The "wrong edge" call in JGP events | Page 7 | Golden Skate

The "wrong edge" call in JGP events

If you attempt that fourth down as a running play/pass and fail you get no points. Even in that case, you've put the other team at a disadvantage, because they now have to go 3/4 of the way down the field to score.
Field position is nice. No points.
But you have gotten close enough for a field goal, which gives you half credit, and the odds of making the field goal are very great.
You get three points for kicking the field goal. 0 points for getting close enough that it is likely you will be able to make the field goal on the next play.

Again, I'm not saying this is good or bad. Just a different way to look at what scoring means.

Hockey is an even better example. No points for having more shots on goal than the other team. No points for having more power plays than the other team. No points for making a nifty pass or an effective check. 1 point for putting the puck in the net.

Not saying this a good or a bad way to run a hockey game, or that figure skating ought to follow this model. (In fact, that's what I hate about hockey and soccer -- one team can thoroughly outplay another, yet come away with nothing.)
 
Should a flawed triple lutz really be worth more than a superior triple toe-loop?

I can't speak from personal experience when it comes to triples (or doubles), but I would say that a single flutz is enough more difficult than a good single toe loop that I wouldn't have a problem with it being worth more. Of course, the way the scale of values is set up, a +1 toe loop, single or double, is worth more than a -1 lutz.

Suppose skater A goes out and lands a double axel and one triple each of toe-loop, salchow, loop and flip. Skater B goes out and lands exactly the same content as skater B but attempts a triple lutz. She sets up on a straightline entry skating forward, executes a LFI mohawk, crosses left foot over right directly onto an inside edge holds the inside edge, rocks over to a very shallow outside edge, kicks her picking leg high into the air behind her pushing her onto a deep inside edge that is held for a few feet, picks in and rotates three times and lands.

What exactly has skater B shown she can do that skater A can't?

A fifth triple, which shows the stamina to perform six (including the double axel) difficult jumps during the program whereas A has only done five. If you want to consider that jump a flip, then the ability to do a flip both from a more standard setup and also from a somewhat more difficult approach that makes it more lutz-like even if you don't quite consider it a lutz.

Of course A would have the option of repeating one of her other triples. If it were the flip, and if she earned 0 or positive GOE, she'd end up with more jump points for that jump, and thus overall, than B would with a negative-GOE lutz.
 
It's not about hard or easy or grown up or not grown up. It's about whether or not a sport should give partial credit, for partial accomplishment. If one feels partial credit should not be given, no amount of discussion will change that opinion. Likewise for those who feel partial credit is appropriate for some errors.
That's the way it has been, and even with the Caller actually saying 'Wrong Edge' that's the way it will remain. Skater A gets a -1 for the flutz; Skater B gets a -3 for the Flutz. The jump is no longer scored - only the error is scored.

Being of the mind that partial credit is appropriate for some errors, having the reward for the correct edge equivalent to the penalty for the wrong edge, as is the case, seems fair to me. Those who do it on the wrong edge get less points. Those who do it on the correct edge get more points. What is not fair about this?
Apparently, all errors are evil but someerrors are less evil. What is wrong about making the deduction uniform like it is for a Fall? Why score the Flutz?

Also, I find it a bit ironic that those of rigid mind who insist the wrong edge take off should be scored a flip, would end up giving the skater more points even though the jump has a clear error. They hate the fact the jump has an error and consider it an outrage against sport, yet would score the element with more points by insisting it be called a flip with a correct take off edge! We need to punish the skaters for taking off on the wrong edge, so let's give them more points! That will teach 'em.
If the intened lutz (as per the skaters PPC) turns into a Flip following the definition of a flip, then it hits the Zayak Rule. That will make the penalty extremely severe.

Anyhow, I've been losing this battle for at least 10 years, and I don't expect much to become of it even with the title of this thread.

Joe
 
If a skater does get only -1 for a flutz then they still recieve 5 points - that's the same as an satisfactory loop, more than a satisfactory salchow or toeloop and the same as a +1 Toe loop. Should a flawed triple lutz really be worth more than a superior triple toe-loop?

Absolutely. It's still harder to do a Flutz than it is a Toeloop or Salchow.

Anyway, it shouldn't be a GOE deduction in the first place. Should come out of the base score. Otherwise falling on a Flutz and falling on a Lutz is worth the same.
 
I'm not sure I understand this example. Which of the two skaters do you think should win the (tech portion of the) contest?

