The "wrong edge" call in JGP events | Page 8 | Golden Skate

The "wrong edge" call in JGP events

I look at the new rules like this. The ISU has officially added two new jumps to the list of scored jumps, with somewhat flexible "base values" (a required GOE has the same effect as a change in base value). The two new jumps are:

The Lutz(e) and the Flip(e).
 
Perhaps I'm in the minority amongst my purest/rigid peers - I say give them no credit at all.

Besides, if figure skating started off as attempts to draw perfect circles with your blade on the ice using different edges and we agree that's the foundation of the sport, how can we overlook a foundation cemented in edge control when and not greatly penalize a skater who displays such a lack of it on a jump? That's the real outrage to me. You woudn't tolerate it in figures so why is free?
In figures, if you did a really awful, ugly circle that wasn't round at all and you flopped over on the wrong edge in the middle -- I don't think your score would be "no credit at all."

I think what would happen instead is that you would get a much lower score than if you had done it perfectly (sort of like getting -3 GOE for your wrong edge Lutz).
 
I hear two different complaints:

1. Flutz not being penalized enough
2. Many skaters are not attempting 5 different types of triple jumps anymore


Possible Solution: Skaters are rewarded bonus points for doing 5 different types of triples. If a Lutz turns into a Flutz, NO BONUS POINTS. Now if someone has a triple axel, a flutz won't hurt her as much. Seems fair enough???
:rock: I like it.

The other thing that might help is if the loop, flip and Lutz all had the same point value. Some people say a Lutz is harder than a flip, but there are lot's of lippers out there who like that outside edge take-off just fine. Some skaters say that any toe-pick assisted jump is easier than an edge jump because, well, gee, you get the assistance of the pick.

That way each skater could skate to his/her strength instead of to the point system. If you had a great loop, an OK flip and a flutzy Lutz you could do 3Lo, 3F+3Lo and 3(f)Lz. That way, if they gave you the Lutz you'd get the bonus, and if they called it a flip, you would still be OK, just without the bonus.
 
So many posts since last night!

Let me make two points floating through the previous posts.

Viewing one jump in isolation, if you call the actual takeoff edge, a flutz is not an error and no penalty is appropriate. The skaters are not require to do any specific jumps (except the Junior SP). They are not required to do any specific jump setups. If they do a Lutz setup and then flop the edge at the take off, purists by definition say that is a flip. Since a flip is allowed (and a flip with any setup is allowed), the correct scoring is a flip (BV 5.5, GoE 0). Similarly if the flip changes edge, they did a Lutz by definition of a Lutz, and the correct scoring is a Lutz (BV6.0, GoE 0).

The problem comes in with the repeat rule as mentioned in Joe's post. What do you do if the skater ends up with 3-4 flips or Lutz, or you get two flips in the SP, if you call the take off edge?

The ISU discussed this at length. There are two approaches. One is to say, call the actual takeoff, and if the skater ends up violating the repeat rule, they lose the repeated element and all points associated with that element. There is then no penalty for the jump that changed edge, because whatever edge they took off of, is a permitted jump type (Lutz or flip) regardless of the setup edge prior to the take off edge. In this case the skater is potentially penalized in the loss of elements (if they break the repeat rule). Last season the callers in the U.S. were calling the actual take off edge, and the repeat rule was used to drop elements that violated it.

The second approach is to call the intent, and say that the change of edge at the take off is an error. The repeat rule then not only applies to the number of attempts, it applies to the intent of the attempts. In this case, the skater does not lose any subsequent elements and is penalized in the GoE for the element with the change of edge (every time they do it).

I know that the ISU discussed this for an extended period of time this year, and the decision was that the first approach (penalizing if the repeat rule was violated) was too harsh, and the second approach (penalizing in the GoE) was adopted with the introduction of the change in edge call.

I would also speculate another reason the ISU did not stick with the original approach (call the take off edge and apply the repeat rule ) is that ISU technical panels were not vigilant in calling the take off edges and ISU judges were not vigilant in reducing the GoE. Now that the skater will not be crucified for the wrong edge, I think the technical panels will be more consistent in calling the wrong edge, and the judges will be more consistent in reducing the GoE. My prediction is the skaters will now be more consistently penalized for the change of edge. Just not as harshly as some of you would like.

And to be a bit redundant. Since the reward for not flutzing over to a flip edge is so small compared to the base value of a flip, I think a -1 GoE for a small change of edge is appropriate. If it was huge I would go to -2. I don't think I would every go to -3 (even though I am allowed) because I don't think the change of edge error is as bad as a fall.

