Irina Slutskaya and Olympics 2002

[drivingmissdaisy]

So you're suggesting that Inman put Slutskaya ahead of Kwan because he subconsciously wanted Hughes to win? I can't tell if you are saying he was being corrupt or wasn't being corrupt as you keep saying contradictory things.

And yes, doing a turn on a foot between spirals is immensely more difficult and riskier than a change of edge. And Slutskaya's back spiral holding the leg was done for longer longer and covered way more distance than Kwan's back spiral. If you've ever skated yourself, you would know that doing an edge change is easier than doing a turn which can lose momentum and speed when you and don't have the other foot push off for speed -- which is what made Slutskaya's one foot footwork and spiral sequence so difficult. Another differentiator is that Kwan's edge change spiral and back spiral were both done on the same foot, whereas Slutskaya showed the ability to do prolonged spirals on both the left and right foot. I also appreciated Slutskaya's graceful arm movements while doing her spirals instead of just a static arms like so many spirals, and showing strength and speed and control. Even at the end of her back spiral she does that 3-turn to show that she still has speed and control, which punctuated the sequence better than Kwan's forward spiral that was barely held. The only technical aspect of Kwan's spiral sequence that was better than Slutskaya's is is that her initial spiral position was held longer than any spiral position Slutskaya did which was indeed difficult. I'm not saying Kwan's wasn't an exquisite or hard sequence sequence - it's her signature move and it was clearly a highlight and from an artistic standpoint it highlighted the music better than Slutskaya, but from a purely technical standpoint, Slutskaya's spiral sequence was harder overall. Slutskaya's it takes greater control and leg strength, and there is more inherent risk in doing a turn instead of an edge change. Interestingly, laterSlutskaya did a Bielmann Spiral with an edge change herself later on.

Sorry, when I said "you" I was talking about random posters who are unwilling to consider perspectives outside their own. Not you.

I don't think Inman was corrupt. I think his vote made sense and shouldn't be questioned as others (not you) have, especially when, as you pointed out, he placed Sarah 4th in the SP and out of reach of Kwan.

 

[Skatesocs]

Sorry, when I said "you" I was talking about random posters who are unwilling to consider perspectives outside their own. Not you.

I think, interestingly, one should always ask oneself this question first...

To me, I think people have made the case that Cohen shouldn't be on the podium. I disagree, but I can see it - top 2 in SP, and Irina doing better jumps-wise in the LP. I do think people here think Kwan> Slutskaya though. Seems like CanadianSkaterGuy agrees with his placement?

 

[Blades of Passion]

So you're suggesting that Inman put Slutskaya ahead of Kwan because he subconsciously wanted Hughes to win?

There's no way to know, but there are relevant reasons for a judge, particularly him, to swap who they feel actually deserves to be 2nd and 3rd in the LP, in order to get the correct overall competition winner, because of the silly 6.0 system where someone could own everyone else in the LP but be too far back in the SP, even though they skated well in that segment.

It really doesn't matter why he ultimately ranked them as he did though. It doesn't have anything to do with objectively assessing the performances for ourselves.

The only technical aspect of Kwan's spiral sequence that was better than Slutskaya's is that her initial spiral position was held longer than any spiral position Slutskaya did

This is SO wrong. Kwan's extension, effortlessness of raising the leg, carriage, edge change, total body movement, and total amount of time in spiral were all superior.

Slutskaya's back spiral holding the leg was done for longer longer and covered way more distance than Kwan's back spiral.

So what? Slutskaya's position was worse and Kwan held her other positions longer. There was no requirement whatsoever that someone needed to do a back spiral for a certain amount of time, and holding a worse back spiral for longer than someone else who already vastly out-spiraled you doesn't show anything meaningful. There was also no requirement of doing held positions on both feet. Kwan did do positions on both feet, multiple positions, and while she chose to do shorter ones on her opposing leg, it's fine. Slutskaya did not show any capability of quickly raising her leg into a well extended position, particularly not without hand support.

If you've ever skated yourself, you would know that doing an edge change is easier than doing a turn which can lose momentum and speed when you and don't have the other foot push off for speed

Nope, needing to keep the free leg up throughout an edge change, and well extended and with great posture, is harder than completely dropping out of spiral position to do a turn and then doing a lesser 2 second spiral afterward. If Slutskaya had done some kind of great spiral after the turn that would be a different story, but she didn't.

