Irina Slutskaya and Olympics 2002

[Jontor]

I think Slutskaya was robbed in the short, plus Hughes was way overscored in the short - and that would have made all the difference.

Hughes sold her FS well, but it was infested with URs.

I recommend the interview TSL did with the American judge. He admitted that he chose to ignore Hughes' "cheated jumps", and if he hadn't, Irina would have won.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoLsv3v1uLA

 

[Skatesocs]

Which URs do people think were in Hughes' programs?

I think we should establish a standard - say pre-2018, evaluated by 2010-18 standards. This because it lasted the longest. The "90 is also UR" lasted two seasons, we are doing "q" currently and we don't want to do that "UR = downgrade" thing.

 

[Blades of Passion]

There's no way Irina should have been behind Sasha at that event. Sasha's scores in SLC were inflated way above what she received in international events prior to that, primarily because the quality of her skating wasn't nearly as good as it was a few years later (when she did her spirals on actual edges). I would have been ok with Irina winning, but this is the Olympics and I don't think you can argue you were "robbed" when you got outclassed athletically. The Olympic motto is FASTER, HIGHER, STRONGER; it isn't the place to rest on your reputation or complain that your artistry wasn't sufficiently rewarded by the judges.

Sasha's scores weren't inflated at all, she had amazing quality and was was undermarked if anything, being a newcomer. What reputation was she resting on LOL? Her spirals were on edges and the positions were otherworldly. Trying to degrade her because of that is folly. It's also ridiculous to say someone shouldn't complain about their artistry not being sufficiently rewarded when that was 1/2 of the score. She moved to the music better than Slutskaya and had much better carriage and extension. These things are supposed to matter. She also actually landed more clean Triples in the LP than Slutskaya, depending on how someone wants to view the lutzes.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

She didn't. It was Hughes who made a ton of errors.




No, it wasn't. Hughes marks for her poor SP were a gift. Kwan's marks in the SP were also a gift. The SP was where Slutslkaya was robbed.




The triple flip was the only jump that had a slight flaw and even that was a countable, landed jump in the end. The 3Lz+2L was clean. There was no stepout on the other jump combination.




She wasn't flawless. Like I've said, she made ton of errors. Almost all jumps except for the double axel and triple toe (the easiest jumps) were underrotated, hence flawed.





It was close, and the marks indicated that.

You are wrong on almost everything.

You’re entitled to your opinion and your own technical calls as you see them. If you think the 3S+2L+Eu+2S was purely intentional (if you slow it down you can clearly see she over rotated the loop and couldn’t check out her free leg and was forced to cover it up as a Euler) and that dumbing down two triple-triples to triple double combos is more notable than 3-3< combos that’s up to you. But realize that this was 6.0 where a lot of credence went to how you went out to compete and Sarah went out to compete while Irina shrunk, was slow, and held back - you could tell she was thinking through the entire program and was “hanging on” to the performance whereas Hughes skated with confidence and abandon. Even underrotated Hughes jumps were less telegraphed and had greater flow and landing position. If you think the flip was Irina’s only issue, you might want to be a tad more critical. Her spins weren’t even great with her final spin having the positions barely held. It was frenetic, nervous and rushed. And not worthy of gold. Of course, you are welcome to see it otherwise. You do you, boo.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Sasha's scores weren't inflated at all, she had amazing quality and was was undermarked if anything, being a newcomer. What reputation was she resting on LOL? Her spirals were on edges and the positions were otherworldly. Trying to degrade her because of that is folly. It's also ridiculous to say someone shouldn't complain about their artistry not being sufficiently rewarded when that was 1/2 of the score. She moved to the music better than Slutskaya and had much better carriage and extension. These things are supposed to matter. She also actually landed more clean Triples in the LP than Slutskaya, depending on how someone wants to view the lutzes.

I’m curious what you mean by the lutzes comment? Neither of Sasha’s lutzes were completed with good quality - with very obvious flutzing, scratchy landings and the second lutz was off kilter in the air too. Not that Irina’s lutzes were as good as she can do them but they were better than Sasha’s.

 

[Blades of Passion]

I’m curious what you mean by the lutzes comment? Neither of Sasha’s lutzes were completed with good quality

She landed them without as visibly big of an error as Slutskaya had on her Flip, hence it's possible to count more "clean Triples" for her in the LP than what Slutskaya had. They weren't good quality but they were there. The main point being, there's no way Slutskaya deserved more than .1 higher on technical merit when comparing those performances, but the second mark is the tiebreaker for the LP, which very arguably Sasha should have beaten Slutskaya on.

