The "wrong edge" call in JGP events

[Mafke]

had she stayed on feet and only double footed it or stepped out she might have actually gotten points for something that took off wrong, was wrong in the air, came down wrong and finished wrong!

Welcome to the wonderful world of COP...

 

[Mathman]

Oh, I don't know if that's such an outrage, capcomop and Mafke. The purpose of a scoring system is to determine the winner.

Suppose we have three competitors.

Skater A does a triple Lutz that is satisfactory in all phases. Score: 6.0

Skater B tries to do a triple Lutz, but slips over to the wrong edge on take-off. She tries to rotate three times in the air but only manages twice. She tries to land on a smooth BO landing edge, but lands on two feet and totters around for a while to regain her balance.

The CoP says, sorry, sister, that was absolutely atrocious. You only get credit for two revolutions, not three, because two is all you did. And because of the other errors we will also take away most of the value even for a double. We won't even give you 1 point for that mess.

Score: 0.9

Skater C (me) clings in terror to the boards for four minutes, finally summoning up the courage to push off in a snow plow, and immediately collapses in a heap. The Zamboni has to come out and carry me back.

Score: 0.

Final standings:

Skater A, 6.0 (gold)
Skater B, 0.9 (silver)
Me, 0.0 (bronze)

Boy, if only skater B had fallen at the end she would have ended up with -0.1 and I would have got silver!

Edited to add: Which, by the way, is exactly how I felt watching the 2002 Olympics, when Irina was teetering and tottering trying to stay upright on her triple flip. That was the Olympic gold medal, right there.

If Irina topples over, Michelle wins the gold. If Irina manages somehow to keep her feet, it's Sarah.)

 

[GoldMedalist]

Well, imho, you are lucky even to get any credit for your 'flutz' if you already got credit for a 'flip' in your program. Since you are basically doing two 'flip's thus the 2nd one should be nullifiied.

No, you're not basically doing two Flips.

A Flip goes off of some kind of motion where the blade was turning - mohawk, three-turn, half-loop.

A Lutz goes off of a blade that has been held in a line.

A flutz is not a Flip and a lip is not a Lutz.

 

[roundboypete]

I did two jumps in my LP skate,
My flip came early and my Lutz came late!
The poor tech caller had quite a fit
With my flippy Lutz and my lutzy flip!

I got 6 points for my lovely flutz
And the judges said, this boy's got guts!
And 8 point 8 for my lip/lip SEQ,
And the judges said, this boy's unique!

So skaters all, whether young or old,
If you want to skate for Olympic gold
Just lip your flip and flutz your Lutz
And you'll leave all the others just eatin' your dust!

sha-boom boom

 

[hockeyfan228]

Can i just clairfy whether your last sentance is just being sarcastic?

Ant

Busted!

 

[Mafke]

No, you're not basically doing two Flips.

A Flip goes off of some kind of motion where the blade was turning - mohawk, three-turn, half-loop.

A Lutz goes off of a blade that has been held in a line.

A flutz is not a Flip and a lip is not a Lutz.

Again, this is a consequence of judging down to what the audience can see (and what young skaters can feel).
As explained by a judge on another forum, younger skaters first learning jumps are often unaware of which edge they are on most of the time. Therefore, the traditional entries to the different jumps are meant to facilitate the skater being on the right edge and aren't meant to define the jump at all and theoretically once the skater is more edge aware could use different kinds of set ups (as long as the edge is right at the moment of take off).
What's happened now is that the traditional set-ups are being incorporated into the definition of the jump because that's something audiences can see.
I'd love to see a skater who can lutz and flutz (a la Hughes) call the flutz a "flip from a backward outside inside change of edge".

 

[antmanb]

Oh, I don't know if that's such an outrage, capcomop and Mafke. The purpose of a scoring system is to determine the winner.

Suppose we have three competitors.

Skater A does a triple Lutz that is satisfactory in all phases. Score: 6.0

Skater B tries to do a triple Lutz, but slips over to the wrong edge on take-off. She tries to rotate three times in the air but only manages twice. She tries to land on a smooth BO landing edge, but lands on two feet and totters around for a while to regain her balance.

The CoP says, sorry, sister, that was absolutely atrocious. You only get credit for two revolutions, not three, because two is all you did. And because of the other errors we will also take away most of the value even for a double. We won't even give you 1 point for that mess.