It's ridiculous to suggest otherwise, when it's a fact that very few people have shown the ability to do a spiral with Kwan's extension and posture and solidity of edge, while plenty of people can do spirals with Slutskaya's level of extension and break in form.

I also appreciated Slutskaya's graceful arm movements while doing her spirals instead of just a static arms like so many spirals

LOL, arm movements? She did a simple one-arm movement on the second forward spiral and the back spiral. Slutskaya's body form was inferior, you know what carriage is right? It's more difficult, or at least equally difficult, to hold your body in the position Kwan did with "static" arms, and Kwan did arm movements at the end of her classic spiral anyway, and arm movements in every other position she did! She did more than Slutskaya in this regard!

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I do think people have made the case that Cohen shouldn't be on the podium. I disagree, but I can see it - top 2 in SP, and Irina doing better jumps-wise in the LP. I do think people here think Kwan> Slutskaya though. Seems like CanadianSkaterGuy agrees with his placement?

I don't, simply because you did not beat your top competitors under 6.0 with a fall. I think some people look back at these programs with COP eyes, in which a fall doesn't take you out of contention.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I think, interestingly, one should always ask oneself this question first...

To me, I think people have made the case that Cohen shouldn't be on the podium. I disagree, but I can see it - top 2 in SP, and Irina doing better jumps-wise in the LP. I do think people here think Kwan> Slutskaya though. Seems like CanadianSkaterGuy agrees with his placement?

Seems like it based on my scores but it’s notable that Michelle (5.6/5.8) ties Irina (5.7/5.7) in the FS and is purely ranked higher on tiebreaker. As those in the NY times article said, it could have gone either way. Irina was lacklustre but Michelle fell (and had tight jumps). If Irina’s salchow combo were more secure and the flip landing was nicer, she would have been solidly ahead of Kwan (5.8/5.7) and get silver. Although if Michelle had skated flawlessly, she might have beaten Hughes with a 5.8/5.9 on my scorecard. Coulda shoulda woulda though.

 

[Skatesocs]

The discussion in this thread has made me happy about CoP's existence, flaws and all. At least we can look at a call and say it was wrong instead of this discussion about spirals.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Spirals are life-giving! They were scored, leveled elements for many years in CoP too. Oh those days when Mao Asada would hilariously be given a Level 1 on her Spirals, despite being the best in the field on them.

 

[Skatesocs]

I didn't mean to say spirals aren't nice lol, and of course they were scored. I'm just saying they still had calls (which we can disagree with) and GOE (which we can disagree with). For example, I think what postmodern CanadianSkaterGuy is saying is that Slutskaya should be getting a higher level but not high GOE. But I think what postmodern you are saying is that Kwan should be getting higher GOE even if not level - and you two are bickering about it

Asada's spiral calls are tragic lol. Still, we can all agree her 2010 Nationals Liebestraume spiral is one of the best ones ever.

Also, yeah, I think Kwan's spiral was better. Slutskaya may have attempted more difficult things, but Kwan's quality should easily exceed that. It's the jumps that have me place Slutskaya ahead in the SP.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Slutskaya should have received both a lower level call and lower GOE compared to Kwan, in my book.

At best Slutskaya has 3 features: arabesque position hitting at least a 45 degree angle and held for 2 seconds, x2, and a "difficult turn" in the sequence.
Kwan has 4 features: arabesque position hitting at least a 45 degree angle and held for 2 seconds, x2, edge change with enough duration of spiral before and after, and multiple quick Y positions.

 

[Skatesocs]

Slutskaya should have received both a lower level call and lower GOE compared to Kwan, in my book.

At best Slutskaya has 3 features: arabesque position hitting at least a 45 degree angle and held for 2 seconds, x2, and a "difficult turn" in the sequence.
Kwan has 4 features: arabesque position hitting at least a 45 degree angle and held for 2 seconds, x2, edge change with enough duration of spiral before and after, and multiple quick Y positions.

There we are! Now we can wait for him to argue on the same ground as you! See, this one thing I'll give CoP. It forces a common ground, from which you can generate discussion and disagreement.

 

[4everchan]

but really, why look at 2002 with COP point of view when the rules were so different??? I don't get it. There is no common ground on doing this as the skaters themselves didn't base their planned content based on IJS...

