2020-21 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[Skatesocs]

she looks good. can't wait to see her compete this weekend.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CHE_bqjKmsl/

I really can't remember, and being too lazy right now. Did she always use to pick up her foot like that on her stroking?

I think it's because people would never have noticed it significantly until it was pointed out to them. The musics are just so different and the step sequence looks so right on both musics that I would never have paid closer attention.

I don't know about that. I thought the SP one didn't match at all.

And in general I think a lot of people reuse clusters across two programs, with some new moves thrown in specifically for the body movement requirements, typically to reflect that program's music slightly better.

 

[Jontor]

Kostornaia without a 3A won’t win against a cleanish layout with three 3As though. (With or without a 3Lz.) The math is incorrect as is often the case when people try to do these sort of calculations.

How is the math incorrect?
If we change the GOE to +4 for Kostornaia's 2A's the score at NHK would still be Kostornaia 232.42 vs Kihira 231.84.

 

[Novalis]

How is the math incorrect?
If we change the GOE to +4 for Kostornaia's 2A's the score at NHK would still be Kostornaia 232.42 vs Kihira 231.84.

How clean was Rika here?

 

[vesperalvioletta]

I really can't remember, and being too lazy right now. Did she always use to pick up her foot like that on her stroking?


I don't know about that. I thought the SP one didn't match at all.

And in general I think a lot of people reuse clusters across two programs, with some new moves thrown in specifically for the body movement requirements, typically to reflect that program's music slightly better.

She picked up her foot like that on crossovers last year too. I didn't look back farther than that.

 

[Amei]

How is the math incorrect?
If we change the GOE to +4 for Kostornaia's 2A's the score at NHK would still be Kostornaia 232.42 vs Kihira 231.84.

The "problem" with the math is the assumption she gets max GOE, a double axel is the minimum axel done at that level how often is it given max GOE.

 

[Jontor]

How clean was Rika here?

Her short was clean with a 3A and she scored 79.89 points.
Her long had a < on a 3T combo, and level 3 on steps, no Lutz, but two clean 3A's. score 151.95

 

[Jontor]

The "problem" with the math is the assumption she gets max GOE, a double axel is the minimum axel done at that level how often is it given max GOE.

The message you just quoted has not max GOE, it has +4.

 

[Zora]

I think it's because people would never have noticed it significantly until it was pointed out to them. The musics are just so different and the step sequence looks so right on both musics that I would never have paid closer attention.

I wouldn't have noticed it either. But that's because these days all step sequences have the same elements. I can't name them, because I'm no expert, but every skater includes them in their step sequences, just in different order (not in Kolyada's case). I know this step sequence wouldn't score very well these days, but I miss step sequences like that.

About Kihira and Kostornaia:
Kihira is a great jumper, but Kostornaia is flying in her jumps. It is a rare quality and I'm glad it is rewarded. It's like Mao Asada and Yuna Kim back in the days.

 

[Happy Skates]

Kostornaia's 3A really was a game changer - or was it?
What would have happened if she didn't have her 3A last season? Let's find out!

I have changed every 3A to a 2A (with +5 GOE, her 2A's are excellent).
And as she can't do three 2A's in the free, her 3A+2T combo I have changed to a 3Lz+2T combo (I'm sure that was what the Eteri team would do) and with the same GOE as she scored with the 3A+2T.

Finlandia Trophy:
Short: No 3A, the score is the same
Long: 3A+2T 11.97 --> 3Lz+2T 9.17
Long: 3A< 6.49 --> 2A 4.95
Old score 234.84 --> New score 230.50.
Tuktamysheva was 2nd with 212.53 so Kostornaia would have won anyway.

Internationaux de France:
Short: 3A< 6.13 --> 2A 4.95
Long: 3A+2T 11.59 --> 3Lz+2T 8.89
Long: 3A 10.63 --> 2A 4.95
Old score 236.00 --> New score 226.44
Zagitova was 2nd with 216.06 so Kostornaia would have won anyway

NHK Trophy:
Short: 3A 10.40 --> 2A 4.95
Long: 3A+2T 11.81 --> 3Lz+2T 9.05
Long: 3A< 3.66 --> 2A 4.95 (this was a bad 3A, she actually lost points on this one)
Old score: 240.00 --> New score 233.08
Kihira was 2nd with 231.84 so Kostornaia would have won anyway, but it was close!

