North American competitive system lacking | Page 2 | Golden Skate

North American competitive system lacking

Actually I was more puzzled by why Tessa and Scott and Meryl and Charlie were national and international champs for almost a decade. 10 years is a lot of time for athletes and somehow nobody was competitive enough to push out these veterans.
Tessa & Scott and Meryl & Charlie dominated the entire world during their competitive tenures. That says nothing about North America; nobody else was able to beat them either (other than Gabriella & Guillaume a couple of times).

Moreover, you seem to be approaching this from the perspective that longevity is anomalous, but in disciplines like ice dance it is not by any means.
 
Well, none of the top 3 are Usain Bolts of figure skating unfortunately.
Nathan Chen is undefeted since the 2017-18 season and is currently on a 13-0 streak in major international competition. (Granted, 13 is not 45. Still ...)

There is also a middle ground between one person dominating his sport as opposed to a revolving door of king for a day. It can also be exciting for the fans when there is a long-term rivalry at the top that can go either way in any given competition. Yagudin versus Plushenko, Yuna Kim and Mao Asada.

Well, may the best person win. The only thing that makes me cautious about the current youth movement in ladies figure skating is this. What we are witnessing is evidence that, when it comes to female figure skaters, whatever an 18-year-old can do a 16-year-old can do better. Whatever a 16-year-old can do, whtch out for the 14-year-olds. Does this mean that figure skating, at least on the ladies' side, is a child's game (like double-Dutch rope skipping, for example) and not to be taken seriously as a real sport? Are children just natuarally "higher, faster, stronger" in terms of the particular skills required for success in this sport?
 
Small talent pool despite huge population (???)
To me that's the biggest reason and there's several reasons why our talent pool is so small compared to countries like Russia.

Awful scouting and No development system.
Yes. But like another person already said: There's only so much that can be done if there isn't a lot of talent to scout or develop in the first place.


The problem with Learn to Skate is it is discouraging. I've seen kids who taught themselves to do an axel on the ice, but no no no, can't move to level 3 Basic until you get that mowhawk. Can't do the spiral? Gonna have to hold you back.

You also have internet armchair analysts that scream bloody murder if you're not a "well-rounded" skater according to their standards.

And then, after Learn To Skate-boom, into expensive private lessons and the Wallet Shock.
In Russia it seems kids are grouped by age, taught in groups, (long past basic skills groups) and the kids seem to be having a heck of a lot more fun. But skating is a larger part of Russian culture.

We used to have group lessons for FS levels at our rink when I was a kid. This is when the rink was still ISI and not USFSA. But this was 2004 and probably part of the Michelle Kwan boom.
I remember having a lot of fun in the group classes, even though I was "too old" compared to all of the other kids in the group. But it had a competitive vibe because everyone was trying to do an element better than the rest of the group. All of us still took private lessons because we still needed that individual help, but the group element helped drive the competitive spirit to improve. At least for me it did, since I was too old to be friends with any of those kids. I'm sure the friendship element for them helped them stay though. I see this all the time in my ballet school and the owners/teachers know it. They'll put kids who are pretty behind in more advanced classes because they're trying desperately to keep people in classes based on age. If they absolutely do have to put them in a lower level for awhile, they bump them up to the proper age group as soon as possible because they know kids LEAVE if they have no friends in class and they're only going to make friends if they're with kids their own age. There's big population difference between the ballet studio and the rink. The rink has a big LTS population, but after that, we're pretty damn small. We just don't have the numbers we had in 2004 to really form any age-matched and skill-matched group classes. Whereas the ballet classes are overflowing with kids (even with multiple schools in town to choose from). Before someone screams "expenses!", as someone who is paying for both ballet and skating stuff, the skating stuff in my area is Waaaaay cheaper than the ballet stuff. A huge part of that is my rink is very cheap. I think in a big city, the rink/coaching costs would equal the ballet costs. The ballet school is charging normal rates, but my rink is severely under-charging and yet we still have a tiny population of skaters. Ballet is popular, everyone knows about it. Figure skating is that weird step-child hidden behind hockey that everyone forgets even exists. Any of those millions of people paying for a great ballet education could have used that on figure skating instead, but they don't. And maybe that's partly opportunity. In ballet, you can potentially join a company as a dancer and get PAID, but ballet dancers retire young too. It's not a life-long career unless you become a ballet teacher. And dancer pay is terrible, you can't survive on it alone, so dancers aren't really choosing a great career that ends soon and pays terrible. It's not much different from figure skating, but it's still a very popular choice to become a dancer and join a company.

I'm not strictly talking about why we don't have more champions, but why we just don't have a larger pool of skaters to select from at all. I know it gets more expensive the more you compete, but figure skating just isn't that popular to begin with, even at a more recreational level.

In North America we don’t really care if we don’t have a champion contender year after year.
Well I care, but I guess the rest of the USA doesn't.
 
Nathan Chen is undefeted since the 2017-18 season and is currently on a 13-0 streak in major international competition. (Granted, 13 is not 45. Still ...)

