Who Makes the Winner: Coach or Choreographer?

[Joesitz (RIP)]

So much credit is given to the coach whose job, imo, is to work with the skater to excel in the Technical portion of the competition.

Less credit, it seems, is given to the choreographer who puts it all together - packaged, so to speak.

(The skater(s) of course, add the nuances to the performance.

I prefer to know who the choreographer is more than who the coach is, and I would like to read some comments from others on this.

Joe

 

[calica]

Both are very important but I believe that it depends on the skater. If a skater is strong mentally he does not need so much a coach. If he is artistically capable, the choreographer will not be so important

 

[kittyjake5]

I always felt that a coach is more important than a choreographer. Good technique taught by a coach is essential to be able to perform a well skated program. Excellent technique, talent and good choreography = success.

 

[all that]

Interesting question. When G&G trained for the 94 Olympics, didn't they train mostly with Marina (who at that time was just a choreographer)? I remember they worked a little with Zaharov (the coach that originally put them together), but I got the impression that they worked with him only at the very end of their training, and they just wanted him to look over what they couldn't see for themselves. I also got the impression that G&G pretty much knew what they needed to do to make sure their technique was top-notch -- they just needed someone who could put together a good program for them.

 

[Tonichelle]

ultimately, the skater...

yes they need the coach and choreographer... but they aren't out there skating that program in that compeition. The skater takes everything they've learned from multiple people and they have to translate that into success.

 

[Mafke]

That's an easy one, after the skater the coach is most important and only then can choreographers and others have any influence.

The greatest choreography in the world won't save a program if the skater doesn't deliver the technical elements which is the job of the coach.

Choreography can decide things only when competitors are in the same ballpark technically.

In SLC in 2002 Yagudin and Plushenko were close technically and choreography probably gave the LP to Yagudin (since Plushenko had very, very little in that department).

In 2006 Plushenko was the only one to deliver the jumps in both SP and LP and so his complete lack of anything remotely resembling choreography didn't matter in the slightest.

 

[bekalc]

Interesting question. When G&G trained for the 94 Olympics, didn't they train mostly with Marina (who at that time was just a choreographer)? I remember they worked a little with Zaharov (the coach that originally put them together), but I got the impression that they worked with him only at the very end of their training, and they just wanted him to look over what they couldn't see for themselves. I also got the impression that G&G pretty much knew what they needed to do to make sure their technique was top-notch -- they just needed someone who could put together a good program for them.

Yes, but G & G were very experienced by then. They were already Olympic champions and 3 time world champions (maybe more worlds)...So they really already had great technique. Katya in her book said that Sergei was planning on coaching after they were done skating, and that he would have actually made a really good coach.

 

[all that]

Yes, but G & G were very experienced by then. They were already Olympic champions and 3 time world champions (maybe more worlds)...So they really already had great technique. Katya in her book said that Sergei was planning on coaching after they were done skating, and that he would have actually made a really good coach.

Yes. My point is that there can be a time when a coach is not necessary. But has anyone actually choreographed a competitive program on their own?

Now that I think about it...did Stephanie Rosenthal choreograph that hip-hop routine she did a few years ago on her own? Can't remember the music...was it Rock-It?

 

[Fredegunda]

I prefer to know who the choreographer is more than who the coach is, and I would like to read some comments from others on this.

Joe

I also have to say that I prefer to know the choreographer, since I like watching skating for the artistry. Seeing a textbook triple salchow is somehow not as a moving - to me - as seeing an emotionally charged program, and then I always want to know who created that program. However, I don't want to say that one is more important than the other. Without the technique instilled by the coach (at least up to a certain level; the G&G example is a good one), perhaps the skater would not be able to execute the choreography. On the other hand, you can have great technique and terrible choreography.

I am surprised that no one has brought up Michelle Kwan yet when it comes to the importance of a coach. Wasn't there speculation that she lost the gold in SLC because she came without a coach?

 

[mskater93]

The person who won the PSA award for best choreographed program this year did it himself. It was fabulous too! Braden Overett made me not hate to have to listen to PotC.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Braden Overett!!! If you've ever seen him skate (and even mess up) you will say he is a skater's skater. I'm sure he could get into any Dance Company of his choice..

Joe

 

[twinsissv]

That's an easy one, after the skater the coach is most important and only then can choreographers and others have any influence.

The greatest choreography in the world won't save a program if the skater doesn't deliver the technical elements which is the job of the coach.

Choreography can decide things only when competitors are in the same ballpark technically.

Beautifully stated!

 

[Tinymavy15]

i think that chreograper need more credit. once you are at a certian level you pretty much knw how to do the jumps. the chreographer is so important at the senior level. Look at Michelle. great coach, but it was only after she started working with Lori that she became a champion.

 

[manleywoman]

I think it's the skater. Skaters with real charisma can pull off bad choreography and bad technique. (cough*baiul*cough)

 

[Ladskater]

This is quite a question. One could say it begins with the parents who want to start their child in a skating program. Then the desire has to come from within the skater to want to be a champion - which takes motivation, hard work and dedication. Coaches of course who may or may not take full credit play a roll along the way in recoginizing talent and developing the skater. In the earlier days of skating the coach or "skating pro" as we called them were pretty much the only connection a skater had to development - now they have choreographers, coaches, off ice trainers, consultants for costumes - you name it. Toller Cranston talks about this in his book "Zero Tollerance." It was much more simple in say the days when figures counted. Now it is quite complex but no less the same - it pretty much comes down to the desire of the skater to want to compete. I would say most skaters are winners just by being there.

 

[mskater93]

Some of the best programs are those skaters put together themselves. Braden Overett's programs are two of those. Tugba Karademir also can just whip out an exhibition piece if she likes the music she has to skate to. She skated a benefit at our rink and cut the music right before coming here. She whipped the program out in a 60 minute session the day of and it was, of course, marvelous.

Honestly, good programs are often home grown (between the skater and coach or choreographer) because the skater and the music match and the steps are clear to a skater. I didn't believe that until I cut my FS music for this year and then the program went together. Easily. I am usually a three month girl for getting the program even skate-able. This one was 4 days. It has rough spots and a couple of inconsistent elements that disappear from time to time in run throughs, but it's way far ahead of any program my coach and I have put together previously.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Choreography can decide things only when competitors are in the same ballpark technically.

I agree and only at the Senior level as another poster put it.

Judging singles would be best served if the the contest was as it is in Diving. A selection of tricks to be judged. If you follow the threads, many posters are interested in only 3As for the Ladies, and Quads for the Men.

So why bother with the music? Let the Exhibitions show the flow of skating.

Joe

 

[twinsissv]

I agree and only at the Senior level as another poster put it.

Judging singles would be best served if the the contest was as it is in Diving. A selection of tricks to be judged. If you follow the threads, many posters are interested in only 3As for the Ladies, and Quads for the Men.

So why bother with the music? Let the Exhibitions show the flow of skating.

Joe

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Thanks, Joe. But the original post credit for this statement goes to Mafke. I was only quoting.

 

[Mathman]

f you think about it, the whole concept of "choreographing" a sports contest is pretty strange.

As for the ISU judging system, when I look at the marks that skaters receive in the "choreography" box, it does not seem to me that the skaters with interesting choreography score any higher than those with not much choreography at all.

 

[hockeyfan228]

Braden Overett!!! If you've ever seen him skate (and even mess up) you will say he is a skater's skater. I'm sure he could get into any Dance Company of his choice..

Joe

He's a fabulous mover, and I still fume at how low his presentation scores were at Nationals in Portland.