Grand Prix Final:
Short: 3A 10.97 --> 2A 4.95
Long: 3A+2T 10.79 --> 3Lz+2T 8.30
Long: 3A 10.74 --> 2A 4.95
Old score 247.59 --> New score 233.29
Shcherbakova was 2nd with 240.92 and Trusova 3rd with 233.18 so Kostornaia would have dropped to 2nd just an inch ahead of Trusova.

Europeans:
Short: 3A 10.63 --> 2A 4.95
Long: 3A+2T 12.27 --> 3Lz+2T 9.39
Long: 3A 10.29 --> 2A 4.95
Old score 240.81 --> New score 226.91
Shcherbakova was 2nd with 237.76 and Trusova 3rd with 225.34 so Kostornaia would have dropped to 2nd

RusNats:
Short: 3A 11.66 --> 2A 4.95
Long: 3A+2T 12.73 --> 3Lz+2T 9.73
Long: 3A 11.89 --> 2A 4.95
Old score 259.83 --> New score 243.18
Trusova was 3rd with 226.34 so Kostornaia was safely in 2nd place anyway

Conclusion:
Without the 3A, Kostornaia would have lost her Grand Prix Final and European titles to Shcherbakova. All the other results remains the same.
What's impressive is that without a 3A she would still have beaten Trusova every time. And it's even more impressive that she beats Kihira who had three 3A's at NHK. That's the power of Kostornaia, and it shows how important every single element is. Kostornaia is the GOE grabber!

You have failed to take into account the PCS boost that doing a 3A gets you. With those boosts added to your calculations, Kihira would've beat her at NHK and Trusova would've beat her at Europeans, at least.

 

[Skatesocs]

You have failed to take into account the PCS boost that doing a 3A gets you.

'Course he has. There is no exact formula to predict it.

 

[yume]

It's like Mao Asada and Yuna Kim back in the days.

Exactly.
Even with big BV advantage like in 2007 gpf free, Mao barely won the program.
Quite annoying.

Just that there is isn't that gap in jump quality and Rika is the one with a true lutz.

 

[sclloyd]

And it’s not like Rika’s quality is bad anyway. The gap between her quality and Alyona’s is nowhere near as high as the difference in GOE suggests and shouldn’t be enough to give an Alyona with no triple axel the win over a clean Rika with three triple axels.

I’m sure I’m not the only one who thinks this... I think the gap is right where it should be. Aliona, with or without a 3A has better quality than Kihira in almost every element... I’d give the I-spin to Kihira, MAYBE a few other marks. But Kihira always seems as though she is stretching herself to interpret properly. She falls in and out of the performance, especially nearing the tough elements and right after. It’s not a cohesive program for me. Aliona’s performance skills far eclipse this. Her character is that of the performance until she drops her final pose. This immersion of character and performance is not a quality we see in Kihira (or really any other skater except maybe in Kamila’s Girl on Ball/Exogenesis before the nerves of the season hit her) and imo it deserves to be rewarded. Pull any still from a Kihira program and the emotion of the face is almost always the same. Pull a still from an Aliona program and there is a range of them, each equally convincing. This is why I find a disconnect from myself in Anna’s skating as well. She is no doubt of superb musicality but every program I feel she is expressing the same emotion. I was impressed with her Stage 1 performance because the final portion of the free skate was so different for her, but she failed to deliver these feelings again in Stage 3. And Aliona, for whatever reason, innate talent, that she took acting classes when she was younger, has no issues with this. And she should have higher PCS because of it. It draws the audience in.

 

[Scott512]

I was on one of the Russian Sports sites (plushyfan doesn't like this site) and it was alarming I saw a headline that said wada may ban Russia four years from the Olympics. Whaaaaaat? Are they still going through this more than four years later after Russia had the 2016 Summer Games ruin for them and the 2018 Winter Games ruined for them? Is Russia's best chance to compete as something like OAR again? Can you imagine if there was no Russian figure skating at the next Winter Olympics?

As for World Championships in figure skating does wada have control over that too?

