2020-21 U.S. Men's Figure Skating

[karne]

To add (now that I'm on lunch and on my laptop not my phone), I think Nathan's artistry is polarising because of the actions of the USFS.

Even the most die-hard Nathan fan has to admit that he has been the beneficiary of an unprecedented level of propaganda orchestrated by USFS, attempting to portray him as the greatest artist of all time. The constant yapping about the ballet training, the comparisons to famous ballet dancers, and let's not even get started on Nathan's FS at Nationals this year being scored higher in PCS than Jason's.

The thing was, especially when he first hit the scene, he really wasn't that great. There was practically no choreography, a lot of skate-skate-jump, and not a single hint of that ballet training showing through. Of course he has improved since then, but the USFS narrative that he was the greatest artist ever started while his standard tactic was "adding another quad? throw out more choreo!". Which was also particularly rankling given other skaters who could land quads were not being given the same leniency on the second mark.

I still don't think Nathan is a 90+ skater. But I also think there are only two men in the world who are - and only when they are on. Nathan has improved quite a lot in the last couple of years - the problem was that it was forced down our throats that his starting point was higher than it really was. And when USFS are trying to do stupid things like claim Nathan is a better PCS skater than Jason - they're going to cause a backlash.

 

[Mamamiia]

To add (now that I'm on lunch and on my laptop not my phone), I think Nathan's artistry is polarising because of the actions of the USFS.

Even the most die-hard Nathan fan has to admit that he has been the beneficiary of an unprecedented level of propaganda orchestrated by USFS, attempting to portray him as the greatest artist of all time. The constant yapping about the ballet training, the comparisons to famous ballet dancers, and let's not even get started on Nathan's FS at Nationals this year being scored higher in PCS than Jason's.

The thing was, especially when he first hit the scene, he really wasn't that great. There was practically no choreography, a lot of skate-skate-jump, and not a single hint of that ballet training showing through. Of course he has improved since then, but the USFS narrative that he was the greatest artist ever started while his standard tactic was "adding another quad? throw out more choreo!". Which was also particularly rankling given other skaters who could land quads were not being given the same leniency on the second mark.

I still don't think Nathan is a 90+ skater. But I also think there are only two men in the world who are - and only when they are on. Nathan has improved quite a lot in the last couple of years - the problem was that it was forced down our throats that his starting point was higher than it really was. And when USFS are trying to do stupid things like claim Nathan is a better PCS skater than Jason - they're going to cause a backlash.

You must realize those are all your opinions, subjectively? Your tone makes them all sound like fact. Nathan had years of ballet training is fact, you don't see it in his skating is your opinion.
I don't remember "USFS, attempting to portray him as the greatest artist of all time", didn't he lose to Adam Rippon and Max Aron with 4 quads?

 

[shine]

I didn't say that Nathan's artistry is more difficult to perceive.

Actually I would argue that it is. For example, personally I completely understand why many would consider Jason to be more artistic than Nathan and objectively I can fully comprehend Jason's appeal, even if I don't respond emotionally to it the same way many others do. But it's pretty clear to me that those who usually claim that they find Nathan lacking artistically simply don't have the slightest idea why his artistry would appeal to people (e.g. 2015 Jr Worlds FS and karne's post above) And I mean, I don't even know where to start if you can't see the artistry and ballet training in Le Corsaire (if that's the season that you think he "hit the scene" even though he did also have a junior career prior to that). But whatever. I'm okay with my taste not being for everyone. After all, I live in a world where Beyonce is a billionaire and Yuja Wang makes only a tiny, tiny fraction of what she makes

 

[readernick]

Actually I would argue that it is. For example, personally I completely understand why many would consider Jason to be more artistic than Nathan and objectively I can fully comprehend Jason's appeal, even if I don't respond emotionally to it the same way many others do. But it's pretty clear to me that those who usually claim that they find Nathan lacking artistically simply don't have the slightest idea why his artistry would appeal to people (e.g. 2015 Jr Worlds FS and karne's post above

I do think most people understand Nathan's cool appeal now even if they didn't understand his appeal in 2015. I think most people enjoy Nathan's SPs because they tend top be high energy and fun. The people who claim he has no artistry probably haven't actually watched him since 2015/2016 when his focus on quads did dim his performance quality. Personally, I have never been blown away by Nathan's performances. I appreciate his technical and his performance skills and think his stability is incredible. I am not confused by people who love him. I have just never been emotionally moved by his performance (likely how you feel about Jason). I have been emotionally blown away by Jason ( always beautiful even when technically not doing well), Yuzuru ( perhaps the most amazing for me when he is on, and an artistic zero for me on other days.. a hot and cold genius that one) and my favorite Shoma who could make me love any program because of his incredible commitment. Honestly, I am very much an introvert so I comprehend Nathan's cool energy. I may just more personally drawn toward dynamism and over the board commitment when watching men's skating. Either is fine, and most people can appreciate both even if they only love one. The people who can't are really just haters.