There is also a middle ground between one person dominating his sport as opposed to a revolving door of king for a day. It can also be exciting for the fans when there is a long-term rivalry at the top that can go either way in any given competition. Yagudin versus Plushenko, Yuna Kim and Mao Asada.

Well, may the best person win. The only thing that makes me cautious about the current youth movement in ladies figure skating is this. What we are witnessing is evidence that, when it comes to female figure skaters, whatever an 18-year-old can do a 16-year-old can do better. Whatever a 16-year-old can do, whtch out for the 14-year-olds. Does this mean that figure skating, at least on the ladies' side, is a child's game (like double-Dutch rope skipping, for example) and not to be taken seriously as a real sport? Are children just natuarally "higher, faster, stronger" in terms of the particular skills required for success in this sport?
Since the user brought up ladies as examples specifically, I also referred to US top 3 ladies as not being Usains :)

I don’t think it’s a child’s game. It’s just an unprecedented development of talent in Russia.

Plus prime age in men is around 20-24, when they have done growing and built up all the muscle, not 15, so he isn’t the best example of longevity in men. Had he been unbeaten as he is now at 27-30, we’d be talking.
 
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You fail to mention the bronze medalist, and 2018 world champion, Kaetlyn Osmond, who was attending her second Olympics and not a teenager.

She was the 2016 world bronze medalist.

Kaitlyn Weaver - her and Andrew placed top 5 at worlds from 2011-2019 and have 3 world medals, I would hardly call them BAD.

say what you want, but Canada had more medals than Russia in 2018 and won the team event, they must have done something right. In a few more Olympic cycles they could be back in a position to medal at the team event again.
Longetivity should only be to describe skaters who win (Gold Medal) at international events and continuing to perform at that level. Nathan Chen? Sure. Tessa and Scott? Sure. But winning Nationals for the tenth time doesn't say anything about that skater. Only tells me that that country is really bad with developing talents. Ashley Wagner winning or being near at the top for a decade and then only managing to be 3rd place at Worlda is disappointing. Who remembers the 2nd plave finishers anyway?
 
Longetivity should only be to describe skaters who win (Gold Medal) at international events and continuing to perform at that level. Nathan Chen? Sure. Tessa and Scott? Sure. But winning Nationals for the tenth time doesn't say anything about that skater. Only tells me that that country is really bad with developing talents. Ashley Wagner winning or being near at the top for a decade and then only managing to be 3rd place at Worlda is disappointing. Who remembers the 2nd plave finishers anyway?
It's maybe too harsh but surely it is a different task to be "longevity skater" for someone on a place of e. g. Carolina Kostner than for someone in Russia or even in Japan. I would also say that I don't think many "longevity" stars of the past were facing such competition as there is now.
 
Longetivity should only be to describe skaters who win (Gold Medal) at international events and continuing to perform at that level. Nathan Chen? Sure. Tessa and Scott? Sure. But winning Nationals for the tenth time doesn't say anything about that skater. Only tells me that that country is really bad with developing talents. Ashley Wagner winning or being near at the top for a decade and then only managing to be 3rd place at Worlda is disappointing. Who remembers the 2nd plave finishers anyway?

Me✋ And I care about them deeply.:) I don't even follow the ladies that closely, but I think Ashley had a great career.

But to my mind that is the issue. The base from one which argues is what one values. And what one values is necessarily subjective.🤷‍♀️
 
My comments here: I like watching young women skate more than little girls. And: I like to follow skaters for a longer period of time. And stating a competitive system is lacking just because the US have mostly men and dancers in the world top instead of baby girls seems a bit odd to me.
One thing is a system and a different one thing is exceptional talent. The thing that some country finds an exceptional talent like no doubt Nathan Chen is doesn't mean the country has good competitive (or any other) system that prepares the athletes.

Take my country. We have found exceptional talent for speed skating in Martina Sáblíková. Does that make our system good? Definitely not. There is not a single stable long track in the Czech Republic. The preparation is partially improvisation, partially skating on frozen lakes, or if there is a good sum of money from state or sponsors, the athletes can go to train abroad. That's anything but good system. Of course the other thing is that building an effective system for a minor sport like speed skaing is here (if it weren't for Sáblíková and one or two of the team mates hardly anyone would be interested in that sport and when she retires, it will be forgotten), but that's a different question, the fact is that just because we have one Sáblíková that doesn't mean we have good system and we are not lacking anything in speed skating.

Of course in comparison the figure skating in the United States has "slightly" different position, but still I don't think that just from the sole fact that US has Nathan Chen doesn't mean the system there is OK. Well, even his coach (and probably most succesful coach of the US skaters currently) is a foreigner. There are other countries that touched figue skating top titles thanks to one or several exceptional individuals, but when those individuals are gone, it's out of the top. Like Germany without Savchenko/Massot, France without James/Cipres. There is hardly anyone who could replace them and without systematic preparation of the young talents I don't see them taking those positions back soon.
 
