2020-21 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[Jontor]

Wait, in the context of the rest of your post this part doesn't seem to make sense?

Sasha is so far behind Anna and Kamila in PCS and GOEs she can barely win doing 4 quads to their 2, so she should do less quads?

If I've learnt anything it's that PCS and GOEs won't suddenly rise if a skater stops doing quads in order to concentrate on performing cleanly. They probably should, the rules indicate they should, but let's face it they don't. Particularly for Sasha, maybe it's her own fault, but she is the "Quad Queen" if she starts doing less quads the judges will punish her for trying to take the "easy way" out.

Maybe... maybe if she can get a 3A it might work, but that's risky right now.

I disagree. Judges want clean programs and if you are clean your PCS reputation rises and you will up your PCS.

And as I explained, for now, Sasha needs 3 quads plus the 3A, which is better than 4 quads. The 3A gives her edge in both the short and long, the 4th quad doesn't. But all that is a Olympic season scenario. What she needs right now is to stabilize her fantastic skate from Nationals and sloooowly build on that. She needs clean skates. She said it herself in the interview afterwards, she couldn't even remember the last time she skated clean.

And it's more safe and sustainable to train 2 quads and a 3A then training 5 quads and a 3A. Sasha needs to pick.

 

[Mathman]

To me, it is not 100% certain that Trusova will ever develop a triple Axel. This is not an easy jump. Not every skater can master it no matter how hard they train.

On the other hand, she has already shown that she can do a variety of quads. She could opt for an LP with 4 quads.This might be her best chance at overcoming a deficit from the SP to skaters with a triple Axel, plus the GOES that Anna and Kamila likely will command.

Sure, a clean program will score higher than a program that leaves points on the table. Four quads, clean program -- that's the ticket!

 

[Flying Feijoa]

I found it surprisingly stange being refered to by my username here but considering we dont know eachothers real names I guess it would be even more strange if someone got it right

Sorry, I wasn't sure how otherwise to differentiate multiple posters discussing this topic without direct quoting
Some people have referred to me as FF in this thread so I figured it was common practice (though a bit odd, because Fan Fests). My real name is unfortunately too distinctive...

 

[Greengemmonster]

Yes, that 3Lz+3Lo combo save that Alina did! One of the highlights ever IMO. I was screaming out loud when she did it. And it was a beauty too!

Omg I loved that!!! And I thought she was brilliant for knowing to bail on the first attempt!!!

One of those defining moments that gave her the gold.

 

[chasingneverland]

Auto-correct at it's best

I didn't even notice that and I LOVE it haha. I'm leaving it haha.

 

[chasingneverland]

I found it surprisingly stange being refered to by my username here but considering we dont know eachothers real names I guess it would be even more strange if someone got it right

Haha yeah I was v confused the first time someone said chasing...I was like oooh that's me lol.

 

[Jontor]

To me, it is not 100% certain that Trusova will ever develop a triple Axel. This is not an easy jump. Not every skater can master it no matter how hard they train.

On the other hand, she has already shown that she can do a variety of quads. She could opt for an LP with 4 quads.This might be her best chance at overcoming a deficit from the SP to skaters with a triple Axel, plus the GOES that Anna and Kamila likely will command.

Sure, a clean program will score higher than a program that leaves points on the table. Four quads, clean program -- that's the ticket!

Fair point. And I agree that Sasha may never get that 3A so she MUST go for that 4 quad program.

I think some skating fans are overestimating Sasha's skills and abilities.
Yes she landed 4 clean quads in Japan almost two years ago, and she may land 4 quads in her next competition. But if a skater can do something clean once every twenty competitions, it is a sign that those jumps are waaay beyond her limitations.
Landing 4 clean quads is even difficult for the likes of Yuzuru Hanyu and Shoma Uno.
This may change in the future, but currently Sasha doesn't seem to belong to that league.

And we mustn't forget that she had a HIGHER tech score here at RusNats with two 4Lzs than at Japan Open which is the only time she landed four quads. And yes, people tend to overestimate the power of quads. It's not like every quad is like 10-15 points added, you always have to take out another jump and a good 3Lz is 7-8 points.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

i would be surprised if they didn't change it for the next cycle.

At this point, it should be allowed. I think more women have now landed quads than had landed the 3A when that was approved as an axel jump option in the SP. Hopefully it doesn't result in careers at the top ending at 16 because skaters lose the jump shortly thereafter.