Score: 0.9

I think it is very bad - a skater basically does nothing right in the jump - not the prep edge, not the take off, not the air position and not the landing but she still gets 0.9 points. Yet a skater who completes a clean satisfactory single axel comes out with 0.8 points? Why is a totally flawed double worth more than a satisfactory single axel? Why is it worth more than a satisfactorily completed single lutz? A completely flawed double should not be worth more than a base level single of the same jump i don't think.

Ant

 

[antmanb]

I did two jumps in my LP skate,
My flip came early and my Lutz came late!
The poor tech caller had quite a fit
With my flippy Lutz and my lutzy flip!

I got 6 points for my lovely flutz
And the judges said, this boy's got guts!
And 8 point 8 for my lip/lip SEQ,
And the judges said, this boy's unique!

So skaters all, whether young or old,
If you want to skate for Olympic gold
Just lip your flip and flutz your Lutz
And you'll leave all the others just eatin' your dust!

sha-boom boom

:chorus::chorus:

That was excellent!

Ant

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

No, you're not basically doing two Flips.

A Flip goes off of some kind of motion where the blade was turning - mohawk, three-turn, half-loop.

A Lutz goes off of a blade that has been held in a line.

A flutz is not a Flip and a lip is not a Lutz.

If it's not a Flip and it does not satisfy the definition of a Lutz, is it legal enough to be scored? There is no definition listed for a Flutz.

Joe

 

[capcomop]

Oh, I don't know if that's such an outrage, capcomop and Mafke. The purpose of a scoring system is to determine the winner.

Suppose we have three competitors.

Skater A does a triple Lutz that is satisfactory in all phases. Score: 6.0

Skater B tries to do a triple Lutz, but slips over to the wrong edge on take-off. She tries to rotate three times in the air but only manages twice. She tries to land on a smooth BO landing edge, but lands on two feet and totters around for a while to regain her balance.

The CoP says, sorry, sister, that was absolutely atrocious. You only get credit for two revolutions, not three, because two is all you did. And because of the other errors we will also take away most of the value even for a double. We won't even give you 1 point for that mess.

Score: 0.9

Skater C (me) clings in terror to the boards for four minutes, finally summoning up the courage to push off in a snow plow, and immediately collapses in a heap. The Zamboni has to come out and carry me back.

Score: 0.

QUOTE]

Actually under CoP you might get some points for your snowplow, if it had a difficult entry or you managed a twist of the body! After all you did start the snowplow correctly and complete the trick, it was only the ending that failed. Isn't that worth something?

 

[hockeyfan228]

Actually under CoP you might get some points for your snowplow, if it had a difficult entry or you managed a twist of the body! After all you did start the snowplow correctly and complete the trick, it was only the ending that failed. Isn't that worth something?

I'm fairly certain that GOE would be zero in that case, but the transitions score would be 8.5.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Actually under CoP you might get some points for your snowplow, if it had a difficult entry or you managed a twist of the body! After all you did start the snowplow correctly and complete the trick, it was only the ending that failed. Isn't that worth something?

No! absolutely nothing! A trick is a trick is a trick. Why give even partial credit when others have done the trick successfully and completely? I would call that cheating to give a wrong edge points.

I think points in the CoP are way out of line with what sport is all about.

Joe

 

[GoldMedalist]

The points CoP gives out is IN line with what many sports have been doing for some time. :scratch:

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

The points CoP gives out is IN line with what many sports have been doing for some time. :scratch:

I will agree to disagree with a blank statement.

 

[dwiggin3]

this is a hard one to call....a skater who has history of occasionally flutzing but is known to be working hard on securing the proper edge and a skater who flutz's and doesn't do anything about it.

If we propose that a judge is to give a greater -GOE score to the skater who "always flutz's" and a somewhat lesser -GOE score to the skater to only sometimes flutz's and is known to be working on it, who's going to determine what "working on the problem" really means? How do we define a skater who occasionally flutz's and is working hard to correct it and the skater who doesn't care? Whose to be the judge of the skaters personal mental intent?

While I appreciate the frustration a skater who is really is trying to fix the flutzing may suffer and I equally dislike the recklessness of the skater who doesn't care, and the sometimes unfair standards they are judged by (with regards to flutzing - the occasional flutzer may be really dinged for it and the habitual flutzer never) when it all boils down to the actual jump that was preformed, THE JUMP IS NOT A LUTZ, NOR SHOULD THE SKATER GET CREDIT FOR FLIP IF THE INTENT WAS A LUTZ. So, judge it as a lutz gone wrong - NOT A FLIP.

