2020-21 U.S. Pairs Figure Skating

[SkateTM0102]

??? Anyways Iam really sensingthatthejudges like and rooting for Knerim and Frazier. In fact they look likeworldmedallists and Canada canforgett staying ahead of the US. They don't h ave a chance. This US pairis favoured in every way and has goten their act together so quickly.

I wonder how Chris really feels. Looks like this is goingto work out for alexa- another triptotheolympics and another olympic medal

I also wonder sometimes how Chris really feels. My guess would be that he has mixed feelings. I am sure he is happy that this is working out for her and that he is getting to do what he wants to do now. However, seeing the success their having and seeing his record get broken by a "new" team, I am sure is difficult as well. It would be difficult even if it wasn't his wife and her new partner. The good news is that from all accounts Chris and Alexa have a great relationship and he truly does seem supportive of her!

 

[ice coverage]

Articles previewing Nats have some answers for you.
I do not have links to the articles at my fingertips, and I do not remember how many articles I saw. But IIRC, they were from "usual suspect" sources -- such as Fan Zone, TeamUSA.org, NBC, Olympic Channel?

I only glanced at the articles ... IIRC, Calalang works on jumps with one of Raf's assistants.

At least one article covered the topic of Mozer's work with K/F, but I do not trust my memory to try to give details.

... During the NBCSN coverage, Jessica mentioned in an interview that she's been 'working with Raf's assistant' on reworking her jump technique. So that partly answers my earlier question in this thread. ...But what about Brian?

And once again, Brian needs some help too, so is he also working with 'Raf's assistant'?

Do only Alexa/Brandon rate working directly with Raf? ...

FYIs:

One of the recent articles re Great Park pairs made reference -- when discussing Raf, IIRC? -- to the COVID limitation as to how many people can be on ice at the same time.
I do not know whether Brian also is working with one of Raf's assistants.
If(?) Brian is not, maybe(?) the COVID limitation could be a reason (not necessarily the only reason?)??

One of the recent articles said that Alexa is working with two of Raf's assistants, whose names were given.

It is easy to recall that one of them was Brezina, but the other name was not familiar to me and I do not remember it. What I did recognize is that the unfamiliar-to-me name is the same assistant of Raf's who works with Jessica (per the article that I alluded to in a post before the NBCSN broadcast of the Pairs SP).​

I do not remember whether or not the article about Alexa working with Brezina and the other assistant said anything one way or the other as to whether or not Alexa works directly with Raf in addition.​

(It's not a big deal when you "overlook" my responses to your questions -- but it does show that I should not waste my time trying to go back to check which specific articles had which pieces of information.)

---

ETA:

Lest anyone wonder: At present, I am not worried that Jessica/Brian are being short-changed -- but if I believed that were the case, it would bother me. I prefer them over K/F, although I like Brandon (especially) and Alexa too.​

 

[moonvine]

I also wonder sometimes how Chris really feels. My guess would be that he has mixed feelings. I am sure he is happy that this is working out for her and that he is getting to do what he wants to do now. However, seeing the success their having and seeing his record get broken by a "new" team, I am sure is difficult as well. It would be difficult even if it wasn't his wife and her new partner. The good news is that from all accounts Chris and Alexa have a great relationship and he truly does seem supportive of her!

I hope he is happy. It was his decision. I thought it was pretty rash as they had just won Nationals. It isn’t like she would have ever sought a new partner no matter what.

 

[SkateTM0102]

I hope he is happy. It was his decision. I thought it was pretty rash as they had just won Nationals. It isn’t like she would have ever sought a new partner no matter what.

I very much hope this is as well! He seems super supportive and happy for them on social media!

 

[skylark]

6 coaches seems to be a huge amount. I don’t know the answer to your question but Is that a normal amount of coaches to have?

I don't have special knowledge on this point, but I agree with you that 6 coaches seems to be a huge number.

It's interesting to think about why. Historically, so many of the top skaters had one coach, who had plenty of assistants, also likely working with them, but who were largely invisible. Think of Peggy Fleming with Carlo Fossi, Tai & Randy with John Nicks, Michelle Kwan and, later, Evan Lysacek, with Frank Carroll. Then, sometimes other coaches were visible in K&C and named, but clearly secondary.

I wonder if maybe Alexa and Brandon are finding it invigorating, and helpful, to have different coaches focusing on a specialized area of their work. I think it must be so! Raf for jumps, Mozer for the plan, steadiness, confidence; Chris for (my guess would be lifts, but what do I know? LOL); Christine Binder for -- I have no idea, but maybe she or someone else focuses on transitions? And then Jenni and Todd are the main coaches. I remember Frank Carroll was always known for creating the whole package. John Nicks seems to have helped his skaters advance in the areas of artistry and presentation.

It used to be that dedicated fans, at least, could recognize the coach's vision. And maybe that's inch by inch changing. Like for instance, Brian Orser's vision wouldn't be complete without Tracy Wilson's vision being an integral part.