Lots of people? Really, if all you remember is the gold medalists you aren't following this sport very closely.
Really? You remember athletes who make it to the highest stage and then fall short of winning? Regardless of the sport, if you're not the gold medallist, you don't deserve to go down in history.

If your biggest accomplishment is a bronze/silver it's just a legacy of falling short of winning.
 
Really? You remember athletes who make it to the highest stage and then fall short of winning? Regardless of the sport, if you're not the gold medallist, you don't deserve to go down in history.

If your biggest accomplishment is a bronze/silver it's just a legacy of falling short of winning.

Two words. Toller. Cranston.

He went down in history far beyond many who won the gold.

And no one deserved it more. :)
 
Really? You remember athletes who make it to the highest stage and then fall short of winning? Regardless of the sport, if you're not the gold medallist, you don't deserve to go down in history.

If your biggest accomplishment is a bronze/silver it's just a legacy of falling short of winning.
That’s such a terrible way to look at things. There’s more to being memorable and going down in history than just a gold medal.

Surya Bonaly: no world or Olympic golds but her backflip is legendary and she’s the first woman ever to attempt a quad toe in competition!

Midori Ito: she has one world gold but only ended up with silver at the Olympics, but as the first woman to land a triple axel she’s had a massive impact on the sport

Tonya Harding: zero worlds or Olympic golds but even scandal aside she’s the first American woman to land a triple axel! She’ll always have a place in the history books for that.

Mao Asada and Carolina Kostner: both have won gold medals at worlds but both went to multiple Olympics and failed to capture the gold. That doesn’t diminish their legacy and impact on the sport

Will the 3A not be worthy of going down in history if Kamila or Rika or someone else wins gold in Beijing? Even though Alyona’s set multiple world records and Sasha and Anna have pushed the technical level of the sport to a whole new level? And there’s a very good chance at least two of them will never win a World’s Gold either (especially if Worlds is canceled again).

Hell, Michelle Kwan who’s essentially the biggest Anerican name in skating never managed to win gold at the Olympics. And this is just some of the lafies

The Olympics are just one competition every four years. There’s luck involved in being just the right age so that they happen when you’re at your best and the smallest misstep can completely take you out of the running for gold. On the flip side one good competition can be all it takes for a skater to win but that doesn’t mean they’ll have a big impact on the sport or a long career that they’ll be remembered for. Adelina Sotnikova and Sarah Hughes for example I’d argue are much less remembered than some of the skaters they beat to win Olympic Gold and they’re not the only ones.
 
That’s such a terrible way to look at things. There’s more to being memorable and going down in history than just a gold medal.

Surya Bonaly: no world or Olympic golds but her backflip is legendary and she’s the first woman ever to attempt a quad toe in competition!

Midori Ito: she has one world gold but only ended up with silver at the Olympics, but as the first woman to land a triple axel she’s had a massive impact on the sport

Tonya Harding: zero worlds or Olympic golds but even scandal aside she’s the first American woman to land a triple axel! She’ll always have a place in the history books for that.

Mao Asada and Carolina Kostner: both have won gold medals at worlds but both went to multiple Olympics and failed to capture the gold. That doesn’t diminish their legacy and impact on the sport

Will the 3A not be worthy of going down in history if Kamila or Rika or someone else wins gold in Beijing? Even though Alyona’s set multiple world records and Sasha and Anna have pushed the technical level of the sport to a whole new level? And there’s a very good chance at least two of them will never win a World’s Gold either (especially if Worlds is canceled again).

Hell, Michelle Kwan who’s essentially the biggest Anerican name in skating never managed to win gold at the Olympics. And this is just some of the lafies

The Olympics are just one competition every four years. There’s luck involved in being just the right age so that they happen when you’re at your best and the smallest misstep can completely take you out of the running for gold. On the flip side one good competition can be all it takes for a skater to win but that doesn’t mean they’ll have a big impact on the sport or a long career that they’ll be remembered for. Adelina Sotnikova and Sarah Hughes for example I’d argue are much less remembered than some of the skaters they beat to win Olympic Gold and they’re not the only ones.
I acknowledge that the competitors changed sonething in that current season, but I don't think they are more than a footnote in history.
 
It's maybe too harsh but surely it is a different task to be "longevity skater" for someone on a place of e. g. Carolina Kostner than for someone in Russia or even in Japan. I would also say that I don't think many "longevity" stars of the past were facing such competition as there is now.
I don't see why we have to choose one or the other. I am glad there are skaters like Carolina Kostner who brough distinction and grace to the sport year after year. Or 9-time Hungarian champion Julia Sebestyen. :love: I am also glad that the young Russian ladies formerly known as the three A's shot into the sky in a burst of fireworks -- and that more of the same is on the horizon with the next crop of prodigies.

It's all good.
 
So who are you again, hulksmash1337? You do not represent well if you are forgetting what Canadian women have done the last Olympic quad when others thought it impossible. Yes, we are rebuilding but we certainly had our successes and will again.
Just how I choose to watch sports I guess. I respect breakthroughs but I only remember the champions. Doesn't mean I don't enjoy watching the programs, just that I feel disappointed for the region.
 
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