Are skaters losing room for creativity?

[Mathman]

They are already taking out jumping passes so why would people still complain? Nothing is enough until there is no jumps at all left or what? Or jumps don't count and we are back to the corrupt 6.0 era when points were handed out willy-nilly? Good grief.

Naw. Taking out a jumping pass, adding a jumping pass, shortening the program, lengthening the program, raising the PCS factors, lowering the PCS factors -- none of this will bring about any drastic changes in the sport. The winner will be the skater who delivers the highest tech content with top quality and without neglecting esthetic considerations. That's my opinion.

 

[Mathman]

Well, I don't think the way I wrote it meant exclusively on their own but...

I think that this is certainly true, especially at the highest levels when skaters gain enough self-understanding and self-confidence to take a hand in designing their own programs. Michelle Kwan, in her last full competitive season, chose Bolero for her LP and contracted with Christopher Dean to do the choreography. Michelle was never completely comfortable with it and little by little over the course of the season pretty much dropped the Dean choreography altogether.

 

[TontoK]

I've been giving this some thought, because I think it's an interesting question.

We all talk about how the programs look similar, but I think they HAVE to look similar.

Seven jumping passes. Four in the first half, and three later on. There are only so many possibilities for fitting the other requirements in. Three spins, one footwok, and one choreo. There are not a whole lot of options. I guess you could start with all three spins, or you could put the footwork as the first element, or even the choreo sequence. Nothing is stopping anyone from doing that, although I think it would be difficult to create a storyline, and I honestly don't think I'd like a program that doesn't have them sprinkled around.

 

[gkelly]

Why not take away the 'subjectivity' excuse and actually place judges on the panel who possess a deep understanding of performance quality (theater, dance, costume, music/ musicality) and movement quality (physicality and body mechanics). Such judges do not need to have a background in figure skating, but should ultimately gain a full understanding of the sport. I think having judges who know the origins and dynamics of performance, music, costume, and movement quality, would be very helpful in reframing and improving figure skating judging.

This is an interesting proposal. Let's think through how it could work.

Where would these new judges who have deep understanding of performance quality and movement quality come from?

Presumably, from the worlds of professional performing arts.

How do you entice them to devote weeks of their time every year, learning about figure skating while offering their outside expertise, at middle competitive levels in their home countries (if there is a thriving competitive skating culture there) and around the world for years before being ready to judge the biggest events, with all expenses paid but next to no additional compensation?

If they have full-time jobs in in performing arts, would they want to give up all those weeks each year to go judge skating competitions?

If not, how do they prove their expertise?

What kinds of arts expertise are necessary to qualify prospective artistic judges of skating even to be considered, and which are just nice-to-have?

Should this system start from the top down, splitting the judging panel only at the most important events (ISU Championships, Olympics, Grand Prix) with outside experts paid to study the skating-specific knowledge they will need to apply along with their outside expertise only at a couple of major events, so only a fairly small but well-compensated corps of experts is used for this purpose at the most important events?

Or should these experts be used for all international competitions and for national-level events in countries that have large enough fields and large enough budgets to merit bringing in outside experts, at least for senior and junior levels?

Should they be paid while the technical judges who come up through the skating judge pipeline remain volunteers?

How does an outside arts expert get into the corps of arts-expert judges? What kind of arts expertise do they need to demonstrate before applying to become a judge? Should they already have as much knowledge about skating technique and skating history as, say, an average skating fan? Or is it enough just to have watched and enjoyed Olympic skating competitions every 4 years? Or maybe less than that, if there's enough money or travel perks or prestige involved that arts experts who are not making a good living at their art are happy to start from scratch in a new field (skating judging) to earn those rewards?

What kind of training about skating specifics do they need to learn before being assigned to judge important skating competitions?

Are individuals who are both professional performing arts experts (or highly experienced amateurs) and also former skaters/existing skating officials able to join the arts-judging side of the judging corps, perhaps in addition to also having a technical judging appointment? (Similar to how some judges have both singles/pairs and ice dance appointments and others have one or the other but not both. Or maybe also synchronized skating)

And, significantly, how do we get a bunch of arts experts from different artistic disciplines, each with their own training and personal artistic priorities, on the same page as each other regarding how to reward different kinds of movement to music on ice?

The types of decisions they will need to make are still subjective in the sense that they are qualitative. There will still be differences of opinion about just how much better skater A was than skater B at a particular criterion, on the 1.00-10.00 scale.