I don't understand the judging well, but a flutz - which was clearly meant to be a lutz gone wrong (and come one, we all know when a skater intends on a flip or a lutz) should not in the end, get the same or more points (regardless of any -GOE scores) as a equally well-preformed flip. If you intend on doing a lutz and you take off on the wrong edge and its clear you intended a lutz, then it should be downgraded to a lesser score than a clean flip....don't reward the skater with scores that suggest that the judges will accept a flutz as a flip.

Perhaps the root problem is that the well done lutz is worth more than a equally well done flip, so if you preform a poor lutz - ie, a flutz, then by virtue of the intended jump being worth more than the flip, you still get the same points as a flip. I'm all for punishing flutzing - as far as I'm concerned, it's a failed jump preformed poorly, regardless of the number of revolutions or how well it was landed.

IMO, flutz's should receive very little, if any, credit. It's not a flip if you intended on a lutz (and the opposite it true as well) - it's a lutz taken off from the wrong edge which means you've failed to learn the correct technique of the jump - and when it comes to these two jumps, the TAKEOFF EDGE is what counts.

 

[gsrossano]

The wrong edge error is just one of a host of possible errors in jumps. Got to say I don't understand the obsession with this one error. But anyway, in terms of relative value, comparing an adequate Lutz and flip (GoE of 0) with the same jumps with only a wrong edge take off (GoE of -1) you have

Lutz 6.0
Flip 5.5
Lutz wrong edge 5.0
Flip wrong edge 4.5

So a wrong edge Lutz is currently worth less than a true edge flip. Other than those who want to crucify the skater with the wrong edge, what more do you want? The skater pays for the error. Do you want to go to -2 for the wrong edge? Is the wrong edge more, less or as serious as a two footed landing (-2 GoE)? A jump with a major (more than 1/4) cheat (-2 GoE)? A fall on the landing (-3 GoE)?

Evaluating jumps (and elements) involves evaluating shades of grey. It is not a yes/no decision.

 

[dwiggin3]

The wrong edge error is just one of a host of possible errors in jumps. Got to say I don't understand the obsession with this one error.

Because the hallmark of this jump is the true BOE takeoff. If you can't get the right edge, then you've missed the point of the nature of this jump

But anyway, in terms of relative value, comparing an adequate Lutz and flip (GoE of 0) with the same jumps with only a wrong edge take off (GoE of -1) you have

utz 6.0
Flip 5.5
Lutz wrong edge 5.0
Flip wrong edge 4.5

So a wrong edge Lutz is currently worth less than a true edge flip.

Yes, thanks for pointing this out. I wasn't entirely aware of this. However, I don't think the penalty is enough for an improper edge takeoff. Not just on the Lutz, but any other jump. Secondly, how often do the judges really adhere to this rule?

Other than those who want to crucify the skater with the wrong edge, what more do you want?

A true lutz that takes off from a deep BOE. Not a cheated lutz that takes off from the flat, or one that starts off on a BOE and rolls to a BIE at the last min. I also want a nice pop into the air, quick rotation, nicely crossed feet with pointed toes, a landing with deep knees, a proper check of the jump, a flowing fee leg and a nice, long BOE on the exit. Not too much to ask eh?

The skater pays for the error.

marginally.

Do you want to go to -2 for the wrong edge?

That's better but I'd prefer a -3

Is the wrong edge more, less or as serious as a two footed landing (-2 GoE)? A jump with a major (more than 1/4) cheat (-2 GoE)? A fall on the landing (-3 GoE)?

Actually, I think its the worst of the offenders. The hallmark of the jump is the BOE takeoff. If you can't master it, you can't master the key part of the jump - what makes it so hard. People two-foot all the time, they cheat the rotation and they fall - all should be given -GOE but the takeoff edge - that's the mojo there. You fail to take off the correct edge, you fail the jump. If you have a really nice, deep, BOE going into the jump with a clean takeoff, beautiful pop ect. then I'm all for + GOE. I want the BOE - period - that's it.