 

[Scott512]

In some ways, Michelle and Irina have the same accomplishments. Both were world champions and Olympic medalists. Both had tremendous name recognition while remaining near the top of the podium for a long period of time inspiring countless skaters around the world. I first saw both her and Kwan compete at junior world and was impressed by Irina's drive, charm and vivacity. She exhibited these qualities her entire career along with difficult, well executed spins and high jumps in marvelous combinations. She overcame a difficult transition to womanhood and overcame medical problems. I find I still respect her as a sportswoman and appreciate the rapport she and Michelle had for each other. She has a remarkable number of accomplishments from her long career that few match. I loved watching her grow up from a spunky girl to a resilient young woman. I still watch her performances and get caught up in her energy. It seems the price of having a long career is to not get the top prize. We haven't had many of these examples outside of Suguri, Sebestyen and Kostner.

They were two peas in a pod for sure. Super all-time great careers for both ladies. I can only hope they're happy in life. I don't think less of them because neither won the Olympic gold medal. No question Irina and Michelle had a great respect for each other.

 

[Scott512]

It depends I guess. Yelena Isinbaeva got two gold and a bronze at three Olympic games and without the ban would have gone to Rio too and maybe even scored a 4th medal there. Katharina Witt also won 2 gold and competed at Lillehammer for her third Olympic games. Kelly Clark won gold in 2002 at Salt Lake and kept going to the Olympics until 2018, winning two more bronze and two more 4th places at the Halfpipe events, finishing her career in 2019 after 18 years!

From my point of view it has a lot to do with the mindset of an athlete. You got those one hit wonders and you got those that go the distance. Of course the financial aspect and desire to have children also plays a role, but you can combine all that with being a successful athlete too, as seen with Dasha Domratschawa. We also have to factor in that in artistic sports, young athletes do have an advantage so it becomes harder to stay on top to qualify which makes the achievements of those above even more noteworthy.

I would say this is currently the number one reason the russian girls only last for one olympic cycle, the youth just takes over so that the chance to even qualify is so low, that the motivation to work every day goes below 0 and they have to focus on education and their future life.

I don't know why we're talking about about Isinbaeva in here. But she may very well be Russia's greatest sportswoman. I'm still pissed off she did not get a chance to go to the last Olympics where she may have won another gold medal. Maybe Russian athletes like her especially in the track and field division maybe should train outside of Russia has tonight's get lumped into the toublesome program that is still under pressure from the international Olympic Committee. Athletes careers have been wasted by the p e d scandal and those clean athletes got lumped in with the dirty ones and you don't know who's who. Whenever the next Winter Olympics is I sure hope Russia isn't ban there because that was kill of the ladies figure skating competition.

It's too bad the figure skaters could not have careers as long as hers. There's just too much competition for the Russian girls there's always somebody to take their spot and that's not going to change anytime soon.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

She landed them without as visibly big of an error as Slutskaya had on her Flip, hence it's possible to count more "clean Triples" for her in the LP than what Slutskaya had. They weren't good quality but they were there. The main point being, there's no way Slutskaya deserved more than .1 higher on technical merit when comparing those performances, but the second mark is the tiebreaker for the LP, which very arguably Sasha should have beaten Slutskaya on.

They were still “clean” triples even the flip. Poorly executed and a nosedive on the flip but there was no hand touch or two foot.

If Sasha hadn’t gone for the opening 3-3 the latter of which was severely underrotated and she fell and only did a 3Z+2T I feel like she might have scored closer to Irina - she also had obvious centering issues in her combo spin for which I would have expected some judges to deduct 0.1. Couple that wonky spin with her scratchy landings and the fall (and yes to an extent being a newbie and not having the clout yet) and it’s understandable how she was scored. No, a sublime spiral sequence doesn’t save that either.

I also think you’re artistically giving Sasha too much artistic credit (I don’t think she had good projection and it was clear that she wasn’t a seasoned senior competitor) but of course that is subjective. Fantastic Russian splits and some nice highlights but there wasn’t a ton of confidence or fire in her skating yet. Still held her own given it was her first major senior competition. Irina showed more emotion in the latter half even though she was slow - Sasha chose Carmen and did not do the character justice but can be forgiven for it given the stage and the nervousness she must have felt to deliver, especially after putting herself in medal contention.

But skate order mattered and it was a series of circumstances that led her to go for the yolo 3-3... namely Sarah already Sasha slaying with huge scores and two 3-3s and knowing Kwan and Slutskaya had yet to skate (and also obviously not knowing they would end up not performing their best). So Cohen felt compelled to go for broke, even though her 3-3 wasn’t even close and an experienced skater would have only tacked on a double onto that wonky lutz to open. If Cohen were last to skate I feel like she would have gone for a more Arakawa approach and skate cleanly without risk, and thus give her a better shot of a medal against a faltered Kwan/Slutskaya.