Even if we trust that all members of this arts-judging corps are well trained and knowledgeable about performance and movement quality and have been given the same information as each other, and that they all have been given the same basic knowledge of what to expect from figure skating performances in particular, they're still going to disagree with each other.

I think it would be fun to imagine that we do get a bunch of arts/movement experts volunteering their time to judge skating and imagine how we would train them to understand as much as they need to understand about skating to judge meaningfully and to build a shared understanding of what to reward.

 

[TontoK]

My concern about importing non-skating judges is that what they value in their own fields may not be what we value. And, honestly, I'm always suspicious of those artsy-fartsy people. I think they veer towards the weird, just as a general rule.

I always think of those "fashion icons" who strut around in ridiculous designer clothes and clown makeup, and yet many women let them decide how they should want to look.

 

[Magill]

I don't think we talk about "artsy" people. I think what judging panels need are professional dancers. Not just ballet. Professional dancers with a thorough training in different genres and styles, including modern dance, but also understanding how you interpret music, what makes a good choreography, what is a personal style vs lack of skill etc.
As for "them" having different values than "us", oh come on, I don't think there is any "us" here. Skating fans are very different and value different things on ice. It shows in how they pick their faves.

If fans of some skaters worry their faves would not be getting the same PCS they are getting now if professional dancers were sitting on the panel. - well, no, I guess some of them wouldn't. But this is because these PCS scores are undeserved from any objective point of view.

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

I don't think we talk about "artsy" people. I think what judging panels need are professional dancers. Not just ballet. Professional dancers with a thorough training in different genres and styles, including modern dance, but also understanding how you interpret music, what makes a good choreography, what is a personal style vs lack of skill etc.
As for "them" having different values than "us", oh come on, I don't think there is any "us" here. Skating fans are very different and value different things on ice. It shows in how they pick their faves.

If fans of some skaters worry their faves would not be getting the same PCS they are getting now if professional dancers were sitting on the panel. - well, no, I guess some of them wouldn't. But this is because these PCS scores are undeserved from any objective point of view.

I think that professional dancers could help Figure Skating Judges see what they can expect and reward (or not) as technical means of proficiency, musicality etc. Judging Figure Skating needs also a knowledge of Figure Skating constraints, difficulties... which would reciprocally need a learning by these people to become judges. The greatest ever Ballet Dancer, who's the rector of one of the three great Ballet Schools in the World, who has his own class in it, who's the greatest present, perhaps ever, live Tradition of Ballet Interpretation lines (sometimes foes) and probably History of Ballet, sometimes sits as a judge in TV Figure Skating contests for kids, he's also a friend of Alexei Mishin's (it's through their acquaintance that Figure Skating spinning training devices entered the Ballet world to train tours), but I don't think that he would consider himself competent for being a full-fledged Judge in a Figure Skating competition. He wouldn't follow the (theoretical) prohibition to Judges to address the coaches of the Skaters, to begin with, some would get told off, with minute and undeniable arguments, and for everybody to hear... Now, that would be healing for some of us and would end some abuse in the Sport.

 

[gsk8]

I think what judging panels need are professional dancers. Not just ballet. Professional dancers with a thorough training in different genres and styles, including modern dance, but also understanding how you interpret music, what makes a good choreography, what is a personal style vs lack of skill etc.

That would be nice. Especially if they understand the mechanics of skating/ice dance.

 

[Mathman]

My opinion is, let professional dance judges officiate at ballroom contests. Let musicians judge musical merit. Give figure skating judges the same courtesy.

 

[TontoK]

My opinion is, let professional dance judges officiate at ballroom contests. Let musicians judge musical merit. Give figure skating judges the same courtesy.

Exactly. Why aren't we talking about letting ice dancers judge ballroom? It's the same concept, isn't it?

I don't care a bit about made-for-TV extravaganzas where they have various comics and singers judge Dancing with the Stars or some kids on ice show. Nobody cares about that anyway, at least in a serious way. But when real medals are on the line? Naw.

Now, that's not to say there's no room for collaboration. Clearly it's beneficial for skaters to work with dance choreographers and other outside experts to refine their programs. No problem with that at all. It's like when clothing designers work with athletes to insure practicality in their athleticwear.

 

[gsk8]

My opinion is, let professional dance judges officiate at ballroom contests. Let musicians judge musical merit. Give figure skating judges the same courtesy.