I'd rather the skater fall, toe-foot or under rotate as long as the master the edge. Fixing the rest is far easier than fixing bad technique - and I can say this with personal experience. I rarely landed a 3Z but I could do a 2Z and I, my coach and just about any judge I knew would take a under-roatated, two-footed and even fallen lutz on a deep BOE and day than a landed, full-rotated, one-footed flutz

Evaluating jumps (and elements) involves evaluating shades of grey. It is not a yes/no decision.

Yes, I agree however, when a skater violates the basic tenants of a jump and taking off the wrong edge is no more basic of a tenant to a jump, then they've failed to master the jump at all. If we get into this valuing shades of gray, then we'll have skaters who manage to find a way to get credit for an axle even if they are not facing forward when taking off, or getting credit for a loop with is almost fully rotated 1 rotation on the ice before taking off (this already happens) ect. It's a slippery slope.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

The wrong edge error is just one of a host of possible errors in jumps. Got to say I don't understand the obsession with this one error.

Evaluating jumps (and elements) involves evaluating shades of grey. It is not a yes/no decision.

The obsession is that it is a jump that can be corrected and that is not happening by some skaters who flaunt it because of the inane evaluation of going against a definition. To do it concsiously as the case seems to be, is to avoid a difficulty.

My arguments against the Flutz where the mistake is being judged separately with a range of minuses is ridiculous. If a jump is underrotated - ZAP - over and out. No matter if a World Champion does it. The penalty is severe! It is then not judged by the amount of underrotation. It is judged by a different rotated jump. The number of competed air turns is decided by definition.

Joe

 

[gsrossano]

Yes, I agree however, when a skater violates the basic tenants of a jump and taking off the wrong edge is no more basic of a tenant to a jump, then they've failed to master the jump at all. If we get into this valuing shades of gray, then we'll have skaters who manage to find a way to get credit for an axle even if they are not facing forward when taking off, or getting credit for a loop with is almost fully rotated 1 rotation on the ice before taking off (this already happens) ect. It's a slippery slope.

The edge of the takeoff is only one of several basic aspects of a jump. If you go to -3 for the wrong edge error, then you have to go to -3 for every error which violates a basic aspect of a jump, which is pretty much every error. I view that as excessively harsh, and I think most judges, coaches and competitors feel likewise.

To focus only on the wrong edge error because the edge defines the name of the jump is obsessively pedantic. The skater took off, they rotated three times, they landed. They deserve some amount of credit, and certainly more credit than if they had fallen (which also gets the GoE of -3 you would like to give the wrong edge error).

As for your question about how often the wrong edge reduction in GoE is taken -- based on the competitions I have judged this season and the protocols I have looked at I would say with little exception every time the Technical panel has called it. And sometimes even when the Technical Panel hasn't called it.

(And it's a slippery slope when the ice isn't flat.)

 

[gsrossano]

The obsession is that it is a jump that can be corrected and that is not happening by some skaters who flaunt it because of the inane evaluation of going against a definition. To do it concsiously as the case seems to be, is to avoid a difficulty.Joe

We can't judge intention, or motivation, or flaunting, or if they are capable of correcting it, or not capable of correcting it, or why. We can only judge what we see in the moment. We can only judge what they do on that one execution of the jump.

If there is a little change of edge at the last instant of the take off I go down -1. If they switch edge and ride it for three feet I go down -2. Seems like plenty of punishment for me.

We all know when they are intending a Lutz and when they are intending a flip. And if they switch the edge we all know they didn't fully succeed. The ISU considered having the wrong edge Lutz called as a flip, and then if the skater ended up with 3-4 flips in the program, the excess would be stared out (no points). But they decided that was too harsh, and I have no problem with that.

And on a related note (added as an edit) ...

Another reason I can't get too inflamed about the wrong edge error is that the value given a flip and Lutz are not commensurate with their true relative difficulty. A true triple Lutz on a clean BO edge is a lot more difficult than a flip. Far more difficult than the extra 0.5 points (extra 10%) that it receives. If the flip and the Lutz had realistic point values, the points for a Lutz would be much greater than for a flip, and then harshly penalizing the wrong edge error in the Lutz would be justified.

But the Lutz gets only a minor point increase over the flip (0.5 fora triple, 0.2 for a double and 0.1 for a single) so in my mind having the wrong edge be a minor error is commensurate with the only minor reward for doing a clean Lutz over a clean flip.