2020-21 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[[email protected]]

That new Russian lady Kaorina Sakamotova is interesting.

No need for sarcasm. I wanted to interfere when I read about "the breath of fresh air" at NHK vs. Russian Cup in the "Japanese thread" but I decided to let it go then.

 

[Mawwerg]

I think Kaori sounds great in Russian and there aren't any reasons to butch it.

 

[kirauza343]

Well, forgive me if you don't agree but I think that overall Kamilla is a better skater than Rika. So that if they both are clean with the planned content I would vote for her with no hesitation and it has little to do with the national bias. I just adore her skating.

The point is Kamila wasn’t clean. Regardless of your preference for her in a fair world with their current content a Kamila with a step out (and thus negative GOE) should not score higher than a clean Rika. Obviously you can prefer Kamila and that’s fine but in my opinion she was overscored here and I referred to Rika and Aliona’s scores for clean programs to support that opinion.

 

[RatedPG]

While Kaori did well, she would have never receive the score she received at NHK internationally for that skate. People talk about underscoring in Japan and overscoring in Russia, but I would say it is just different philosophy. In Russia, even if we can admit that the sores are somehow higher than they would be on the international competition, they are, I dare to say, equally higher, from the first to last skater. In Japan, it was obvious that they separated Kaori (and they would add Rika and Satoko probably if they would have participated) from the rest.

So while Anna, Sasha, Aliona, currently Kamila and maybe some others (Daria, Sofia in the future, possibly also Liza, though she is often losing points for some reasons discussed here from time to time) should score highly over 220 as a basic limit if they won't bomb (which if of course possible) and over 230 and even 240 if clean, I would say that for Kaori the score around 225-230 internationally is possible, but it requires an exceptional skate. So, Kaori can overscore russian skaters, but it requires many things to happen.

There is of course Rika, who could be considered a thread, in fact probably the only thread that doesn't require those "many things to happen", but I need to see her to skate to judge her chances. Satoko is, I'm sorry, out of the game and the rest of the japan ladies, plus Young You, who seemed to be another big competitor as Rika, are too inconsistent and with not many reserves in their bags that would allow them to make mistakes.

Um... Kaori at 2019 Worlds scored 76.86 in SP plus 145.97 for LP with 1F (0.51) as her only mistake. Total score received was 222.83. Had she nailed that triple flip, she would have have won the silver. Giving her the same score as Evgenia 3F (7.42) in second half, she could have scored (7.42 - 0.51 = 6.91) higher. Her technical score would have gone from 72.71 to 79.62. This would put her at 229.72 overall internationally. She could have scored higher also if she put the 2T with that Flip instead of the Lo. Therefore, judges internationally really are willing to give her this high of a score. I also like her Matrix LP better this year than 2019. Rika and Kaori can grab a medal if the top contenders make mistakes as in the Russian GP. Right now, I only see Kamila, Anna and Alexandra higher than them.

 

[flanker]

I fully agree with what you said and I understand that you meant "threat"

I'll probably never stop mistaking these two words

 

[flanker]

Um... Kaori at 2019 Worlds scored 76.86 in SP plus 145.97 for LP with 1F (0.51) as her only mistake. Total score received was 222.83. Had she nailed that triple flip, she would have have won the silver. Giving her the same score as Evgenia 3F (7.42) in second half, she could have scored (7.42 - 0.51 = 6.91) higher. Her technical score would have gone from 72.71 to 79.62. This would put her at 229.72 overall internationally. She could have scored higher also if she put the 2T with that Flip instead of the Lo. Therefore, judges internationally really are willing to give her this high of a score. I also like her Matrix LP better this year than 2019. Rika and Kaori can grab a medal if the top contenders make mistakes as in the Russian GP. Right now, I only see Kamila, Anna and Alexandra higher than them.

Note that I've written "for that skate". Which doesn't say "she is unable to score 229 internationally", but "she wouldn't score 229 for that particular skate".

 

[flanker]

The point is Kamila wasn’t clean. Regardless of your preference for her in a fair world with their current content a Kamila with a step out (and thus negative GOE) should not score higher than a clean Rika. Obviously you can prefer Kamila and that’s fine but in my opinion she was overscored here and I referred to Rika and Aliona’s scores for clean programs to support that opinion.

Clean vs. unclean, it's not a hermetically separated space, there are seven elements in the short program and if the mistake is small (like it was in this case), it's not like that 2-3 points lost on one element in comparison to the element executed by a rival are not allowed to be gained elsewhere. So yes, not clean skate can overscore a clean one. Actually it happens on a daily basis, sometimes rightfully, sometimes less rightfully.

 

[Skatesocs]

This would put her at 229.72 overall internationally.