I don't see it as an either/or situation. Figure skating judges should absolutely remain the primary judges of figure skating. At the same time, since skating borrows heavily from dance and music, there could be value in having someone with professional dance training contribute an additional perspective on movement quality, body line, and choreography. That wouldn't diminish skating expertise—it would complement it.

 

[TontoK]

I don't see it as an either/or situation. Figure skating judges should absolutely remain the primary judges of figure skating. At the same time, since skating borrows heavily from dance and music, there could be value in having someone with professional dance training contribute an additional perspective on movement quality, body line, and choreography. That wouldn't diminish skating expertise—it would complement it.

Ballet and ballroom require a great deal of cardiovascular strength, and I'm sure those outstanding dancers incorporate that into their training. So should we have tri-athletes judge dance competitions alongside professional dance judges? You know, to evaluate who isn't flagging at the end of their routines? With calls for ballroom to be part of the Olympics, would you argue for a judging panel that specifically includes a non-dance-expertise-subset to focus on athleticism? Probably not.

I appreciate dancers for what they are, but do they really understand edge quality (or even that there ARE edges) and the technical aspects of our sport that are unique to us?

Now if we're talking about equipping figure skating judges with training specifically related to choreography and movement.... then I'm fully onboard with that.

 

[Magill]

So they judge interpretation of music, presentation and choreography without any training in it now? Is a need of such training even something to be discussed? So no wonder this part of judging is so often questioned. But even if they receive training, the problem is that no short course can teach you this, and to judge others you need to be an expert in the field yourself, not just a "somewhat trained" amateur after a short course. Especially if we are talking about judging most prestigious competitions in the field.
Usually you also need to be somewhat musical yourself to judge another's musicality, lol. Are figure skating judges specifically tested for this to be qualified as judges, or is it just taken for granted?

Professional dancers do not take extra training in figure skating to become better dancers but skaters routinely take extra training in floor dance to become better skaters. Neither cardiovascular strength nor "athleticism" (whatever the latter means) is specifically judged as a factor in dance, ballet or ballroom competitions. They may affect the performance but they are not being judged as such. While interpretation of the music, choreography and presentation are being openly judged as PCS. This makes a huge difference and that's why we need them to be judged by people who are really competent in the matter. Lack of competence makes the scoring even more wild, subjective and prone to all sorts of bias and outside pressures.

 

[yfan1]

My opinion is, let professional dance judges officiate at ballroom contests. Let musicians judge musical merit. Give figure skating judges the same courtesy.

Ballet and ballroom require a great deal of cardiovascular strength, and I'm sure those outstanding dancers incorporate that into their training. So should we have tri-athletes judge dance competitions alongside professional dance judges? You know, to evaluate who isn't flagging at the end of their routines? With calls for ballroom to be part of the Olympics, would you argue for a judging panel that specifically includes a non-dance-expertise-subset to focus on athleticism? Probably not.

I appreciate dancers for what they are, but do they really understand edge quality (or even that there ARE edges) and the technical aspects of our sport that are unique to us?

Now if we're talking about equipping figure skating judges with training specifically related to choreography and movement.... then I'm fully onboard with that.

It is, and I think this is the main part of why I wouldn't want choreographers/musicians in the judging panel either - their training and their goals are entirely different from a sport.

Dancesport Latin, btw, is already criticised for straying too far from its roots and bearing little resemblance to the social dances and artforms it drew from. So I don't really think this is a problem unique to us. If you want some form of pure artistry - and I get it, of course we all do - I suggest people find and watch those things.

I'd never say, as an example, that Curry or Kwan really compare to the outstanding artists who dedicated their entire lives to honing their art. That's fine. That's never been what we're judging.

 

[TontoK]

It is, and I think this is the main part of why I wouldn't want choreographers/musicians in the judging panel either - their training and their goals are entirely different from a sport.

Dancesport Latin, btw, is already criticised for straying too far from its roots and bearing little resemblance to the social dances and artforms it drew from. So I don't really think this is a problem unique to us. If you want some form of pure artistry - and I get it, of course we all do - I suggest people find and watch those things.

I'd never say, as an example, that Curry or Kwan really compare to the outstanding artists who dedicated their entire lives to honing their art. That's fine. That's never been what we're judging.

Way back in the day, there was a once-a-year ballroom dance competition on Public Television here in America. I always thought it was interesting, but I had no idea how a judge could differentiate one dance team from another in terms of quality and who should win. I just admired it for how pretty and glamourous it looked.

Of course, casual fans probably also have the same questions about figure skating. I suppose it takes a lot of experience to differentiate the good from the very good and the superior.