 

[Ladskater]

"P.s. not a fan of the NBC commentary - obviously pro-US and no Scott," actually Scott is one of the commentators.

 

[Blades of Passion]

They were still “clean” triples even the flip. Poorly executed and a nosedive on the flip but there was no hand touch or two foot.

Slutskaya's 3F was not clean, pitching forward like that with such a sloppy free leg and coming to a standstill on the landing with an uncontrolled turn of the edge is not better than putting a hand down on the ice. It's semantics to dwell on what you want to call it as, the point is comparing all the jumps they did in their programs, the only overall advantage Slustskya really has is doing a +2Lo combo instead of Cohen's 3Toe< fall. That's rather marginal, not enough to merit more than .1 differential.

she also had obvious centering issues in her combo spin for which I would have expected some judges to deduct 0.1. No, a sublime spiral sequence doesn’t save that either.

There is no deduction for that spin, LOL. She could have done the camel better but it wasn't required there and she ends up doing an extremely difficult position that is held for a long time and centered. If you want to talk spins, then Cohen's layback and flying camel and scratch were all better than Slutskaya's. And yes a sublime spiral does matter, you can't just ignore it.

I also think you’re artistically giving Sasha too much artistic credit (I don’t think she had good projection and it was clear that she wasn’t a seasoned senior competitor) but of course that is subjective. Fantastic Russian splits and some nice highlights but there wasn’t a ton of confidence or fire in her skating yet. Still held her own given it was her first major senior competition. Irina showed more emotion in the latter half even though she was slow

Irina did not show more emotion, what on earth? She skated with a lack of personality and expression throughout and then at the end just flailed around grabbing her head unconvincingly. Sasha's performance certainly did show more fire (look at the expression on her face after that 3F landing for example, or how she claps her hands together, or thrusts her arms upward in the choreography, or those split jumps), regardless of it not being the best Carmen ever. She did better justice to the character than Slutskaya did to Tosca, that's for damn sure. There was better carriage, better choreographic highlight, and more softness to the movement when it was called for. Slutskaya showed somewhat better basic skating, but overall presentation definitely goes to Cohen. Trying to downgrade her just because of being newer to the scene is so unfair, she didn't even look "more nervous"; Slutskaya was out there sweating bullets and showed a lack of confidence in that performance herself. If Cohen allegedly "didn't look like a seasoned senior", then Slutskaya in comparison looked like a bland slab of cow meat that was left sitting out too long.

 

[Skatesocs]

then Slutskaya in comparison looked like a bland slab of cow meat that was left sitting out too long.

Really?

 

[Blades of Passion]

Really?

I mean if we are making unfair qualifications...

Cohen looked liked she belonged there, but if she was supposedly just an unseasoned cut of veal, then what does that say about someone who skated with less refinement and musicality and panache? A bland, cheap leftover steak sounds pretty accurate then. I find it very silly to judge competitors based upon these irrelevant things. Someone can be a first year senior and skate with superb quality, as much as someone can be a veteran and skate tiredly and without poise.

 

[Skatesocs]

I mean if we are making unfair qualifications...

Cohen looked liked she belonged there, but if she was supposedly just an unseasoned cut of veal, then what does that say about someone who skated with less refinement and musicality and panache? A bland, cheap leftover steak sounds pretty accurate then. I find it very silly to judge competitors based upon these irrelevant things. Someone can be a first year senior and skate with superb quality, as much as someone can be a veteran and skate tiredly and without poise.

I mean I laughed. But still.

I agree that Cohen showed better musicality and personality. She's quite magnetic here already, I was quite surprised when the Olympic Channel YT aired this event a few months back and I watched it again. And I do think she deserved 3rd. Irina's Tosca was just bad.

 

[David21]

You’re entitled to your opinion and your own technical calls as you see them.

Thank you. You're welcome to disagree with me.

The main point being, there's no way Slutskaya deserved more than .1 higher on technical merit when comparing those performances

With Slutskaya's superior jump height and edge quality (and the fact that several of Cohen's jumps [flip and both lutzes] might have been two-footed), there's a good argument to give Slutskaya at least 0.2 higher in the technical mark like 5 of the 9 judges (even the US judge) did.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Cohen's jumps weren't two-footed, that's not even a question, just look at the replays. Slutskaya did not have textbook lutz edges either, and her second one was particularly questionable on the edge. She jumped them bigger, sure, but then she had the messy flip landing, which cancels out that advantage.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Cohen's jumps weren't two-footed, that's not even a question, just look at the replays. Slutskaya did not have textbook lutz edges either, and her second one was particularly questionable on the edge. She jumped them bigger, sure, but then she had the messy flip landing, which cancels out that advantage.