 

[Seren]

I think that the other thing to remember is that skaters may be more or less “artistic” in a given skate than another. Nathan’s Olympic FP was an athletic triumph but was a lot of skate-skate-jump. He looked like a man on a mission. Yuzuru who I love skated an impressive FP at the GPF last year in terms of quads but the skate was otherwise lacking his usual performance and choreography quality. And Jason’s LP at 2018 nationals is still painful to watch, he looked so lost. Does that mean these skaters aren’t artistic? No, it just means skating is hard and it’s hard to be perfect all the time.

(so says the person who tripped on a single lutz last Sunday).

 

[Flying Feijoa]

I generally don't read NBC media or watch their broadcasts (geoblock plus Weir/Lipinski are annoying), but I remember CBC coverage of the 2017 Rostelecom Cup where Carol Lane got confused with the facts and thought Nathan only started taking ballet classes/working on artistry after his senior debut ('stealing from Patrick Chan' being an infamous but tongue-in-cheek remark). Kurt Browning just had an air of pleasant surprise, as though he was expecting the non-jump elements to be much worse than they turned out.

Based on the Canadian media, who didn't really have anyone to push (Chan was already too far behind technically by then), this supports Karne's point that Nathan's presentation wasn't so evident (to the CBC folks at least) in the first year. However, they're also subject to preconceived biases - Kurt seemed to have already assumed beforehand that someone with that sort of planned content would be a mere jumping bean. But to his credit, he was frank about what he saw.

Nathan's Polovtsian Dances was really front-loaded so obviously not much dancing going on there, but there was definitely more than a hint of ballet training in the step sequence (just the Scheheradaze-in-your-face type of ballet). The period between doing 1 quad and 6 quads per LP (2015?-2018) is when he neglected transitions and skating skills a bit (and yeah, Olympic year was political), but both before and afterwards was/is fine.

I think both Nathan and Jason are 90+ skaters now I can't distinguish the upper end of the scale so can't say who's better unless someone obviously muffs up on the day.

 

[Blades of Passion]

There's no point in having PCS anymore if people think Nathan Chen deserves almost the highest score possible in that area. Give it a rest about his "ballet training". Put him next to actual top ballet dancer and then compare. That will tell you what PCS he deserves in comparison. At least in terms of form anyway; there's so much more to artistry (where he still lags behind as well).

 

[Flying Feijoa]

There's no point in having PCS anymore if people think Nathan Chen deserves almost the highest score possible in that area. Give it a rest about his "ballet training". Put him next to actual top ballet dancer and then compare. That will tell you what PCS he deserves in comparison. At least in terms of form anyway; there's so much more to artistry (where he still lags behind as well).

Apples to oranges though. Jason Brown wouldn't compare favourable with a ballet dancer either because of his lumbar lordosis. Plus, skating skills, transitions and speed aren't applicable to ballet dancers, but are part of PCS. And conformation to balletic form is not a criteria for PCS scoring, otherwise Lambiel, Aymoz, Fernandez and Hanyu would score poorly on those grounds. At least Brown and Chen point their feet and turn out their free leg.

 

[1111bm]

The thing was, especially when he first hit the scene, he really wasn't that great. There was practically no choreography, a lot of skate-skate-jump, and not a single hint of that ballet training showing through

Um, when he first hit the scene, and I assume you mean as a senior internationally (?), he did his Le Corsaire SP. Are you seriously arguing that one didn't have a hint of ballet training showing through??

 

[Blades of Passion]

There are different styles, but when people claim Nathan deserves top PCS because of "ballet training", well...

And Chen has yet to do anything nearly as charming as Fernandez's 2016 or 2013 programs. Or anything as emotional moving as Brown's "The Piano" or Rippon's "Birds". Or something as outre as what we saw from Takahashi/Lambiel in their day. Or something as passionate and layered as Hanyu's best work. What, exactly, is Chen doing of great artistic value? The past two seasons he just tries to throw in some random "breakdance-esque" movement into the end of his LP's as some kind of display of artistry. It's quite superficial.

