2020-21 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[TripleAxelQueens3]

Do you think 34 PCS was reasonable back then?

No, but if everyone is going to say that "oh it's a domestic competition, everyone's scores are inflated!" then she should be receiving the PCS to reflect her improvement (+1 or +2 overall I suppose). I think 34 makes perfect sense for what she presented at the 2nd stage, so before maybe 31 or 32 for before?

 

[flanker]

I suppose, considering the previous surprisingly similar cases, that the only thing you need for people to start claiming your PCS has improved is to move from Eteri to Plushenko (or basically anywhere else).

 

[Skatesocs]

Them getting scores that place them relative to each other.

Yes. That's all.

The function of any judge is to produce a ranking. You can look at a scoresheet and call it "objective" or "unobjective" - this we'll never know if they have done or not. But what we have and what we always debate is 1st, 2nd, 3rd. Not 225.65, 219.78, 210.87.

 

[Alex65]

No, but if everyone is going to say that "oh it's a domestic competition, everyone's scores are inflated!" then she should be receiving the PCS to reflect her improvement (+1 or +2 overall I suppose). I think 34 makes perfect sense for what she presented at the 2nd stage, so before maybe 31 or 32 for before?

I would say that Sasha, all the same, received some home bonus in her short, keeping her last year's marks at the same level. She just lost the "Eteri bonus" she had last year. Some of Plushenko's resentment about Sasha's marks was due to the judges' lack of approval for the improvement in skating and presentation skills that went unnoticed by the judges in this competition. In truth, Sasha was more involved in the program at the open skates and performed it better than I expected to see at the Cup. Perhaps the inclusion in the 3A program and the excitement at the first start of the season affected. I dont know. But in any case, Sasha's new short is better than what she had last year and Sasha performs it much better. I can understand Plushenko's indignation that she did not get a promotion for this.

 

[NAOTMAA]

The only way Aleksandra would have retained the "Eteri bonus" and get higher due to her improvements, with a coach of no record like Plushkenko, is if she were already a dominant champion. If she had won the GP final and Euros and silver at nationals as Alena had done perhaps she would have. But instead she was third at all three.

Plushkenko should know the politics of skating but perhaps he does and simply is going after PR. Or maybe he doesn't and is just talking as he is due to ego

 

[Alex65]

The only way Aleksandra would have retained the "Eteri bonus" and get higher due to her improvements, with a coach of no record like Plushkenko, is if she were already a dominant champion. If she had won the GP final and Euros and silver at nationals as Alena had done perhaps she would have. But instead she was third at all three.

Plushkenko should know the politics of skating but perhaps he does and simply is going after PR. Or maybe he doesn't and is just talking as he is due to ego

I think you are right in many ways. It will be interesting to see what marks Alena will receive.

 

[Amei]

Transitions only make up a single bullet point and aren’t even necessary to reach +5 GOE. Her lutz absolutely has good height and distance, is effortless throughout, has a good take off and landing, and a good body position throughout. That’s enough for +4 right there, and if it’s with the music she can still theoretically earn +5.

I feel like everyone focuses too much on transitions when talking about how much GOE a jump should get. The bullet point for transitions is a bonus! It’s not supposed to factor in unless the skater has hit the first three bullet points. Clearly it doesn’t work that way in practice but still.

Well I didn't say that it was the only factor of GOE but that Tuktamysheva's lack of transitions impedes her ability to get higher GOE than the .5-1.5 points GOE that she usually gets; per my first comment I also said that last season I felt that she lost speed and ice coverage on her combination jumps which should also be affecting her GOE. And it would appear based on the GOEs she gets, that judges feel skaters competing at her level need to be doing more than doing long, gliding setups for their jumps.

 

[TripleAxelQueens3]

I suppose, considering the previous surprisingly similar cases, that the only thing you need for people to start claiming your PCS has improved is to move from Eteri to Plushenko (or basically anywhere else).

Watch Sasha's programs last season and watch them this season. Even if you can't see a difference, a lot of people can. It's not true that a skaters presentation gets better after leaving Eteri, for example, Panenkova's and Tsurskaya's both seemed to drop a little, and I'd go as far as to say Tarakanova's programs with Eteri were better than hers later on (Moonlight Sonata was good, but it didn't showcase her abilities as well as her Eteri programs). But with Sasha, there is a difference. She's not just going from element to element not caring about holding out other movements or actually trying to connect with music. Even if she wasn't nearly as involved here in comparison to test skates, she was still way more involved than last year.

 

[lopsilceci]

Watch Sasha's programs last season and watch them this season. Even if you can't see a difference, a lot of people can. It's not true that a skaters presentation gets better after leaving Eteri, for example, Panenkova's and Tsurskaya's both seemed to drop a little, and I'd go as far as to say Tarakanova's programs with Eteri were better than hers later on (Moonlight Sonata was good, but it didn't showcase her abilities as well as her Eteri programs). But with Sasha, there is a difference. She's not just going from element to element not caring about holding out other movements or actually trying to connect with music. Even if she wasn't nearly as involved here in comparison to test skates, she was still way more involved than last year.