 

[sinus]

At this point, it should be allowed. I think more women have now landed quads than had landed the 3A when that was approved as an axel jump option in the SP. Hopefully it doesn't result in careers at the top ending at 16 because skaters lose the jump shortly thereafter.

3A was approved as an axel jump option in the SP when Alexander Lakernik was a chairman of the Technical Committee. Now it's Fabio Bianchetti. He'd rather implement the Artistic Program without any jumps at all.

 

[Good Vibes Only]

To me, it is not 100% certain that Trusova will ever develop a triple Axel. This is not an easy jump. Not every skater can master it no matter how hard they train.

On the other hand, she has already shown that she can do a variety of quads. She could opt for an LP with 4 quads.This might be her best chance at overcoming a deficit from the SP to skaters with a triple Axel, plus the GOES that Anna and Kamila likely will command.

Sure, a clean program will score higher than a program that leaves points on the table. Four quads, clean program -- that's the ticket!

imo her best option is to try to get the triple axel more stable so that she doesn’t have to work as hard in the free, doing four quads in a program must be tiring and on top of that she has to skate remotely clean to catch the girls jumping triple axels in the short. if she can land a triple axel in the short, she won’t have as much pressure on her to skate clean in the free or include as many quads.

 

[Jontor]

Is it just me or do y'all find it weird when top skaters lose levels in spins and steps and get low GOEs in choreo sequence consistently?

Like the rules are known to everyone. The bullets are there. Hit them and you'll get the levels but some skaters are just "okay" with consistently losing levels??? Regarding steps, can the choreographer, skater and coach not see that a certain step sequence does not have the difficulty of a level 4?? I don't think this is rocket science. It's especially upsetting because these skaters are perfectly capable of doing level 4 sequences. I think choreo sequence probably is the most upsetting because it's literally just free points. Just do a basic spiral in 3 different ways or an ina Bauer and bam, +2 goe. Why do they just choose to lose points?

Step sequences are hard and it's rare to get level 4. One slip and you are immediately down at level 3.

Level 4 RusNats short:
Shcherbakova, Valieva, Talalaikina (yay Maria!)

Level 4 RusNats long:
Shcherbakova, Valieva, Usacheva, Nugumanova, Molchanova
-------------
Level 2 RusNats short:
Khromykh, Onishchenko, Tarakanova, Kostina

Level 2 RusNats long:
Khromykh, Tuktamysheva, Tarakanova, Guliakova, Onishchenko, Kostina
-------------
All the others not mentioned got level 3

 

[Baron Vladimir]

Yeah, Kromykh and Tarakanova getting level 2 both times with very good skating skills is telling you everything you need to know about the topic. Having something is one thing. To do it - is another

 

[Amei]

Fair point. And I agree that Sasha may never get that 3A so she MUST go for that 4 quad program.

Well she has landed the triple axel in her 2 of her 3 competition attempts this season (though messy), at both cup events she still made better than if she landed a double axel as most of the time its a 1-1.5 point GOE+ for a cleanly landed double which wouldn't even give her 5 points.

Russian Cup 2: 5.60 points after GOE deduction
Russian Cup 2: 6.24 points after GOE deduction

And we mustn't forget that she had a HIGHER tech score here at RusNats with two 4Lzs than at Japan Open which is the only time she landed four quads. And yes, people tend to overestimate the power of quads. It's not like every quad is like 10-15 points added, you always have to take out another jump and a good 3Lz is 7-8 points.

But Russian Nationals is generally a bit more generous on the GOE for the top skaters. But she should really consider keeping the lutz as her repeated quad, honestly I've always been confused at why she didn't repeat it since her lutz is generally quite good.

