The "wrong edge" call in JGP events

[Mathman]

On the other hand the inside Axel, that takes off on the lfi edge for a right handed skater is considered an unlisted jump since the ISU says to be an Axel it must take off from a forwards outside edge.

So in a perfectly consistent set of rules, a flutz would be an "unlisted jump" with 0 credit? Am I understanding this right?

 

[gkelly]

So in a perfectly consistent set of rules, a flutz would be an "unlisted jump" with 0 credit? Am I understanding this right?

No, because if you go precisely by the edge that it leaves the ice from, it would be a listed jump . . . a flip.

 

[gsrossano]

So in a perfectly consistent set of rules, a flutz would be an "unlisted jump" with 0 credit? Am I understanding this right?

No. In a perfectly consistent set of rules where take off edge and tap (or not) determines the name of the jump, a flutz is a flip. In the inconsistent reality of the ISU rules, a flutz is a Lutz with an error on the take off.

Remember the ISU is a "looking glass" world where a word means what they choose it to mean, nothing more, nothing less (with apologies to Lewis Carroll).

 

[Mathman]

Remember the ISU is a "looking glass" world where a word means what they choose it to mean, nothing more, nothing less (with apologies to Lewis Carroll).

Actually, I am not outraged about this.

No set of rules (apologies to Hammurabi ), however well reasoned and detailed, can possibly anticipate or accomodate the astonishing array of weird idiocincracies to be found in the real world of human behavior. In figure skating, the rules serve the sport, not the other way around. That's as it should be.

(I have a new all-time favorite figure skating quote: "I support the ISU judging system 51 per cent! -- GSRossano. :agree: )

 

[gsrossano]

a FULL 51%!!!

 

[Mafke]

A layback with an easy leg position is still a layback. It's just not optimal.

A "flutz" is simply a nickname for a Lutz with a sub-optimal take off.

It's really not hard to understand, I don't get the confusion.

A layback with an easy leg position isn't violating one of the parameters of the spin.
If a flutz is a lutz with a sub-optimal take off, then what's a flip?

 

[Mafke]

But the ISU now allows a jump to be landed on the opposite foot. For example a right handed double loop takes off on a rbo edge rotates twice and lands on a rbo edge. For the double loop the skater could also take off on the rbo edge rotate twice and land on the lbi edge. That would be considered a listed jump. (This would not be true for the single loop landed on the lbi edge, since the ISU considers this jump - the so-called half loop -- an unlisted jump.)
... On the other hand the inside Axel, that takes off on the lfi edge for a right handed skater is considered an unlisted jump since the ISU says to be an Axel it must take off from a forwards outside edge.

You know, I used to think the people in charge of CoP were just sloppy and short-sighted in neglecting to include moves that have decades of history behind them. Now I think they are malovently stupid...

 

[GoldMedalist]

If a flutz is a lutz with a sub-optimal take off, then what's a flip?

A flip is a toe-pick jump where you turn into the left blade and jump off of it.

A lutz is a toe-pick jump where you were gliding on the back outside edge of the left blade and then jump.

If you're on the opposing edge by the time you do leave the ice, it doesn't suddenly turn the Lutz into a Flip or visa versa. Any skater who has attempted at least double Lutz and double Flip will have felt the difference in mechanics between doing a Flip and a Lutz where they had to let the edge change over.

 

[Mafke]

A flip is a toe-pick jump where you turn into the left blade and jump off of it.

A lutz is a toe-pick jump where you were gliding on the back outside edge of the left blade and then jump.

I think a distinction needs to be made between 'minor' flutzes where the skater changes edge very shortly before take off and 'major' flutzes where the change of edge is distinct enough and early enough to render any notion of 'counter rotation' meaningless.

I have no problem with calling minor flutzes flawed lutzes, but I still think major flutzes (for example Sarah Hughes) end up being flips.

 

[gsrossano]

Now I think they are malovently stupid...

Which brings to mind a new change in IJS that many people are unaware of.

Last season, with 5 or more judges IJS calculated scores using the single trimmed mean. Now that method doesn't do a heck of a lot to filter out marks that are outliers, but it's better than nothing.

This season for 7 judges and above they will still use the STM, but for 5 or 6 judges (and below) it is a straight average. So one judge in those cases gets to pull the result up or down regardless of how absurd their marks are.

Keep that in mind when you look at the results from Regionals when they start coming out next week.

 

[GoldMedalist]

I have no problem with calling minor flutzes flawed lutzes, but I still think major flutzes (for example Sarah Hughes) end up being flips.

It still requires a different body position going into the jump, making a "major flutz" different than a Flip.

But I too think there should be two different levels of penalty.

 

[gkelly]

As it stands now, there are two levels of penalty.

A minor change of edge that is not blatant and is not called by the technical panel can be punished with -1 reduction in the GOE, but the final GOE does not need to be negative if balanced by positive qualities in the rest of the jump or jump combination/sequence.

A blatant change of edge called by the tech panel can be punished with -2 or -3 reduction, and the final GOE must not be any higher than -1.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

No, because if you go precisely by the edge that it leaves the ice from, it would be a listed jump . . . a flip.

Yet, if you go by a revised definition, you would just say it takes off on either a back inside or outside edge. The skater has a choice and uses that choice to qualify for an additional jump pass and does not use it for a skilled lutz if the choice is back inside edge. It is, imo, only to qualify for an additional jump pass. I mean really, there are many other jumps to show triple air rotatons, but......

As to the triple inside axel which no longer carries any points, we don't have to apply the dual standard for a Flaxsel. We're off the hook on that one.

Joe