So maybe all of this reflects a more collaborative approach to coaching recently. Also, I think it would be very individual: some skaters would prefer to work with one main coach. Alexa and Brandon seem to be thriving with all six coaches having a metaphorical thumb in the pie!

 

[skylark]

I hope he is happy. It was his decision. I thought it was pretty rash as they had just won Nationals. It isn’t like she would have ever sought a new partner no matter what.

It's true that they'd just won Nationals, but it didn't seem rash to me, because I'd been empathizing with Chris for quite some time at that point, and he'd seemed increasingly miserable at competitions. Even after the SP at nationals which they won brilliantly, Chris seemed relieved and keeping up appearances, rather than elated. (just my opinion.) It would be normal for him to have mixed feelings now, but I think Chris is so firmly grounded in his identity and clearly has passions and interests outside the skating world that he's got that added perspective, and he seems to like coaching and the opportunity to use his expertise to help other skaters. I think about the interviews where Alexa said she felt she'd gotten him back after they made the decision. Just as happily, I think he got himself back. Again, just my opinions.

 

[moonvine]

It's true that they'd just won Nationals, but it didn't seem rash to me, because I'd been empathizing with Chris for quite some time at that point, and he'd seemed increasingly miserable at competitions. Even after the SP at nationals which they won brilliantly, Chris seemed relieved and keeping up appearances, rather than elated. (just my opinion.) It would be normal for him to have mixed feelings now, but I think Chris is so firmly grounded in his identity and clearly has passions and interests outside the skating world that he's got that added perspective, and he seems to like coaching and the opportunity to use his expertise to help other skaters. I think about the interviews where Alexa said she felt she'd gotten him back after they made the decision. Just as happily, I think he got himself back. Again, just my opinions.

I would consider quitting in the middle of a competition to be rash. But hey what do I know? Never been an elite skater.

 

[Spiralgraph]

It might be rash, yes, but if Chris was really unhappy then, I'd be worried about Alexa's safety in lifts and throws with a partner who couldn't perform at at his best level.

 

[skylark]

I would consider quitting in the middle of a competition to be rash. But hey what do I know? Never been an elite skater.

If I remember correctly, Alexa said afterwards that she and Chris had discussed things at length ahead of 4CC, and they'd decided that if at any time Chris said he wanted to stop, that's what they would do. And, that's what happened. Alexa said that at the end of their SP, while they were still on the ice, Chris said, "I'm done," and Alexa said, "okay." So yes, it looked rash -- which was exactly what all the consternation and talk about them was at the time. But if you believe Alexa, and I do, then it wasn't rash. I don't have to be an elite skater to read what she said.

If I have a chance, I'll look for the article later and post the link if I find it.

ETA: Found it. (correction: found one.) This article talks about Chris's increasing depression over the weeks ahead of 4CC.

"Four Continents was really strange," Alexa said. "In our three practices in Seoul, Chris was physically there but he wasn't present. It was like I was skating with a ghost.

"When I took my spot in the short [program], I looked at his eyes and he wasn't there. It was like skating with a body, not my husband."

After errors on their side-by-side jumps, Chris fell on the entry to their side-by-side spin and could do nothing but stand next to his spinning partner.

"I'm done," Chris told Alexa even before leaving the ice.

Knierims’ Bond Even Stronger as Chris Steps Away from Skating - U.S. Figure Skating Fan Zone

In the Knierims' love story, this is merely another chapter, hardly an end.

usfigureskatingfanzone.com

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

IMO, Jess/Brian and Ash/Timothy are hugely impacted by not having been able to experience the 2020 Worlds opportunity (especially for Jess/Brian in what would have been a debut when they had great momentum). Meanwhile, Alexa/Brandon, as a new team, have come on strong with well-matched athleticism and mutual desire. Alexa/Brandon also both exhibit joy in not having to worry about whether their partner is going to land their jumps (which was the case with their former partners, who suffered from injuries in their final competitive seasons).

Ashley's remarks were similar, something like Mozer makes her calm by having her pay attention to just one small thing.

I wish that Ashley could actually draw on that advice to help calm her nerves during this difficult season where it continues to look like U.S. fed is not willing to support them, and are now more behind Lu/Mitrofanov at C-G/L's expense. I agree with L/M's placement, but not as much with their score and relatively high PCS (which they will NOT get internationally at this point).

C-G/L have had trouble with Timothy's injury and sufficient training time. But also, it looks like tightness and nerves on Ashley's part. I'm sure there are still some members of U.S. fed who are behind Ash/Timothy, but they are not receiving full support at this point.

I suspect U.S. fed could be behind the move by L/M & C/H coaches to the Skating Club of Boston. And now we see the push for those teams over other skaters. IMO, Chan/Howe, Serafini/Tran, and McBeath/Bartholomay are in a group that are tightly competitive. I think C/H have improved a bit, but S/T (especially Merv) and M/B have a bit better presentation skills (more refinement) and speed. C/H have long lines and are well-matched physically, but lack an emotional connection. There's not much chemistry to that partnership, aside from their similar looks and skill on some elements.