	Nationals 2021	Japan Open	Difference in GOE from Japan open to Nationals
CCoSP	Lvl 4, BV 3.5; GOE: 1.00	Lvl 4, BV 3.5; GOE: .65	+.35
ChSq	BV 3.0; GOE: 1.57	BV 3.0; GOE: .71	+.86
FCSp	Lvl 3, BV 2.80; GOE: .80	Lvl 4, BV 3.20; GOE: .76	+.04
StSq	Lvl 3, BV 3.30; GOE: 1.23	Lvl 3, BV 3.30; GOE: .75	+.48
FCCoSp	Lvl 4, BV 3.5; GOE: 1.10	Lvl 4, BV 3.5; GOE: .65	+.45
Jump	4lz+3T, BV 15.7; GOE: 3.61	4S, BV 9.7; GOE: 1.52
Jump	4lz, BV 11.5; GOE: 2.63	4lz, BV 11.5; GOE: 2.96	-.33
Jump	2a, BV 3.30; GOE: .85	4T+3T, BV 13.7; GOE: .81
Jump	2a, BV 3.30; GOE: .94	2a, BV 3.30; GOE: .75	+.19 or +.10 (across both double axels done at Nationals)
Jump*	3lz+3Lo, BV 11.88; GOE: 2.19	4T+eu+3s, BV 15.73; GOE: -.41
Jump*	3F+eu+3s, BV 11.11; GOE: .68	3lz+3Lo, BV 10.80; GOE: -.59 (under-rotation)
Jump*	3lz, BV 6.49; GOE: 1.77	3lz, BV 6.49; GOE: 1.26	+.51

 

[colormyworld240]

It takes a certain skater to think after making mistakes. it's not a stratergy for everybody - but I've met many people (who jump quads not triples) who are able to change their jump layout on the fly.

At the Olympics where everyone is nervous, the time before skating is crucial to preparing mentally and calming yourself. Number crunching the layouts of the skaters before (especially if they're all skating in the same group) and changing your layout last minute isn't going to help the nerves.

Please do not be intentionally obtuse. I'm sure a quad is significantly more difficult than adding brackets and counters to the steps or doing a choreo that looks visually pleasing. Why in God's name is Alyona getting a level 2 on Step sequence when she has one of the best skating skills in the world? Why does Trusova continue to use the same step sequence in her free even though it keeps getting the same level 3? (Also same as last year, Anna and Trusova got level 3 almost half of the season with little change in the choreo). Why does Trusova keeps losing levels in her spins even though she's perfectly capable of all level 4 spins?

It doesn't take much to lose levels and I don't think any skater is unable to count their revolutions/steps. For example, Anna and Alena both made big mistakes on spins this season, both almost falling out of them. There can be smaller issues like losing their balance/centring enough that they're unable to complete the position. I'm pretty sure they're trying to do everything in the moment to keep their levels. Same with steps - you can lose levels from just a small loss of balance or misstep. And it's not that uncommon for larger issues; both Anna and Alena have fallen during their steps before. But just because the problem isn't as visible doesn't mean they're not choreographed to be level 4.

 

[Amei]

It doesn't take much to lose levels and I don't think any skater is unable to count their revolutions/steps. For example, Anna and Alena both made big mistakes on spins this season, both almost falling out of them. There can be smaller issues like losing their balance/centring enough that they're unable to complete the position. I'm pretty sure they're trying to do everything in the moment to keep their levels. Same with steps - you can lose levels from just a small loss of balance or misstep. And it's not that uncommon for larger issues; both Anna and Alena have fallen during their steps before. But just because the problem isn't as visible doesn't mean they're not choreographed to be level 4.

Well there's a difference between having an error and stumbling in a step sequence or spin and losing levels occasionally and skaters that habitually getting lower levels.

 

[Jontor]

Well she has landed the triple axel in her 2 of her 3 competition attempts this season (though messy), at both cup events she still made better than if she landed a double axel as most of the time its a 1-1.5 point GOE+ for a cleanly landed double which wouldn't even give her 5 points.

Russian Cup 2: 5.60 points after GOE deduction
Russian Cup 2: 6.24 points after GOE deduction



But Russian Nationals is generally a bit more generous on the GOE for the top skaters. But she should really consider keeping the lutz as her repeated quad, honestly I've always been confused at why she didn't repeat it since her lutz is generally quite good.