Are you saying that the second skater's Lutz (which was not a flutz, but still not very good) should receive 0 points?

Sorry i should gave said that i think skater A four clean triples (no lutz) should win on the tech for being clean and having four good triple, Skater B had four good triple but a badly flawed lutz, so much so that i don't think it should count for anything.

Ant
 
Sorry i should gave said that i think skater A four clean triples (no lutz) should win on the tech for being clean and having four good triple, Skater B had four good triple but a badly flawed lutz, so much so that i don't think it should count for anything.
I think part of the reasoning underlying the CoP is that the ISU wants to encourage skaters to try hard stuff.

Like the (much maligned) rule that says you get more points for a fall on a quad than for a well executed triple. If the rules were different we might see skaters playing it safe in order to skate a clean program, rather than going for the gusto.
 
Sorry i should gave said that i think skater A four clean triples (no lutz) should win on the tech for being clean and having four good triple, Skater B had four good triple but a badly flawed lutz, so much so that i don't think it should count for anything.

Your example makes no sense because you are giving skater B more jumping passes than skater A. If skater B's 3Lutz was greatly flawed, then skater A doing a nice double axel puts them ahead.
 
Speak for yourself, my dear, Flutzes flourish in the Ladies Division. Flutzes are not even legal. Most red blooded males would never do a flutz. :cool:

Joe

I have no idea what you're even going on about, as usual. A Flutz is simply a flawed Lutz; of course it's legal. It's not a freaking back flip.

Males are physically stronger than females, on average. That's just how our species works. It's no big wonder why the hardest 3-revolution jump out there, the Lutz, is more commonly turned into a Flutz by females than males.
 
In passing, flutzing has been around a long time (Ive seen a reference from the early 80's) but then most skaters who had a flutz instead of a lutz didn't attempt it in competition. What's different now is the necessity of doing certain jumps, whether or not the skater can do them well (or at all).
 
Your example makes no sense because you are giving skater B more jumping passes than skater A. If skater B's 3Lutz was greatly flawed, then skater A doing a nice double axel puts them ahead.

It doesn't matter that one attempted one more jump than the other - my opinion (which last time i checked i was allowed to have!) is that the attempted jump was a bad flutz which should (again in my opinion) not add anything to the program that skater B put down, in fact attempting the jump and not succeeding with it means that skater A won.

Ant
 
That simply defies all logic.

If skater B has demonstrated everything that skater A has, PLUS something extra, they are obviously ahead.

Give two students a test of Alegebra, Geometry, Trig, and optional test of Calculus. If both students do equally well on the first three subjects, but the second student goes ahead and takes the Calc test, failing at it with only 30% of the answers correct, that second student still showed a greater ability than the first.

And, again, your example has no place in the real world. If these two skaters were actually competing, skater B's flawed Lutz would be in direct comparison to another jumping pass from skater A.
 
Apparently, all errors are evil but some errors are less evil.
In the CoP the most evil error of all is underrotation. Everything else can be forgiven.

But if you only get around 2 and 5/8th revolutions, no, absolutely not, no triple jump period, no partial credit, no points for "intention," no credt for a "fwiple" (a flawed triple), zilch, nada.

By definition you did a double jump, end of discussion.

In fact, it's even worse. By filling that box with a triple < (but you only got credit for a double), you are in trouble Zayak-wise and you can't even make it up by throwing in another jump at the end.

This seems out of whack compared to the leniency shown for others kinds of errors.

For example, if you do two solo triple Lutzes in your program, that is supposedly a violaton (one of them must be in a combination or sequence). So the judging system says, well, one of them was supposed to be in sequence, but since it wasn't we will pretend that it was and score it as a sequence, even though no attempt at a second jumo was made.

Come on, Speedy! If that's really what you want to do, then change the rule to say: It is permissible to do two solo jumps of the same kind, but in that case the second one will count only 80% of base value. Same outcome, less dishonesty.
 
Apparently, all errors are evil but someerrors are less evil. What is wrong about making the deduction uniform like it is for a Fall?

I'm not sure what you're asking.

Why don't all errors of whatever kind get exactly the same deduction (e.g., flawed takeoff should lose the same as a hand down on the landing, which should lose the same as a fall?)

Do we really need to answer that one?

Or why don't all errors of the same kind (e.g., change of edge on takeoff) always earn the same deduction?

The answer to that is that the same general category of error might occur in various degrees of severity.

