfectly accept irrespective of controversies in regards to some aspects of judging. Although Slutskaya would have won the overall had she been rightly placed at first in SP, her LP just could NOT warrant her being a deserving winner, IMO. I'd even place her behind Kwan whose programs I thought were less-than-stellar then. It was Sarah Hughes, hands down, who took the event (and the enite arena) by the storm with her technical prowess and a remarkable presentation. Whoever suggested the substitution of Daphnes and Chloe at the end of the LP before the Olympics has done wonders with the program.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

In an interview from last year she shared pretty much the same thoughts about 2006 also.

She has always been very competitive, always go for gold, so i can understand her position on how the Olympics went.

I do believe there is also some truth to it, Figure Skating being so US centric at the time because of the sponsors, so there was more push for the americans to get the medals, and other skaters were completely ignored even in spite of often clean stronger performances. (for me Fumie Suguri was even more robbed than Irina).

That said looking back, Irina's free skate both in 2002 and 2006 didn't age all that well, there were mistakes.



2010 is still hard to digest for me personally, having rewatched the event multiple times all these years.

It's hard to understand where exactly Lysacek won.

You watch his free skate and Johnny Weir's FS side by side and i really don't understand where that 20 points gap comes from.

Packaging and quality of skating Weir, Takahashi, Lambiel, Chan all skate better than Lysacek: deeper edges, better posture, more skating on one foot. While technically Lysacek programs were not the most difficult.

Yes Lysacek had difficult entries but they weren't matched with the music at all, the positions weren't great and not held: take his catchfoot or his back spiral for example.

What's even more surprising is that came from Frank Carroll who kept saying for many years how figure skating shouldn't be about counting beans and that's what i feel watching Evan's performance, a lot of things done just to get the points, and for a Nichol program that was very conservative and not particularly original especially compared to the others.

There's the Rescoring of the 2010 thread, and generally people felt that Johnny deserved to be much closer to Lysacek. I think there was something very measured about Johnny's skating though which didn't let his artistry shine through. Johnny's lip issues also cost him points along with the messed up spin in his FS, whereas Lysacek didn't have any major technical issues and racked up GOE by how neatly and confidently he executed everything.

 

[lesnar001]

^ What I remember about Victoria Volchkova is that she had an excellent tripe Lutz-- at a time when most ladies' Lutzes were rather suspect.

Honestly, when did the obsession with "true lutzes" begin.
Didn't Julia Sebastyn have a gigantic lutz also?

But I don't remember anybody screaming about the unfairness of it all.
And how Julia Sebastyn or Victoria Volchkova were somehow victims.

I'll throw this question out there....
Just from memory, it seems like "flutzing" started around the time figures were no longer required.
Is there any cause and effect for this, or is it just coincidental?

 

[Mista Ekko]

The article has some minor inaccuracies here and there,

All in all i agree That Irina probably won the SP (I'm not a judge though)
And knowing this sport it's probably true that there was an effort to prevent her from winning over any US lady

I disagree with her saying she "Definitely won" though
She was in a situation where the odds (politically) were against her, And she needed to be undeniable,
Her FS wasn't undeniable, She left room for doubt

 

[Tolstoj]

Honestly, when did the obsession with "true lutzes" begin.
Didn't Julia Sebastyn have a gigantic lutz also?

But I don't remember anybody screaming about the unfairness of it all.
And how Julia Sebastyn or Victoria Volchkova were somehow victims.

I'll throw this question out there....
Just from memory, it seems like "flutzing" started around the time figures were no longer required.
Is there any cause and effect for this, or is it just coincidental?

Good question, i'd guess more than the figures, the big reason why flutzing started to become a thing is when the triple lutz started to become a standard, because of the particular setup for the lutz, it's easy to lose speed going in, so more difficult to rotate, in fact it is regarded as the most difficult jump to learn.

So in order to make that happen, coaches and skaters came up with all sorts of tricks like the switch from the inside to the outside edge the very last second to gain momentum.

ISU especially in the old 6.0 system used to overlook these mistakes mistakes unless they were evident, so that pushed the idea that you can live with a wrong edge, which brought to generations of skaters with questionable lutzes.