 

[Skatesocs]

but really, why look at 2002 with COP point of view when the rules were so different??? I don't get it. There is no common ground on doing this as the skaters themselves didn't base their planned content based on IJS...

I don't see how what you're saying is a representation of what I'm saying. But that's okay.

 

[4everchan]

I don't see how what you're saying is a representation of what I'm saying. But that's okay.

i was looking at this thread quickly as there are a full 7 pages of it... and then people brought CoP in this... i am just wondering why that would make any sense... i didn't quote any one in particular : it was an overall statement. Judging 6.0 events with IJS is weird, and that's putting it lightly. But yeah... ok... :handw:

 

[Baron Vladimir]

I don't, simply because you did not beat your top competitors under 6.0 with a fall. I think some people look back at these programs with COP eyes, in which a fall doesn't take you out of contention.

In recent years of COP a fall is more and more punished with every year. Of course, if fall happened on a quad in the field where everybody jump triples, that may be a different 'game'. If I am a judge in 6.0 system i would punish a programme with a fall on a triple both in first and the second mark, so i agree with the final placement in SLC Olympics. And even in the COP system we have today a fall of a jump is the one that most affect exactly the 'artistic' part of components.

 

[Mathman]

This is irrelevant to how the Olympics should be judged, but Slutskaya winning the GPF that season was a total joke. She didn't even skate better technically in their last LP's and yet 4/7 judges still put her ahead because of "momentum" and bias, while the other judges deservedly had her in 3rd. Slutskaya shouldn't have won the GPF the previous season either.

It always seemed to me that in those days the ISU used the Grand Prix Final as a sort of consolation prize for the skater who they were not going to give the big prize to. Once Irina was gifted the GP Final, I was pretty sure that they were reserving the Olympics for Michelle -- just as Michelle won the Worlds Championships in the two previous years after finishing second in the GP. (Unfortunately, Michelle did not hold up her end of the deal in the Olympic LP )

(Maybe this is too cynical?)

 

[Skatesocs]

Er just to continue the conversation... Does anybody think Slutskaya shouldn't have won worlds either? I thought Suguri should have.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Er just to continue the conversation... Does anybody think Slutskaya shouldn't have won worlds either? I thought Suguri should have.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I think Irina was in great form at Worlds (despite not doing a 3-3). Her SP (f)lip was one of the biggest I've ever seen a woman do, and all her jumps were bigger and more in control than at SLC.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Slutskaya should have received both a lower level call and lower GOE compared to Kwan, in my book.

At best Slutskaya has 3 features: arabesque position hitting at least a 45 degree angle and held for 2 seconds, x2, and a "difficult turn" in the sequence.
Kwan has 4 features: arabesque position hitting at least a 45 degree angle and held for 2 seconds, x2, edge change with enough duration of spiral before and after, and multiple quick Y positions.

Under an IJS-type system, those "multiple quick Y positions" likely wouldn’t get any level credit because a position would probably need to be hit and held for a minimum of at least 2 seconds (heck, even 1 second); a Y-kick up and a Y spiral held for a split second, wouldn't add any base value. Also, in what world does doing the same feature twice count as an additional feature?! Kwan's held back spiral the position also wasn't hit for a full 2 seconds so she might not have even gotten credit for that. I also disagree that Kwan had enough duration of her RFO spiral after the edge change.

Levels/GOE can be at anyone's discretion too, and just as you throw out random levels and features to support your argument, anybody can.

I could say that Slutskaya had at least 1/3 arm/upper body movements throughout the spiral sequence which could have been a level (similar to how it is a level feature for footwork). Slutskaya also had spirals on both feet - as in spirals with a distinct hold and not just the quick Y spirals on Kwan’s left foot. Kwan might have even been marked down for not displaying any sufficiently held spiral on her left foot, if that were a requirement -- to get maximum base value on a spiral sequence, the ability to show a sufficiently held spiral on each foot should be par for the course, you'd think!

Slutskaya's spiral sequence was also more balanced in terms of their distribution in the pattern (forward spirals for 3 + 2 seconds, backwards spiral for 3 seconds whereas Kwan’s spiral sequence was mostly the change spiral (7 second forward spiral and a <2 seconds backwards spiral) -- a more balanced sequence for Kwan would have had a backwards moving spiral last longer instead of that pointless Y kick-up that looked rushed and wasn't even held fully extended.