Contributing to the OT, this is interesting though. NHK, then, actually managed to underscore her. Since she would have achieved 229.72 with a called flutz, but at NHK she scored 229.51 with two ignored flutzes.

But anyway. I don't think Sakamoto's skating should be beating the tech content we see from the top Russian ladies.

 

[yume]

Contributing to the OT, this is interesting though. NHK, then, actually managed to underscore her. Since she would have achieved 229.72 with a called flutz, but at NHK she scored 229.51 with two ignored flutzes.

But anyway. I don't think Sakamoto's skating should be beating the tech content we see from the top Russian ladies.

Her lutz didn't get called at worlds.
She just got sligthly got lower GOEs in SP. Around one point. She got three level3. With all level 4s she would have beaten her worlds score for PB (77-78).
For the FS she was scored just the same. Little difference in GOEs and that's due to the popped 3F in 2019.

 

[Skatesocs]

Her lutz didn't get called at worlds.

Never mind, then!

 

[RatedPG]

Note that I've written "for that skate". Which doesn't say "she is unable to score 229 internationally", but "she wouldn't score 229 for that particular skate".

“While Kaori did well, she would have never receive the score she received at NHK internationally for that skate.” My response was in fact to this statement of yours with “for that skate”. I just wanted to prove to you that she would score 229 “for that skate.” In fact, when she she finished her skate at NHK, I was thinking the score was going to be around 230 because I knew a flawless Kaori is around 230 based on her scoring potential at world champs the previous year. I was so disappointed she singled that triple flip at worlds and calculated that had she nailed that jump, she would have scored 229.72. This skate was even better with no mistakes and she got 229.51. I think she was scored accurately at NHK and this is the score she would have most likely received internationally “for that skate”. Don’t get mad at me .... I don’t want to fight on this thread.

 

[flanker]

“While Kaori did well, she would have never receive the score she received at NHK internationally for that skate.” My response was in fact to this statement of yours with “for that skate”. I just wanted to prove to you that she would score 229 “for that skate.” In fact, when she she finished her skate at NHK, I was thinking the score was going to be around 230 because I knew a flawless Kaori is around 230 based on her scoring potential at world champs the previous year. I was so disappointed she singled that triple flip at worlds and calculated that had she nailed that jump, she would have scored 229.72. This skate was even better with no mistakes and she got 229.51. I think she was scored accurately at NHK and this is the score she would have most likely received internationally “for that skate”. Don’t get mad at me .... I don’t want to fight on this thread.

What you were thinking is what you were thinking. I'm not mad, just disagree. That score (I mean all those +4/+5, even the choreo sequence got +2.30 GOE, never ever have seen other lady to get that, though now I see that at 2019 worlds she got 2.00 for choreo sequence, judges in Japan seem to love Kaori's choreo sequence consistently) was homecooking. IMO I think in average all her GOE points should be like 1 point lower (+3 instead +4 etc.), which would lower her GOE score for about 10 % or two points, so 78 instead of 80, that would look reasonable to me. Components are other story and here everything can happen. Of course, that's my point of view, and we can only guess what the international judges will say to that at worlds, Morana be praised it will take place.

 

[yume]

I think 77-78 pcs will make a comeback. Since i don't see Kaori's pcs deflate, judges will have to go higher for the skaters they want to score better.

 

[readernick]

What you were thinking is what you were thinking. I'm not mad, just disagree. That score (I mean all those +4/+5, even the choreo sequence got +2.30 GOE, never ever have seen other lady to get that, though now I see that at 2019 worlds she got 2.00 for choreo sequence, judges in Japan seem to love Kaori's choreo sequence consistently) was homecooking. IMO I think in average all her GOE points should be like 1 point lower (+3 instead +4 etc.), which would lower her GOE score for about 10 % or two points, so 78 instead of 80, that would look reasonable to me. Components are other story and here everything can happen. Of course, that's my point of view, and we can only guess what the international judges will say to that at worlds, Morana be praised it will take place.

Japanese judges love Kaori, but so do International judges. She always gets high PCS and GOE when clean. Like her or not (she is far from my favorite Japanese lady), she will score like that internationally with clean skates. The issue before was her lack of consistency and it appears she has conquered that. The difference between Russian judging (frankly most federations) and Japanese judging is that if the judges don't like you in Russia they give you a score you would get internationally (the favourites scores are highly increased), in Japan only the favorites score what they would internationally. (everyone else's scores are decreased) . Additionally, I have to say that objectivity looking at Kaori's jumps she does deserve the GOE she received with the obvious exception of her flutzes. If her lutzes are called internationally (and I hope they are because I like strict judging) her score will be lower, but if they aren't (and this is likely given complaints from federations when correct calls are made) this score or even slightly higher is completely possible.

 

[Amei]

Why don't you just make things easier on yourself and just write Maiia?