Yuna fans were very obsessed by the lutz technique, as it was her biggest strenght while Mao's weakness or even Adelinas, prior to her era i don't recall this much attention for the lutz specifically.

It's more a fans thing cause you look at scores and skaters, and we still see many flutzes and judges overlooking edge calls today (Medvedeva and Osmond in Pyeongchang, Sotnikova at Sochi).

 

[labgoat]

Good question, i'd guess more than the figures, the big reason why flutzing started to become a thing is when the triple lutz started to become a standard, because of the particular setup for the lutz, it's easy to lose speed going in, so more difficult to rotate, in fact it is regarded as the most difficult jump to learn.

So in order to make that happen, coaches and skaters came up with all sorts of tricks like the switch from the inside to the outside edge the very last second to gain momentum.

ISU especially in the old 6.0 system used to overlook these mistakes mistakes unless they were evident, so that pushed the idea that you can live with a wrong edge, which brought to generations of skaters with questionable lutzes.

Yuna fans were very obsessed by the lutz technique, as it was her biggest strenght while Mao's weakness or even Adelinas, prior to her era i don't recall this much attention for the lutz specifically.

It's more a fans thing cause you look at scores and skaters, and we still see many flutzes and judges overlooking edge calls today (Medvedeva and Osmond in Pyeongchang, Sotnikova at Sochi).

One of the earlier mentions was at 1997-1998 Skate America. Both Michelle and Tara had triple lutzes. Everything was under a microscope. Ultimately in their rivalry what made the difference was the triple-triple combination jump and not the flutz or maturity or age.

Below is a mention of the flutz by Peggy Fleming in Tara's SP:
https://youtu.be/ZW8139eopi8?t=223

and the high free leg kick by Dick Button in the free skate:
https://youtu.be/fpWerkMoNgI?t=77

And for Michelle
https://youtu.be/BKCMWlDUGxw?t=273

and at US Nationals for Tara in the long...
https://youtu.be/a5gaP59enTI?t=81

 

[Scott512]

Please, share your thoughts on this:
https://www.rt.com/sport/497286-irina-slutskaya-salt-lake-games/

Great article on Irina she had a great career and is having a great life after skating with marriage and three children. But it was a bumpy road for her and she's a fighter. As for Salt Lake City I was rooting for Irina and was disappointed for her and I think even more disappointed in Turin in in 2006. Irina had a pretty negative attitude and thought the judges would be against her and I think that affected her skating . I remember her saying in 2006 because Russia won the other three disciplines before the ladies competition she said there was no way they were going to let her win. That attitude really hurt her and she had a real great chance to win in 06 . She had a real chance to win both Olympic Games and become a historic figure skater. But a few mistakes in each Olympics cost her dearly. I really think you can make a case for Irina winning and Salt Lake City. But there's nothing definitive. I never expected Sarah to come from 4th to 1st place and win the gold.

Hey in back-to-back Olympics America had Tara winning at 15 and Sarah at 16. Tara also won world's at 14 which is unbelievable and Michelle was great at 15 and 16. Funny how I don't remember after Salt Lake City games if there was a big outcry to raise the age limit. although I'm sure Christine Brennan was writing articles about how the age limit should be raised. Um not.

 

[Mathman]

Honestly, when did the obsession with "true lutzes" begin.
Didn't Julia Sebastyn have a gigantic lutz also?

But I don't remember anybody screaming about the unfairness of it all.
And how Julia Sebastyn or Victoria Volchkova were somehow victims.

I wouldn't say these skaters are victims of anything. They had good triple Lutzes, but other skaters were better at other aspects of skating.

As for figures, the first triple Lutz by a l;ady (Denise Biellmann) was in 1978, right during the time that figures were being phased out. For some reason, men rarely have edge issues on the Lutz (they are more likely to get edge calls of atheir flip). I don't know if their is a physiological reason for this -- maybe men have greater upper body strength so they can wrench themselves arround in the counter-direction, or something like that. Some men -- Boyang Jin, for instance -- actually deapen their outside edge in the approach, even on a quad Lutz, while women are more likely to need some technical finagling (as recounted by Tolstoj in post 31 above).