 

[1111bm]

There's no point in having PCS anymore if people think Nathan Chen deserves almost the highest score possible in that area. Give it a rest about his "ballet training". Put him next to actual top ballet dancer and then compare. That will tell you what PCS he deserves in comparison. At least in terms of form anyway; there's so much more to artistry (where he still lags behind as well).

Totally nonsensical argument. Why on earth would one compare the skills of a figure skater to a ballet dancer?? If we did that to assess PCS and only looked at certain aspects/skills, literally every skater would rank way lower than they currently do. But yeah, agreeing with Flying Feijoa here, let's then also judge the ballet dancer by his glide, edge precision etc. Pretty sure he won't stack up too well compared to actual skaters.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Totally nonsensical argument. Why on earth would one compare the skills of a figure skater to a ballet dancer??

Predictable straw-man response. There are qualities that are very translatable between the two. The ability to stretch, to move the limbs fluidly, the carriage of the body, the ability to hold positions. Chen does not measure up. Nor does he do much else that qualifies as any sort of top-notch artistry or refinement of movement.

 

[elbkup]

Nathan’s “artistry” was more evident to me with his most recent ISP skates but not sure how much this has to do with his music choices this year (which I like) or the virtual nature of the competition. Jason still ranks above him in PCS in my view. Though this is the US Men’s thread I will dare to mention Kolyada’s “White Ghost” this season which is stunning!! Will be exciting and great viewing when these three come up against each other this season!

 

[FayD]

Personally, I don't like to call skaters "artistic". The whole concept of artistry in skating seems way too vague and subjective, way too often people refer to programs as artistic because they just like the music and costume or hail a skater as an artist because they enjoy their personality. Those are valid opinions to have but not an argument for scoring. I feel we should talk about in more concrete terms, as in: Is the skater committed to the performance? Are they engaging with the audience? Are they emoting with their face or using their upper body to interpret the music? Are they hitting the musical accents, expressing the nuances of the music? If it's character-driven piece, are they portraying the character convincingly? Do their elements blend together effortlessly in a coherent program? Etc, etc.

As for Nate, I think (and seeing him live confirmed my impression) that he's very charismatic and his presence on the ice is very energetic, and he uses his upper body effectively to interpret faster and more dynamic music. His projection has improved a lot and I genuinely think he deserves high marks for Performance. His Interpretation is what needs more work, in my opinion, as I said, he works well with his upper body, but a little more attention to detail and musical accents is needed. This is what kinda worries me about his new FS, because this kind of music demands a lot of subtlety and attention to the music. His programs tend to work better when they use fast, dynamic music, preferably with lyrics, and have a crowd pleasing element, so this quiet music could be a bit of a challenge, but also it could help him improve in this area, so I guess we'll see.

 

[Flying Feijoa]

Personally, I don't like to call skaters "artistic". The whole concept of artistry in skating seems way too vague and subjective, way too often people refer to programs as artistic because they just like the music and costume or hail a skater as an artist because they enjoy their personality. Those are valid opinions to have but not an argument for scoring.

Yeah. Also, PCS isn't equivalent to artistry. I think we discussed this in some other thread (can't remember the name, sorry) and someone pointed out that the current judging system mostly assesses technical stuff, because the half that is PCS includes categories like skating skills and transitions which can be entirely independent from any sort of dancing/interpretation. So you could be an emotionless machine and still get decent PCS based on those 2-3 technical categories.
ETA: I don't think any current top US man is an emotionless machine, though!

 

[ali0125]

There's no point in having PCS anymore if people think Nathan Chen deserves almost the highest score possible in that area. Give it a rest about his "ballet training". Put him next to actual top ballet dancer and then compare. That will tell you what PCS he deserves in comparison. At least in terms of form anyway; there's so much more to artistry (where he still lags behind as well).

I sort of agree and disagree with this statement Nathan is very artistic, and can feel and interpret music very well (and has great music taste too). However, his SS really bring down the overall performance - those ugly crossovers (sorry about the wording), which is a real shame. And his PCS is just another ISU ridiculous PCS normal.

 

[kolyadafan2002]

I found Nathan really empty and boring until I watched him live. live he just is so much better, it feels more charismatic. The jumps are better, the skating is better - its the only way to really appreciate his flow across the ice. I don't think the camera angles do his style of skating justice.

For instance, Javier performed Man a la mancha at the Olympics and later at the Japan open. Choreographically, they were the same but the Olympics had much better camera angles for him - I found myself bored watching him at the japan open.