Good point about her inconsistency. it's hard for them to be consistent with the very difficult content they're doing.

But she's not really doing the very difficult content that the others are doing, with the exception of the quad salchow she attempts in the FS (and has yet to land) she's doing pretty standard content that the other ladies do and she's still pretty inconsistent.

Not for me. I discovered Lipnitskaya when she was 11. Her jump technique (especially that 2axel) was not strong AT ALL. It was a race which would come first: puberty or the Olympics? I never felt at ease with her skating because 'it was just a matter of time before it all ends'.

With Valieva, I think I also discovered her around 10 or 11, but her jumps always seemed so much more controlled and sound technically. I haven't felt any worries about her losing her technique once she grows. I really think she is the 'chosen one', barring injury. I'm more thinking Anna Shcherbakova when I think of Julia Lipnitskaya. I worry about Anna in a year's time. Kamila? I think she'll continue to get better and stronger.

Interesting, I'm not 1 to jump to doom and gloom a skater's jumps as being a ticking time bomb but Valieva's jumps would concern me over Shcherbakova. Valieva is more prone to wild axis's on her jumps which I would think would be more prone to problems that can show up from the typical weight distribution changes that usually occur in puberty and at this time she only does the lowest value quad where if she falls she's only getting roughly 3.75 points.

Shcherbakova prior to the pneumonia had improved her least stable quad last year, the flip, and has it consistently looking really good.

 

[rollerblade]

Dick Button would have said exactly what you did.

I remember a rant he went on years ago during one of Irina Slutskaya's performances. It was something like "how can a country with such a culture and history of ballet and the arts struggle to produce ladies with better lines, posture and extension? Why are they not better at it?"

The ladies with amazing lines, posture and extension all went to pairs.

I think there are articles mentioning Moskvina's teams training regimen includes off-ice ballet sessions, multiple times a week (or daily?). Not sure if the ladies have that sorta regimen "back in the days".

 

[TripleAxelQueens3]

Clean vs. unclean, it's not a hermetically separated space, there are seven elements in the short program and if the mistake is small (like it was in this case), it's not like that 2-3 points lost on one element in comparison to the element executed by a rival are not allowed to be gained elsewhere. So yes, not clean skate can overscore a clean one. Actually it happens on a daily basis, sometimes rightfully, sometimes less rightfully.

1. The step-out should have gotten - 2 GOE, several judges gave it -1 and 0 (+1 for good air position and -3 for step-out)
2. Her SS should not have been 9.15. I'd cap it off at 8.50 for now.
3. The 3F wasn't particularly high nor large, at a different competition +4 would be warranted, but not this one.

All that considered, she would have gotten a lower competition score. Even though Kamila has better spins because the other two have better combos, better step sequences and much better skating skills (and Rika and Alyona have good spins too).

 

[NAOTMAA]

The ladies with amazing lines, posture and extension all went to pairs.

I think there are articles mentioning Moskvina's teams training regimen includes off-ice ballet sessions, multiple times a week (or daily?). Not sure if the ladies have that sorta regimen "back in the days".

The girls do spend time the in the ballet studio but it doesn't seem the coaches place as much importance on carrying it onto the ice as they do in pairs.

I do think the up coming generation of young boys got some beautiful lines, posture and extension. Their regimen definitely looks like weekly/daily off-ice ballet training is treated as important as it is in pairs. There is definitely a number of budding artists there and hopefully the consistency comes. The young upcoming girls however still not as much but maybe if Kamila lives up to the hype it will start

 

[sparklestan]

I thought Kamila was lovely today! The 3A looks like it’s right there and the one in the warm up was phenomenal!!

But can we talk about Ksenia Tsibinova!?!??? I always thought she was a nice skater, even back in her Panova days, but she always lacked an IT-factor for me. But today I thought she was so emotive and graceful! I’d love to see her get a few international assignments in the next couple years.

 

[colormyworld240]

Japanese judges love Kaori, but so do International judges. She always gets high PCS and GOE when clean.

The international judges also love Kamila. She is the international record holder for junior PCS, I think, and junior PCS is always capped. For example: Alena, Anna, and Alina all made it into the 70s in their first international season, receiving a big boost from juniors, and their junior PCS were lower than Kamila's. Kamila is competing as a senior here, and there is no reason to expect her PCS to be much lower internationally.

Also, her jumps and spins have always gotten high GOE internationally; that's how she was able to beat Alysa with 3As and 4Lzs without having any herself. Obviously, that positive GOE on the step out shouldn't happen, this is where the overscoring happens nationally but she and Alena (and many other skaters except for Sasha apparently) have gotten lenient scores on their mistakes.

Kamila and Kaori were overscored compared to what they would receive internationally, but not by much, and I think it is fair relative to the field.