 

[labgoat]

I wouldn't say these skaters are victims of anything. They had good triple Lutzes, but other skaters were better at other aspects of skating.

As for figures, the first triple Lutz by a lady (Denise Biellmann) was in 1978, right during the time that figures were being phased out. For some reason, men rarely have edge issues on the Lutz (they are more likely to get edge calls of atheir flip). I don't know if their is a physiological reason for this -- maybe men have greater upper body strength so they can wrench themselves arround in the counter-direction, or something like that. Some men -- Boyang Jin, for instance -- actually deapen their outside edge in the approach, even on a quad Lutz, while women are more likely to need some technical finagling (as recounted by Tolstoj in post 31 above).

Both Julia Sebestyen and Viktoria Volchkova had beautiful lutzes and very good skating skills. I think both suffered in their second mark in that their skates were not memorable. Viktoria may have been very shy as she seemed to have very little change in expression.

Speaking as a woman-- we have hips. I feel it may be harder to keep wider , mature hips aligned over edges. I feel younger, less developed ladies may have an easier time until a growth spurt happens. The growth period is less dramatic for men than for women.

 

[Mathman]

Hey in back-to-back Olympics America had Tara winning at 15 and Sarah at 16. Tara also won world's at 14 which is unbelievable and Michelle was great at 15 and 16. Funny how I don't remember after Salt Lake City games if there was a big outcry to raise the age limit. although I'm sure Christine Brennan was writing articles about how the age limit should be raised. Um not.

The hue and cry had taken place a few years earlier, and in fact both Tara and Sarah, by lucky timing, got grandfathered in during transition periods to new age limits. If the new rules had gone into effect at once, instead of with a grace period for skaters already in the system, neither would have been eligible for their world champipionship appearances.

There were in fact quite a few articles -- even books -- about it at the time. I am not sure what Christine Brennan thought, but a number of U.S. commentators decried the "little girls in pretty boxes" aspect of figure skating, as it had become in the late 1990s.

 

[Mathman]

^ P.S. Now that I think about it, I am pretty sure that Christine Brennan did consider the age issue in both of her two books: Inside Edge (1997), billed as an expose of the inner workings of the figure skating establishment, and Edge of Glory (1999) specifically about Michelle and Tara leading up to the 1998 Olympics.

By the way, I see that Edge of Glory has come out in a new edition (2013). Brennan's book was very much "Michelle-centered" -- I don't think she ever forgave Tara for messing up the ending that Brennan had envisioned.

 

[Big Deal]

Oh common. What a bull....t.
Strange that Irina as a nice person should say something like this to get some attention. "Politic" reasons? Russia got 2 golds in Salt Lake City out of 4 (5).
If anyone use the word "politics" in figure skating in a negative manner than this person can NOT be Russian.....

 

[Thrashergurl]

Yes, there was a huge outcry but it was when LIPINSKI won Worlds in 97 and Olympic gold in 98. Many posters to this board seem to be newer to the sport, but this is a fact. There was a huge outcry and Tara was injured because of her 3loop/3loop combos, and there was much talk of how younger skaters shouldn’t be seniors and damages to their body. This is not new to the Russian skaters at all.

Back to the Salt Lake City Short Programs, seeing the performances live, you noticed that Kwan had the better overall skate. She had a bobble, but her other elements were stronger than Slutskaya’s.

Also, had Kwan been in 2nd after the short she may have skated with less pressure in the long and won. We will never know. Many of us in attendance believed a case could’ve been made for Kwan taking gold there. Irina was sloppy and her program was a mess. Many believed Irina should’ve been off the podium. Either way, judges got it right with Sarah.

 

[Mista Ekko]

Also, had Kwan been in 2nd after the short she may have skated with less pressure in the long and won. We will never know. Many of us in attendance believed a case could’ve been made for Kwan taking gold there. Irina was sloppy and her program was a mess. Many believed Irina should’ve been off the podium. Either way, judges got it right with Sarah.

I think that's a bogus remark, Many?
She completed her FS, No major errors, Ladies judging back then complemented her,
I don't think there was any buzz about her not fitting on that podium
Maybe just a hindsight of 8+ years later as the Ladies were becoming generally more refined