I think Chen and Hanyu were both overscored last GPF in PCS. Hanyu just wasn't on and I didn't see the same performance (I preferred his late 2018 Origin). Chen was great, but honestly neither of them compared to Kevin Aymoz for me. (although Hanyu and Chen had superior SS the rest of the factors I'd have put Kevin ahead in at this competition).

Is Nathan chen a skater deserving of more PCS than Jason Brown? For me no, unless Jason makes mistakes.
Is Nathan deserving of PCS in the 90s? For me yes. 98/99 is Pratrick Chan territory, but I have no problem with Nathan Chen getting 92-95.

 

[Flying Feijoa]

What do you mean here? I don't have interest in the rest of the discussion, so I just want to know this part.

The choreo in ballet is fixed so if there's a linking step into technical thing (like a pirouettes or big jump) everyone playing the same role has to do the same step so it's not a point of comparison between dancers. Plus there isn't such a strict demarcation between 'element' and 'linking step', some choreographers like Ashton or Balanchine like to make giant strings of difficult steps

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Introverts Unit! (Alone! Lol!)

I think what I really meant was I dislike the idea that there is some magical-superior-artistry-sense you have to have to appreciate one skaters skating over another. Like one can only be seen by those with 'refined' sensibilities or some other nonsense.

LOL! These are your words and interpretation, based apparently on taking offense from genuine observations not meant to denigrate other fans.

As I mentioned, those who closely follow a skater from very early in their career may be able to understand and enjoy the full spectrum of that skater's talent and career better. Sure, that may not always be the case. And there are huge fans of Nathan who didn't follow his novice or junior competitions. I just feel weepy and sentimental about having seen Nathan when he was just a cute whippersnapper. So I feel extra dimensions attached to my understanding of his skating and his personality. But as you said earlier, we are all different. And I too wish to emphasize the great thing about sharing our passions and perceptions, even when we don't agree.

* Note, I came back to edit and rephrase my initial final sentence above because what I said initially shows that I too was getting my buttons pushed and being on the defensive about what seems to be misinterpretation in your bolded comments. So, I need to practice what I preached earlier about being cool and calm like Nathan, and kind like Jason! LOL!

I appreciate your kind words in your post #79 above!

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

I really appreciate your detailed answers. Unfortunately, I did not think Nathan’s 2015 FS was all that artistic, and I am not lying. and the next year, the Saint-Saens, I found completely unconvincing.

I will say Nathan has improved tremendously since then, he is much more convincing to me now and much more interesting to watch. I think going away to college was the best thing that’s ever happened to him, opened him up as a skater, as a performer, and someone I now actually look forward to seeing.

now, anyone is free to disagree with my takes, as well they probably ought, but it doesn’t mean I‘m a liar, or in denial, or blind. It just means my takes are different.

Ah, interesting. I'll have to take another look at Nathan's Saint-Saens, but if it was the season of his first senior Nationals competition, then sure, I don't think it was that compelling. Nathan was definitely in exploratory development mode at that point. Every great artist has to start somewhere and go through stages of development.

To be honest, Nathan's 2015 free program is a great example of a young artist in exploration and development. And it contains all the attributes of subtle movement nuances and musical understanding that are innate to Nathan's personality. Add to that the ongoing struggles Nathan was experiencing with the growth-related bone disease, osgood schlatter syndrome, and I'm fairly blown away by Nathan's courage and determination during that challenging time. He was fairly frustrated at that competition, because he'd made mistakes in the sp, that scotched his chances of winning or at least making the podium. Nathan was 9th in the sp and 4th in the FS. Looking at the competition and at Nathan's budding talent, if he'd performed a better sp combined with his free skate effort, he may have been able to place second behind Shoma Uno and ahead of Boyang Jin and Sota Yamamoto.

And yes, once again, I concede that due to Nathan's more interior way of expressing himself, his artistry doesn't reach out and grab every skating fan, which is fine. I learned so much myself by listening to Kurt Browning's commentary (with another Canadian anchor) of Nathan's 2015 FS at Junior Worlds. Kurt Browning and his co-host gave some great insights into the young Nathan's skating. As far back as then, Kurt was very clear-eyed and precise about Nathan's rare qualities, and about how different and unique he was as a skater. Kurt (as a former champion skater himself) noticed things about Nathan's performance that I as a humble layperson lover of figure skating, did not really pick up on. Therefore, I have Kurt to thank for opening my eyes more fully to Nathan's artistic trajectory.