That's just my view, and if someone wanted to kill the skater with a -3, the guidelines for the GoEs allow it. So those of you who think the flutz should get the maximum penalty possible, would be allowed to do that to the skater if you were on a panel, though I think most judges stick with the -1 and occasional -2. At a -3, the jump is worth less than every triple and the double Axel. So for those of you who want to go that far, we are already there in terms of what a judge is allowed to do.

Except for those who want the jump to get no credit, or a mandatory -3, the current approach let's most of you punish the skater as much as you have been advocating.
 
Rossano said:
Last season the callers in the U.S. were calling the actual take off edge, and the repeat rule was used to drop elements that violated it.
Was this done at U.S. Nationals? Did any skater lose points for a Zayak violation because of it?
 
Was this done at U.S. Nationals? Did any skater lose points for a Zayak violation because of it?

One would have to look at the protocols. Probably not, but I don't know.

But last season I did data or sat among the technical panels in many competitions, and saw the discussions and decisions, and saw decisions go down where the attempted Lutz was called a flip, and the repeat rule was invoked. Was it done nationwide with perfect consistency? I don't know. Probably not. (Is anything?) But I saw enough of it happen to know that the technical panels took it into consideration in their decision making.

Some industrious person would have to plod through all the protocols for all the competitions to figure out how often it happened, but that would not be me.

I would also add, now that the wrong edge call will be visible in the protocols, the fans will know for sure when it was called or not, and will be able to discuss ad nauseum whether in some case or another it was called "correctly" and whether the judges reduced the GoE enough -- which except for the ad nauseum part is a good thing.
 
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Except for those who want the jump to get no credit, or a mandatory -3, the current approach let's most of you punish the skater as much as you have been advocating.
To me, the issue is not so much punishing skaters who make a mistake. I think posters like Mafke and Antman are raising the following criticism of the whole CoP approach.

Under the current rules, the skater is most rewarded who throws eveything into his/her program but the kitchen sink. (Maybe next year someone will come out with a new move called the "kitchen sink" and claim the 1 point bonus for an innovative move -- where is Michael Weiss when you need him? :) )

If you do a quad with a fall, a couple of underrotated triple Axels, a triple flutz/stagger/double whatzit, a dash down the center of the ice arms flailing -- whoa, dogies! -- look at him go!

It would be so great to see instead a textbook presentation of a variety of classic jumps and spins showing exquisite edge control and body awareness. (OK, that's figures. :laugh: )

That's how I felt about Michelle Kwan's Aranjuez/Tosca program. Maybe the choreography was spare compared to her Lori Nichol programs (been there, done that), but every move I felt like she was saying, "OK, folks, this is how you do a double Axel; this is how you do a COE spiral; this is how you do straight line footwork (this is how you do a layback spin, only pretend it's a little faster and that I have a little more arch in my back). Any questions?" :love:

She put on a figure skating clinic. I miss that in these 190 point programs that the girls are throwing at us now.
 
One would have to look at the protocols. Probably not, but I don't know.
I just skimmed the ladies' LP from Spokane, and nobody got a "0" for anything. There were, however, quite a few other mistakes that would have masked the edge thing -- many skaters had entries like 1F ( = 0.55 points) which might have been an attempt at a 3Lz that went horribly wrong.
But last season I did data or sat among the technical panels in many competitions, and saw the discussions and decisions, and saw decisions go down where the attempted Lutz was called a flip, and the repeat rule was invoked. Was it done nationwide with perfect consistency? I don't know. Probably not. (Is anything?) But I saw enough of it happen to know that the technical panels took it into consideration in their decision making...
How did the technical specialists and judges like it, from your experience? In the ISU discussions, were the USFS representatives on the side of, "a flutz is a flip?"
 
Why such fury about the flutz and no such fury at the lip?

I'm in no-teknik, but a flutz is making a jump easier, and isn't the lip making it harder inadvertently? It's flawed technique either way, but maybe this makes the lip less serious in some people's eyes.
 
I just skimmed the ladies' LP from Spokane, and nobody got a "0" for anything. There were, however, quite a few other mistakes that would have masked the edge thing -- many skaters had entries like 1F ( = 0.55 points) which might have been an attempt at a 3Lz that went horribly wrong.

That's why having the new wrong edge designation there will be good. We will know for sure if it was called and we will know what the judges do with it.

As a caution though, I never rely on one part of one event or even one competition in assessing the system. I try to look at many competitions from baby events at a club competition in Great Falls, Montana (for example) to Senior skaters at U.S. Nationals. What matters to me is how the system is working for the whole competition structure. The system has to be structured to work from top to bottom and from small towns with a few clubs to the big city with dozens of clubs.