For example, traveling in a spin -- sometimes a spin might curl around with the loops overlapping each other slightly to form a circle about 2 feet in diameter; another spin might be strung out along a line with each loop on the ice 6 inches away from the last one, and the exit from the spin a good 6 feet or more away from the entrance. We might describe those two spins as suffering from "minor traveling" and "severe traveling." Why should the element with the minor error be punished equally to that with the severe error?

Similarly, a skater might perform a clear outside edge setup for a lutz and just as the other toe picks into the ice rock over to the inside edge for only half a blade length. Another skater (or the same skater on a different occasion, if her technique is inconsistent) might rock over onto a deep inside edge several feet before she actually gets her toepick into the ice, or she might use the LFI mohawk and cross step approach that ant described and fail on a particularly bad occasion to get onto the outside edge at all. Why should the skater whose jump mechanics were basically correct with a tiny error be punished as severely as one whose error is blatant and severe?

Also, the final GOE reflects the element as a whole, not just the reduction for the change of edge. As of this year, if the technical panel calls a change of edge, the judges are required to give negative GOE, but they do also take the rest of the element into account.

Skater X performs a beautiful sustained LBO spiral, lowers her free leg still on a clear outside edge and counterrotates the upper body, picks, rotates neatly 3 times in the air with nice flow out, reaches back with the left foot and picks in for a double toe loop, which she performs with one arm overhead.

Did she change edge at the moment of picking in for the lutz takeoff? Probably, but if so the change was probably minor.

There are eight phases to a two-jump combination (approach, takeoff, rotation, and landing for each of the two jumps). Seven of those phases were satisfactory, good, or very good.

One phase -- the actual takeoff of the first jump -- had a small flaw but it happened to be exactly the kind of flaw that requires that the final GOE of the jump be negative if called by the tech panel.

From his angle, Judge A didn't see a change of edge at all -- looked like a fine outside edge takeoff, shallower than the spiral approach but satisfactory to meet the definition of the lutz. Because the other phases were good to very good, Judge A wants to award this combination +1 GOE and is even considering +2.

From Judge B's angle, there appears to be a small change of edge. The technical panel doesn't make the edge-change call, though. Judge B would have given +1 to this combination if she were sure the takeoff edge was correct, but because it was a borderline flutz -- not blatant, but enough to make Judge B suspicious -- she reduces the total GOE to 0.

Next competition, the same judges are sitting in the same seats and Skater X does her spiral into lutz-toe combination at the same point on the rink. Only this time she's more tired or distracted going into the lutz, and she changes edge quite significantly. No one could miss that S-shaped tracing -- however, to Judge A it looks like only a moderate change whereas from Judge B's angle it looks like one of the worst she's ever seen. The entering spiral was beautiful, though, as were the air positions and the landings of both jumps.

The technical panel calls the change of edge.

Judge B thinks, as a whole element that jump combo was worthy of at least +1 before the reduction for the change of edge. I think that was a moderate change of edge, worthy of -2 reduction. I need to give a negative GOE anyway because of the edge call. Therefore, final GOE is -1.

Judge A thinks, wow, that was a horrible flutz, definitely worthy of -3. On the other hand, the entry, air, and landing phases were all quite good. So -2 final GOE for the combination.

Later in the program skater X performs a solo triple lutz without any preceding spiral or arm-enhanced second jump; the air position and landing are all fine but not special, and the edge change on the takeoff is just as bad as on the first lutz and called by the tech panel. Everything else about the solo jump is worthy of 0, from Judge A's angle the edge change is moderate and worthy of -2, from Judge B's angle it's severe and worthy of -3, so those are the GOEs they give to that element.
 
In any scoring system there will be borderline calls that could go either way. That's why the "wrong edge" call must be "obvious in real time and agreed upon unanimously by the technical panel". Same reason why a quarter turn cheat is allowed in counting revolutions -- if you are going to downgrade a jump, the underrotaion must be obvious. If it is not obvious, then each judge is free to decide for him/herself how to handle the GOE.

But I do think that a case can be made for taking the "wrong edge" penalty off the base value instead of (or perhaps in addition to, with other factors) the GOE.

If the objection is that a flutz isn't really a Lutz, but then it isn't a flip either, so maybe it's halfway in between, or maybe it's neither, and what is the definition of a Lutz jump anyway? -- if that's what we are arguing about, then I think the ISU has addressed the question in a straightforwand manner. There may be no such thing as a "flutz", but now -- it's right there in the rules -- there is a new jump called a "wrong edge Lutz."