I just hope we don't have a situation with Russia's greatest athletes the figure skater have to pay the price for what their athletics department did.

 

[silveruskate]

Why are we discussing Rika so much here?

 

[NadezhdaNadya]

You are incorrect. Kostornaia's FS layout as of test skate 2019:
2A
3Lz+2T
2A
3Lo
3F+3T x
3F+1eu+3S x
3Lz x

This is very interesting. Because both the 3Lz and 3F are repeated.
While It seems that during Medvedeva and Zagitova era the triple-triple combinationations were more important than they are today. This is why Medvedeva had 3F-3T and 3S-3T. Which means that she was repeating the 3F and 3T and not the 3Lz and 3F.
By the way, which approach gives more points? Probably the one that has 3Lz-2T and 3F-3T?
And why Zagitova did not do 3Lz-3Lo, 3F-3T and 2A-2T-2Lo instead of 3Lz-3Lo, 2A-3T and 3F-2T-2Lo at the Olympics?

 

[silveruskate]

This is very interesting. Because both the 3Lz and 3F are repeated.
While It seems that during Medvedeva and Zagitova era the triple-triple combinationations were more important than they are today. This is why Medvedeva had 3F-3T and 3S-3T. Which means that she was repeating the 3F and 3T and not the 3Lz and 3F.
By the way, which approach gives more points? Probably the one that has 3Lz-2T and 3F-3T?
And why Zagitova did not do 3Lz-3Lo, 3F-3T and 2A-2T-2Lo instead of 3Lz-3Lo, 2A-3T and 3F-2T-2Lo at the Olympics?

I think 2A-3T is normally easier because of the flow you get from the first jump, and also less risky. Evgenia's most solid jump is 3S so she does a 3S-3T (and maybe it sounds more impressive). Alina did 3Lz-3T the next year, but the only reason I can think why is to look more impressive.

 

[Jontor]

This is very interesting. Because both the 3Lz and 3F are repeated.
While It seems that during Medvedeva and Zagitova era the triple-triple combinationations were more important than they are today. This is why Medvedeva had 3F-3T and 3S-3T. Which means that she was repeating the 3F and 3T and not the 3Lz and 3F.
By the way, which approach gives more points? Probably the one that has 3Lz-2T and 3F-3T?
And why Zagitova did not do 3Lz-3Lo, 3F-3T and 2A-2T-2Lo instead of 3Lz-3Lo, 2A-3T and 3F-2T-2Lo at the Olympics?

As the BV for the different triples are:
3Lz 5.90
3F 5.30
3Lo 4.90
3S 4.30
3T 4.20

...it is always best to repeat the Lutz and Flip as they give the most points.
In combinations you only get GOE for the most difficult jump, so in a 2A+3T you get GOE on the 3T, while a 3F+3T you get GOE on the 3F.

 

[NadezhdaNadya]

I think 2A-3T is normally easier because of the flow you get from the first jump, and also less risky. Evgenia's most solid jump is 3S so she does a 3S-3T (and maybe it sounds more impressive). Alina did 3Lz-3T the next year, but the only reason I can think why is to look more impressive.

Exactly. It would be more impressive If Alina did 3Lz-Lo, 3F-3T and 2A-2T-2Lo at the Olympics and not 3Lz-Lo, 2A-3T and 3F-2T-2Lo. Is it because Evgenia was already doing 3F-3T? So she did not to do one of her trademark combinations?
Next year Alina was doing both 3Lz-3Lo and 3Lz-3T, but it was not easy for because the mechanics of these combinations are quite different. In the end her 3Lz-3Lo suffered because of this.

 

[JazzUp]

seems like the attacks on Russian fs instagram accounts continue:

 

[silveruskate]

Exactly. It would be more impressive If Alina did 3Lz-Lo, 3F-3T and 2A-2T-2Lo at the Olympics and not 3Lz-Lo, 2A-3T and 3F-2T-2Lo. Is it because Evgenia was already doing 3F-3T? So she did not to do one of her trademark combinations?
Next year Alina was doing both 3Lz-3Lo and 3Lz-3T, but it was not easy for because the mechanics of these combinations are quite different. In the end her 3Lz-3Lo suffered because of this.

No, I don't get why she would take that risk during the Olympic season. It was the right decision.