How did the technical specialists and judges like it, from your experience? In the ISU discussions, were the USFS representatives on the side of, "a flutz is a flip?"

My experience was that some TSs I observed felt very uncomfortable making a call that would nock out a later jump, but did it anyway. I think they are relieved that they just have to call a change of edge and to let the judges do the penalizing. But that is just my observation and interpretation. I don't speak for anyone on the panels.

As for judges, I think that most are now firmly in the mind set that they don't second guess the specific decisions of the TP. They just focus on their part of the job and let the TP do it's job, however it happens to be defined at the time. Which is the way it i supposed to be.

Now as for how harshly the flutz should be punished, as I have said, most judges seem to be going to -1. Some go to -2. I don't recall any judge ever remarking to me they went to a -3 for the change of edge. My sense of it is the judges like the wrong edge being called and the jump scored based on intent. Hard to believe, but the judges are not all about punishing the skaters for errors. We want to reward whatever they accomplish.

It would not be appropriate for me to reveal what any specific person said to me about the ISU process. So let's just leave it at, it received a lot of thought and discussion over many months and we now all know the decision in ISU 1445 and 1459.
 
In figures, if you did a really awful, ugly circle that wasn't round at all and you flopped over on the wrong edge in the middle -- I don't think your score would be "no credit at all."

I think what would happen instead is that you would get a much lower score than if you had done it perfectly (sort of like getting -3 GOE for your wrong edge Lutz).

A better example would be a counter that was performed as a change of edge followed by a three turn, or a rocker as a three followed by change of edge. Common errors on those turns.

In each figure, traced three times on each foot, there would be three opportunities to do the forward turns incorrectly and three to do the backward turns incorrectly. A skater who really couldn't do those turns at all might make the mistake every single time -- a generally competent skater might do most of the turns correctly and err on just one of the repetitions.

I don't know what the specific deductions would have been when judging those figures, but I would expect that a skater who performed rocker figure with one turn that wasn't really a rocker would get a lower score than skaters who did them all correctly, and a skater who did all the turns incorrectly would get a much lower score . . . and skaters who made a few mistakes and a few correct turns would score somewhere in between.

If a perfect score was 6.0 and the very best figures skaters only ever scored about 5.0, maybe a skater who changed edge on every single turn would score as low as 1.0 or 2.0, but they wouldn't have received 0 points for the figure even though it technically didn't meet the definition of a rocker figure. "0" was defined as "not skated" -- not "skated so badly that it didn't meet the definition of the figure."
 
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Thanks gsrossano and gkelly. I feel like I am closing in on a better understanding of this issue.
 
Although what I'd really like to see is those jumps added to the scale of values to encourage skaters to learn doubles from those takeoffs, and figure out a way to allow junior and senior (and probably novice) level skaters to include single jumps from any takeoff as transitions in ways that they can be rewarded for without cutting into their allotted amount of intended doubles/triples/quads.
That would be a big step in the right direction, IMHO. I look at some of those old programs from the 60s and 70s, with various unsual single jump entries -- they are pretty amazing.

However, if you could get around the problem that a single jump might unintentially fill a jumping box, I would have no objection to letting the cool entrance count only in the PCSs (the CoP is already complicated enough on the tech side). This assumes that the judges would really look hard at Transitions, Choreography and Skating Skills and not just give a blanket 6.5 for a nicely skated program.
 
It's like I said, a slap on the wrist for a flutz (-1), and a severe beating for the intent of an intended jump that landed short (downgrade!).

Joe
 
It's like I said, a slap on the wrist for a flutz (-1), and a severe beating for the intent of an intended jump that landed short (downgrade!).

Joe

Works for me.

I posted a poll on this weighty question in the voting booth. What should the penalty be?

And speaking of weighty issues. At lunch I saw Jeffrey Buttle in the grocery store at Lake Arrowhead, and he was like

buying chocolate milk, and

gasp ...

other dairy products.

Yes it's true.

Jeffrey had got milk!

(It's all true. I swear!)
 
Works for me.

I posted a poll on this weighty question in the voting booth. What should the penalty be?
It doesn't work for me. It's the old agree to disagree. for us

A jump which failed to follow its definition and the error itself is scored as if it were part of the legitimate jump is just too weighty for me to change my mind regardless how non scientific polls show.

I would like to see a survey on who flutzes year after year and is unable to do the jump by definition ever. Not to put Sasha down, but did she ever complete a true lutz?

Joe
 
I would like to see a survey on who flutzes year after year and is unable to do the jump by definition ever. Not to put Sasha down, but did she ever complete a true lutz?

Joe
I would like to see if Sebestyen ever completed a true flip.
 
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