So then you do acknowledge how an issue can cancel out an advantage. Except you disregarded the issue on Cohen’s spin because she does a nice position later in it (which was still itself was not even centred well). This was 6.0 - if a skater makes an error they should get deducted for it. Did I say Slutskaya’s 3F has good height so that should counteract the nosedive on the landing? No - it was an error and her tech score should be adversely affected (even though there isn’t a deduction in the 6.0 rules ascribed to a “tight landing” or nosedive or break in form on the landing as long as it’s on one foot with no supporting hand or foot it counts as a landed "clean" triple).

But the reality is Sasha FELL. That jumping pass alone cost her a medal. That is typically a 0.3 deduction. Wrong edge takeoffs (ie both of Cohen’s lutzes which were WAY more flutzes than Irina's, if we are being fair) is 0.1-0.3. And underrotation is -0.3 and that’s for a UR when Cohen’s wasn’t even a UR triple toe that was a downgrade and not even close. It’s not like Cohen did a later 3-3 to boost her technical score. Her spin advantage was somewhat negated by having an error in her combo spin. Point is - doing a 3T<< fall was a costly error by Cohen . Slutskaya “stayed on her feet” even if the 3F was ugly and her jumps were higher than Cohen’s (although I would say several of Cohen’s jumps were done neatly). The fall was a technical error and marred the artistic integrity of Cohen’s program (as Scott said "the fall really cost her, and cost her on the second mark too"). Similar to Kwan's 3F fall it was an ugly, awkward moment moreso than Irina’s 3F nosedive which was awkward but quick recovery. Slutskaya/Cohen/Kwan were all a bit overscored on technical. If I were judging I would probably say 5.7/5.7 for Slutskaya and 5.6/5.7 for Cohen. Kwan I would give 5.6/5.8 and Hughes I would give a 5.8/5.8.

Also calling Slutskaya a slab of cow meat is pretty low — even for you... referring to these women as cuts of meat in general is super weird and creepy.

 

[Skatesocs]

^I agree actually on Hughes' and Kwan's scores - I had the same in fact. Had Cohen at 5.7/5.7. OTOH, it's the presentation score we disagree on with Slutskaya, I had her at 5.4 which ended any chance with the win or podium. She was quite slow and tentative and the choreo was bad. If she had her 2006 LP here, or even her 1996 LP here she might have podiumed for me, or at least done +3Lo combos.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

^I agree actually on Hughes' and Kwan's scores - I had the same in fact. Had Cohen at 5.7/5.7. OTOH, it's the presentation score we disagree on with Slutskaya, I had her at 5.4 which ended any chance with the win or podium. She was quite slow and tentative and the choreo was bad. If she had her 2006 LP here, or even her 1996 LP here she might have podiumed for me, or at least done +3Lo combos.

I get that Slutskaya wasn't doing it for you, and artistically she was very ho hum, but 5.4 is way harsh. That puts her on par artistically with Robinson who was lovely... but no.

 

[cohen-esque]

So then you do acknowledge how an issue can cancel out an advantage. Except you disregarded the issue on Cohen’s spin because she does a nice position later in it (which was still itself was not even centred well). This was 6.0 - if a skater makes an error they should get deducted for it. Did I say Slutskaya’s 3F has good height so that should counteract the nosedive on the landing? No - it was an error and her tech score should be adversely affected (even though there isn’t a deduction in the 6.0 rules ascribed to a “tight landing” or nosedive or break in form on the landing as long as it’s on one foot with no supporting hand or foot it counts as a landed "clean" triple). But the reality is Sasha FELL on the 3T. That is typically a 0.3 deduction. Wrong edge takeoffs (ie both of Cohen’s lutzes) is 0.1-0.3. And underrotation is -0.3 and that’s for a UR when Cohen’s wasn’t even a UR triple toe that was a downgrade and not even close. It’s not like Cohen did a later 3-3 to boost her technical score. Her spin advantage was somewhat negated by having an error in her combo spin. Her spirals were fantastic but that’s like what a 0.1 bonus? Point is - doing a 3T<< fall was a costly error by Cohen . Slutskaya “stayed on her feet” even if the 3F was ugly and her jumps were higher than Cohen’s (although I would say several of Cohen’s jumps were done neatly). The fall was a technical error and marred the artistic integrity of Cohen’s program moreso than Irina’s 3F. Both were a bit overscored on technical. If I were judging I would probably say 5.7/5.7 for Slutskaya and 5.6/5.7 for Cohen. Kwan I would give 5.6/5.8 and Hughes I would give a 5.8/5.8.

This might be somewhat more compelling if you didn’t rely on mandatory short program deductions that were not applicable to the free skate.