Sasha is definitely working hard on these aspects of her skating, but I think a lot of these changes come from her, not her coaching team.
There's a bit of maturity that came from being a year older and life changes.
There's also the packaging. Sasha's programs this season are more "serious" or more similar to other senior ladies, while in the last season, they were more different and unique, which is not always appreciated by the judges and it's sometimes seen as juniorish.

I definitely saw Sasha following the music more and being more expressive in the short program than the free, but I still find it strange that people say she was lowballed in PCS there when she had some noticeable mistakes and both Kamila and Daria were practically perfect. If Sasha had also been clean in the SP, we could then compare their scores more objectively.
Maybe in the next competition it will be possible.

 

[Alex65]

Sasha is definitely working hard on these aspects of her skating, but I think a lot of these changes come from her, not her coaching team.
There's a bit of maturity that came from being a year older and life changes.
There's also the packaging. Sasha's programs this season are more "serious" or more similar to other senior ladies, while in the last season, they were more different and unique, which is not always appreciated by the judges and it's sometimes seen as juniorish.

I definitely saw Sasha following the music more and being more expressive in the short program than the free, but I still find it strange that people say she was lowballed in PCS there when she had some noticeable mistakes and both Kamila and Daria were practically perfect. If Sasha had also been clean in the SP, we could then compare their scores more objectively.
Maybe in the next competition it will be possible.

If my memory serves me, people complained mainly about the fact that Kamila, as a result, received an advantage in the PCS lower (or higher, depending on preference )than she deserves (in their opinion). Up to the point that Sasha's PCS in this competition are overrated. Please note that the posters that talked about Sasha's improvement compared to last year did not talk about Sasha's scores at all. If you meant Plushenko's interview, then this is his opinion and he expressed it.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Yes. That's all.

The function of any judge is to produce a ranking. You can look at a scoresheet and call it "objective" or "unobjective" - this we'll never know if they have done or not. But what we have and what we always debate is 1st, 2nd, 3rd. Not 225.65, 219.78, 210.87.

No the function of the judge is to produce a score. IJS judges do not produce ordinals. Nor do/should they manipulate their scoring to “rank” skaters. They shouldn’t be looking at a 3A and be like “oh well I want this skater A to be ranked behind skater B so I’m going to give lower GOE to ensure that happens.” It’s more like (or should be like), Im just going to give this 3A the GOE I think it deserves and skater A will end up relative to skater B however they end up.

 

[TripleAxelQueens3]

About the whole objectivity of scoring topic. Judges shouldn't be scoring by which skate they like better. Sure, that plays a role, but the actual technicalities of scoring (aka jumping GOE, SS and TR scores, URs and edge calls) play a bigger role. When I do rescorings, I often find myself surprised by results because performances that I like often score lower to performances that I enjoy less. You can give higher PE, CO and IN scores to performance you like, but you shouldn't be saying "oh, this spin is better than the one before, I gave the one before +3 GOE, so I'll give this one +4 GOE." There are actual GOE bullets and you should be following them. Sometimes I'll like a spin better just watching it, but then when I look at the GOE bullets, I find myself giving less than I would in comparison to another spin. There isn't a GOE bullet or PCS category called "likability". You shouldn't be measuring skaters or skates against each other, the scores themselves will do that for you. Just because a skate I'm indifferent towards scored 80, I shouldn't be giving all jumps and spins +5s in order to get a skate that I like above 80, unless of course this skater is literally the embodiment of perfection and my +5s actually have reasoning behind them.

 

[colormyworld240]

Camila gets a well-deserved +5 for her spins. But in terms of skating skills, transitions and difficult steps, she does not have a noticeable superiority over the main part of the field. And she is much inferior in this to Alena, no matter what they say. The aesthetics of her movements are pleasant, this is also indisputable, but it is not the same as the presentation and interpretation of the program.
I will repeat once again about Usacheva's estimates for FP. She was restricted to the РCS solely for political motives in this competition. Valieva should not have lost, but since this happened, the judges made every effort so that she did not end up in third place. You will see that at his next start, Usacheva will receive a full PCS. IMO

What are the political motivations? They're representing the same city and club and have the exact same set of coaches and choreographers. They're also the same age so there's no arguing a preference for the younger skater. This is also mirrored in their scoring internationally, under a completely different set of judges where there is also no difference in countries/coaches. In terms of skating skills and transitions, I do find Kamila superior. I also think she's more musical and her movements are more beautiful. Imo, she is scoring higher because she has earned her scores, relative to Daria and anyone else.

 

[Scott512]

As much as it is exciting seeing videos of skaters on insta, them showing off their skills and all, I wish everyone would just shut up, not give interviews and stop thrash talking. But that ship has sailed...

What skaters are trash talking? You know this how you never see any skaters from TT ever say anything about anybody?

 

[Scott512]

Yep....
Sure he is just concerned about the validity of scores. Makes sense to me.
Maybe he should consider returning some of his "perfect 6.0" scores from yesteryear.
Or maybe he should ask to have his SP score from the 2006 Olympics re-evaluated.
Just in case there is even the slightest possibility that maybe, just maybe, he was not THAT much better than everyone else.