I think it would be OK to reduce the base value to, say, 4.0 instead of 6.0, then let the judges put on plus or minus GOE as they think appropriate.

The analogy might be something like this. The skater has planned a level 3 flying camel combination spin. The tech specialist calls, "too few revolutions in the second position -- level 2."

The element gets a smaller base value, the base value for a level 2 instead of a level 3, for this error.
 
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Also, I find it a bit ironic that those of rigid mind who insist the wrong edge take off should be scored a flip, would end up giving the skater more points even though the jump has a clear error. They hate the fact the jump has an error and consider it an outrage against sport, yet would score the element with more points by insisting it be called a flip with a correct take off edge! We need to punish the skaters for taking off on the wrong edge, so let's give them more points! That will teach 'em.

I prefer to think of myself as a purest - not rigid however, I don't subscribe to the logic above. If the lutz is cheated, it's cheated and I don't support calling it a flip at all. Perhaps I'm in the minority amongst my purest/rigid peers - I say give them no credit at all. Besides, if figure skating started off as attempts to draw perfect circles with your blade on the ice using different edges and we agree that's the foundation of the sport, how can we overlook a foundation cemented in edge control when and not greatly penalize a skater who displays such a lack of it on a jump? That's the real outrage to me. You woudn't tolerate it in figures so why is free?
 
And I'll repeat once more, while the lutz may be more difficult in theory, in practice especially in competition, the flip is every bit as hard (maybe more so). I really think they should get the same base value.

I don't follow this - but I'm open to discussion. can you explain?
 
I can't speak from personal experience when it comes to triples (or doubles), but I would say that a single flutz is enough more difficult than a good single toe loop that I wouldn't have a problem with it being worth more. Of course, the way the scale of values is set up, a +1 toe loop, single or double, is worth more than a -1 lutz.

But this VALIDATES that a flutz is a jump - and it's not.

A fifth triple, which shows the stamina to perform six (including the double axel) difficult jumps during the program whereas A has only done five. If you want to consider that jump a flip, then the ability to do a flip both from a more standard setup and also from a somewhat more difficult approach that makes it more lutz-like even if you don't quite consider it a lutz.

Good point - at least stamina-wise. But I'm still not convinced.

Of course A would have the option of repeating one of her other triples. If it were the flip, and if she earned 0 or positive GOE, she'd end up with more jump points for that jump, and thus overall, than B would with a negative-GOE lutz.
c
 
Flutz

I hear two different complaints:

1. Flutz not being penalized enough
2. Many skaters are not attempting 5 different types of triple jumps anymore


Possible Solution: Skaters are rewarded bonus points for doing 5 different types of triples. If a Lutz turns into a Flutz, NO BONUS POINTS. Now if someone has a triple axel, a flutz won't hurt her as much. Seems fair enough???
 
But this VALIDATES that a flutz is a jump - and it's not.

Of course it's a jump. If I jump straight up from two feet, don't rotate, and come down in the same spot on two feet, I have jumped. I wouldn't get any points for it -- it's not in the scale of values and would only count as a transition. That example would be a really really easy transition -- my niece who can barely do a one-foot glide can do that.

So use another example -- let's say a walley. Not in the scale of values, so it only counts as a transition and doesn't earn poitns. But would you really argue that because it doesn't have an assigned point value it is "not a jump"?

Walleys (counterclockwise rotation) are usually set up with RBO-BI edge change. Suppose the skater changes edge again back to RBO before leaving the ice. Same kind of mistake as a flutz (except on the other foot and without toe assist).

Or perhaps an inside axel in which the skater starts to skid a three turn before leaving the ice so s/he really takes off from RBO instead of RFI.

Either way, now it's technically a single loop jump, probably with an unusual free leg position. How does your purIst heart tell you to consider that? Give the 0.5 points for a single loop (plus or minus whatever GOEs the judges assign) and fill a jump slot because the mistake has turned it from "not a jump" to "a jump"? Or consider it a flawed walley or inside axel and have it considered a transition move with lower quality than a real walley/inside axel?

I could see that choice going either way. Personally I'd prefer the latter, as long as it's obvious what the skater was intending to do.

Although what I'd really like to see is those jumps added to the scale of values to encourage skaters to learn doubles from those takeoffs, and figure out a way to allow junior and senior (and probably novice) level skaters to include single jumps from any takeoff as transitions in ways that they can be rewarded for without cutting into their allotted amount of intended doubles/triples/quads.
 
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