	Nationals 2021	Japan Open	Difference in GOE from Japan open to Nationals
CCoSP	Lvl 4, BV 3.5; GOE: 1.00	Lvl 4, BV 3.5; GOE: .65	+.35
ChSq	BV 3.0; GOE: 1.57	BV 3.0; GOE: .71	+.86
FCSp	Lvl 3, BV 2.80; GOE: .80	Lvl 4, BV 3.20; GOE: .76	+.04
StSq	Lvl 3, BV 3.30; GOE: 1.23	Lvl 3, BV 3.30; GOE: .75	+.48
FCCoSp	Lvl 4, BV 3.5; GOE: 1.10	Lvl 4, BV 3.5; GOE: .65	+.45
Jump	4lz+3T, BV 15.7; GOE: 3.61	4S, BV 9.7; GOE: 1.52
Jump	4lz, BV 11.5; GOE: 2.63	4lz, BV 11.5; GOE: 2.96	-.33
Jump	2a, BV 3.30; GOE: .85	4T+3T, BV 13.7; GOE: .81
Jump	2a, BV 3.30; GOE: .94	2a, BV 3.30; GOE: .75	+.19 or +.10 (across both double axels done at Nationals)
Jump*	3lz+3Lo, BV 11.88; GOE: 2.19	4T+eu+3s, BV 15.73; GOE: -.41
Jump*	3F+eu+3s, BV 11.11; GOE: .68	3lz+3Lo, BV 10.80; GOE: -.59 (under-rotation)
Jump*	3lz, BV 6.49; GOE: 1.77	3lz, BV 6.49; GOE: 1.26	+.51

And all in all RusNats was +0.24 better in tech than at JO (there is a small error in your table, the FCSp at JO was GOE 0.73)

The two extra quads at JO gave her
4S instead of 2A - +7.07
4T+3S combo instead of 3F+3S combo - +3.53

But she loses at JO
4T+3T instead of 4Lz+3T - -4.80
3Lz+3Lo UR at JO - -3.86

The rest of the difference is about +2 extra points in GOE for all the other elements combined at RusNats which is fair as that performance was much better overall.

The four landed quads at JO looks impressive on paper, but it really wasn't. Her layout at RusNats had a smarter layout with two 4Lzs and she was clean. And her score at RusNats could have been better if she didn't have that ! call on the Flip and lost levels on steps and a spin.

Overall I think the comparison shows that it's much better to go smart and clean (RusNats) than quad frantic and just clean-ish (JO).

 

[flanker]

Nice vid:

 

[renebaebae]

Step sequences are hard and it's rare to get level 4. One slip and you are immediately down at level 3.

Level 4 RusNats short:
Shcherbakova, Valieva, Talalaikina (yay Maria!)

Level 4 RusNats long:
Shcherbakova, Valieva, Usacheva, Nugumanova, Molchanova
-------------
Level 2 RusNats short:
Khromykh, Onishchenko, Tarakanova, Kostina

Level 2 RusNats long:
Khromykh, Tuktamysheva, Tarakanova, Guliakova, Onishchenko, Kostina
-------------
All the others not mentioned got level 3

Honestly, the judging is another issue at Rus Nats. I don't think Tarakanova should've gotten level 2 in the long.

But your post also highlights my issue. Why are so few girls getting level 4s when everyone knows the rules?

At the Olympics where everyone is nervous, the time before skating is crucial to preparing mentally and calming yourself. Number crunching the layouts of the skaters before (especially if they're all skating in the same group) and changing your layout last minute isn't going to help the nerves.


It doesn't take much to lose levels and I don't think any skater is unable to count their revolutions/steps. For example, Anna and Alena both made big mistakes on spins this season, both almost falling out of them. There can be smaller issues like losing their balance/centring enough that they're unable to complete the position. I'm pretty sure they're trying to do everything in the moment to keep their levels. Same with steps - you can lose levels from just a small loss of balance or misstep. And it's not that uncommon for larger issues; both Anna and Alena have fallen during their steps before. But just because the problem isn't as visible doesn't mean they're not choreographed to be level 4.

It's fine if they stumble or they lose balance or some other mistake happens to them to lose levels. Mistakes happen. What I'm upset at are people who do not get level 4s consistently when they execute their elements to the best of the choreography and yet do nothing to change/make it better.

Or people who have frankly ugly choreo sequences/barely there or none at all (like Medvedeva's world bronze medal performance)

Why do they not like points?

 

[sinus]

I don't think Tarakanova should've gotten level 2 in the long.

It is not a matter of 'think'. It is a matter of 'watch and count'.

 

[Giltedge]

With so many singles ladies & girls acquiring quads, and occasional migration from singles to pairs, surely a quad sbs is only a matter of time? (This idle question is perhaps slightly out of place here.) This is assuming an equally capable partner. It's not against the rules, I suppose? Is there any history of success with 3A sbs?