What he has done here in his ongoing "battle" with Eteri is to drag Kamila right into that cesspool.
Nice way to treat a 14 year old Plushy. Great job. "When they go low, we also go low".

And, of course, he just has to drag Alina right back into it also.
I truly appreciated the way Plushy was one of the few "Russian Elites" that was supportive of Alina during her 2018-19 struggles.
And I honestly used to think he actually cared about her future career development.
But then he had to "blab" about her asking him about quads (thus causing Alina to be the subject of some poem about "betrayal")
And now this again????

If indeed Alina decides to retire from competitive skating....
I hope that decision has not been helped along by this "battle for her soul" bewteen two of the biggest egos in figure skating.

What did he say about KV and Alina? That Kamila scores were too high? Gee I wonder if Sasha or aliona scores were too high at any time when they were with TT. or back in the day when Plushebko was racking up huge scores from jumping maybe sometimes his scores were too high. I'm pretty sure that was the case . hey I was cheering for him so I was good with it. Just like I've been good with it for all of TT girls last several years getting big scores.

Kamila may not be quite the jumper Sasha is but she does most everything else else better and along with Anna are the two biggest threats to Aliona and Sasha becoming number one in ladies figure skating.

As for Alina maybe he still has a strong desire for her to come to his academy. Hey and if plushie adds Anna they'll have the reuniting of 4A! I'm sure Sasha will be jumping for joy with that.

 

[Scott512]

the regal Anna Frolova:




and many more by @morus.vadim.

What a treat to see the skaters from this close up.

The young ice dance couple is also a delight.

Vadim, still so young, is an excellent skater and operator by himself, being able to film these short program run throughs on a crowded rink.

Thank you Edwin for show and go snippet videos of SS Liza and AF. They are superb kind of different.

Are they coached by one coach? If so I hope he can keep them all happy.

the hardest thing for these kids to deal with is when they are 17 and 18 there could be another group of 14 and 15 year old girls that are even better than they are coming up. I think as fans we should enjoy them all while we can because there will be no let-up in great young talent coming up for the Russian girls ifor many years.

 

[Scott512]

Just thinking about things I've never heard a coach complain about the scores Robin opposing coaches skater when his skater beat the opposing coaches skater for the gold. That is puzzling. But plushie has balls he did as a skater and does now as a recruiter. Remember he also said aliona did not deserve best newcomer when she obviously did. And she transferred to his academy anyway.

I wish Evgenia would return. This would take so much conversation off of the leader of PA and his sometimes controversial comments. I I think we should all admire and respect what a great group of girls and ladies the Russians have for figure skating. it's truly unparalleled to have so many wonder girls in one discipline at the same time. I would rather talk about that and hopefully we will do a lot more of that in the future and lasts about coaches and controversies and things like that.

 

[Skatesocs]

No the function of the judge is to produce a score. IJS judges do not produce ordinals. Nor do/should they manipulate their scoring to “rank” skaters. They shouldn’t be looking at a 3A and be like “oh well I want this skater A to be ranked behind skater B so I’m going to give lower GOE to ensure that happens.” It’s more like (or should be like), Im just going to give this 3A the GOE I think it deserves and skater A will end up relative to skater B however they end up.

World Championship qualifying scores are fixed numbers, not rankings. Subjective valuation of GOE has a significant effect on TES, and so bullet points are listed, even if there continues to be struggle to understand and apply them equitably. There are calculations to the second decimal that have meaningful application and great importance in the current system.

Okay.

 

[bubblecherry]

I wish Evgenia would return.

Me too! She’s a champion and a star. Her presence adds so much to skating. That’s my biggest wish in Russian Figure Skating right now.

 

[TripleAxelQueens3]

I wholly agree with Backoutside's posts, but here's another thing I have to say about PCS - I find it astonishing that skaters usually have PCS scores across all categories so close to each other. Because in reality, most of these scores, save for IN and CO which seem to go hand in hand in some aspects, are completely independent from each other. How well you emote and convey feelings to the audience have nothing to do with the amount of transitions. One can excel in PE with next to no transitions, and they can do just as well with a program packed with transitions. For example, a lot of Eteri girls's programs deserve high scores in IN and PE because the skaters do extremely well with musical accents, building up speed for climaxes, and conveying emotion to audience members. They also deserve high scores in TR, but for a completely different reason. But their scores for SS and CO often fluctuate. Like last year, Alyona deserved high SS scores, but Anna and Sasha don't necessarily deserve high SS scores. Anna's CO last season should be pretty high (though I have to rant again about how Daniil made use of one out of like twenty musical accents in Firebird), but this season it should be lower. Not because she isn't doing well, because I actually really like her programs, but because 1. the choreography for Perfume and for Elegie are very similar and 2. because they literally changed the second half of the FS music but kept the same choreography. So, I don't understand why a skater must get all 9s in PCS or all 8s in PCS, or only low 9s and high 8s, because in reality, the spread should be much greater.