As far as other qualities, Irina's deep RBO entrance was unusual/creative in that not many spiral sequences start with the skater starting backwards, and she did the turn off her final back spiral to show that she still had control (certainly if there were GOE bullets for creativity, Slutskaya's sequence would have had it in spades - and it was far riskier than Kwan's). Kwan showed control in turning from the inside edge to the outside edge, but Slutskaya entering on a backwards edge (which was deeper than Kwan's inside edge) was more difficult to maintain speed - especially with doing a turn to do her next spiral instead of a change of edge which is much easier.

Few can do a spiral sequence with extension and expression that Kwan had (and as I said, her expression and projection were better than Slutskaya's), but the pattern Kwan did was not difficult compared to Slutskaya's much riskier sequence. Kwan probably would have beaten Slutskaya on GOE because the spiral was presented better but I think Slutskaya would have been credited with higher difficulty. It's hard to say because people can pick and choose the levels/GOE bullets that suit them - and both women would have modified their sequences to accomodate for specific level requirements anyways (indeed Slutskaya's spiral sequence a couple years later was far more complex than her 2002 SP sequence to meet the demands at that time).

 

[Blades of Passion]

I have Slutskaya 3rd at Worlds, she had the same issue of deficient artistry and not enough tech to compensate. It's criminal how she received higher marks for presentation than Kwan skating clean and Suguri giving the best performance of her career.

but really, why look at 2002 with COP point of view when the rules were so different??? I don't get it. There is no common ground on doing this as the skaters themselves didn't base their planned content based on IJS...

Yes, but there was still an understanding of difficulty/quality and judges were still comparing the elements. People had a general idea of what things were worth, it was just never given a concrete number. Everyone knew Kwan and Cohen had the best spiral sequences in the world. An individual judge was supposed to be assessing programs in a similar way to IJS, but the "base values" and "GOE" were more instinctual, and it was about a holistic assessment, rather than trying to assign numbers to just individual elements.

Those multiple quick Y positions wouldn’t get any level credit because they were even held for a second. Also doing the same feature twice wouldn’t get a level either.

They certainly could if that's what the rules were written as. Those features were valued and thus the rules should reflect it; they are in my code for spiral sequences that I linked. A well extended arabesque position counts twice when held in two positions or when held in the same position for at least 4 seconds. Multiple quick changes of position, as with Kwan's high leg lifts, are also a feature.

For example Slutskaya has arm movements and her spirals were balanced in terms of their hold length and distribution in the pattern

Again her arm movements, which she didn't have on her first spiral and didn't have more of than Kwan, were nothing special. I would not call her sequence particularly "balanced" either. She only does a forward spiral for 2 seconds and in her weakest position. Holding every position for equal amounts of time or doing an equal amount forwards/backwards are not things that deserve to be considered for extra levels anyway. That's just a trivial, red-tape kind of consideration. Those kinds of rules make skating too mechanical and should be avoided.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I have Slutskaya 3rd at Worlds, she had the same issue of deficient artistry and not enough tech to compensate. It's criminal how she received higher marks for presentation than Kwan skating clean and Suguri giving the best performance of her career.



Yes, but there was still an understanding of difficulty/quality and judges were still comparing the elements. People had a general idea of what things were worth, it was just never given a concrete number. Everyone knew Kwan and Cohen had the best spiral sequences in the world. An individual judge was supposed to be assessing programs in a similar way to IJS, but the "base values" and "GOE" were more instinctual, and it was about a holistic assessment, rather than trying to assign numbers to just individual elements.



They certainly could if that's what the rules were written as. Those features were valued and thus the rules should reflect it; they are in my code for spiral sequences that I linked. A well extended arabesque position counts twice when held in two positions or when held in the same position for at least 4 seconds. Multiple quick changes of position, as with Kwan's high leg lifts, are also a feature.



Again her arm movements, which she didn't have on her first spiral and didn't have more of than Kwan, were nothing special. I would not call her sequence particularly "balanced" either. She only does a forward spiral for 2 seconds and in her weakest position. Holding every position for equal amounts of time or doing an equal amount forwards/backwards are not things that deserve to be considered for extra levels anyway. That's just a trivial, red-tape kind of consideration. Those kinds of rules make skating too mechanical and should be avoided.

How is a Y-leg kick a change of position? Wow, all you have to do is kick up a couple times and you get a level feature? Sweet! Eteri's gals would be loving that.