IMO, C/H receiving 60+ and slightly higher PCS than McBeath/Bart, with both having a fall in their programs is wrong. So, since M/B are new and the 3rd Meno/Sand team, they get short shrift politically!? Serafini/Tran have talent that needs to be further nurtured. Livia should be receiving help with stretch and ballet classes. S/T should not be so harshly picked away at on the marks to keep them behind C/H. If there's no vote of confidence behind S/T, what's the point? This is where I disagree with U.S. fed's antiquated mindset and lack of political savvy and strategic thinking that needs to be mustered to benefit all of the athletes and the entire U.S. pairs discipline!

That bad attitude by U.S. fed officials shows up in their mistreatment of Deanna, and of Josh Santillan & Jessica Pfund. Release those skaters and better nurture the skaters you have with a more forward-thinking mindset.

 

[SorrySkater]

IMO, it seems a bit disingenuous to say that C-G/L have been dropped by the US federation because they placed 4th in the short program. Ashley fell on a side by side jump and visibly two-footed a landing on a throw. As in, so visible even I could see it. Ice flew. And, has also been pointed out, their 3 twist isn’t as good as for the pairs ahead of them. C-G/L’s twist appeared to me to be lower and clunkier than all the pairs ahead of them. C/J, especially, have a sublime 3 twist and definitely deserved their placement.

I agree that when they are on, C-G/L can be stunning to watch. However, they were not on for the short program. IMO, the placements are correct and are not some giant conspiracy to hold them back.

 

[Dogo]

I just hope Jessica won't be too harsh on herself

They have been training hard and sometimes you don't have good days. There is just something so very likeable with C/J. Both in the way how they skate and present themselves as well as how they care for each other. I like their personalities and they both seem very invested in becoming better one step at a time. I'm happy for Alexa and Brandon, but I'm rooting for a beautiful and tenacious Jessica and a confident and strong Brian to break it big in the international circuit and make it to the Olympics

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

IMO, it seems a bit disingenuous to say that C-G/L have been dropped by the US federation because they placed 4th in the short program. Ashley fell on a side by side jump and visibly two-footed a landing on a throw. As in, so visible even I could see it. Ice flew. And, has also been pointed out, their 3 twist isn’t as good as for the pairs ahead of them. C-G/L’s twist appeared to me to be lower and clunkier than all the pairs ahead of them. C/J, especially, have a sublime 3 twist and definitely deserved their placement.

I agree that when they are on, C-G/L can be stunning to watch. However, they were not on for the short program. IMO, the placements are correct and are not some giant conspiracy to hold them back.

I'm not saying 'a giant conspiracy.' That's a cliche critique against looking at things in a less than cliche, superficial way. I didn't say I had a problem with the placements between L/M and C-G/L, just with some of the scoring. I am saying L/M are a bit over-scored on PCS. I enjoy watching them, and it's great to see them gaining consistency. Let's be honest that they still have lots of room for growth. The fact that L/M lost second place by a whisker in the fp should not just be due to Misha's fall on a sbs jump. L/M should not be receiving overly high PCS for presentation. They still need to work on their connection, polish and presentation skills. Their twist is nice, but not spectacular. Yes, L/M need to be nurtured and pushed forward. The problem is the antiquated way the sport is set up which limits competitive opportunities.

Also, the over-hype and over-favoritism needs to cease. It's not necessary. U.S. pairs has chutzpah and depth. Support all teams, especially top veteran teams to be their best. That's what will help the discipline to soar. Getting behind only one team with over-hype doesn't benefit U.S. pairs in the long run. We need two top teams to compete at their best level at Worlds to have a chance to gain three spots in order to give other talented U.S. teams a chance to shine and to further grow the U.S. discipline for the future.

Ash & Timothy showed much improvement in their fp. Ash was so much better on her throw landings and she also completed and got around fully on her sbs jumps. Timothy seemed to be worried for Ash on the first jumping pass, and lost focus thus he failed to complete his own landing. Still, C-G/L's fp has come a long way. I love these new costumes for this program so much better than the stark blue they wore during the ISP Challenge.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Here's an article by Lynn Rutherford after the sp. I wonder if the skating journalists check out skating forum commentary. Most likely. Maybe Rutherford took some cues from comments in the sp thread. It's very important to recognize Jenni & Todd and their mentor, John Nicks. Not just kowtow to Nina Mozer:
At Great Park Ice, it takes a village to build a pairs’ team - OlympicTalk | NBC Sports

And yet, Rutherford's knowledge of U.S. pairs history is questionable. I hope someone corrects her error. Tai & Randy are not the first nor the only U.S. pair team to win Worlds. They are the second. The Kennedy siblings were the first U.S. team and the first North American (non-European) team to win a World championships: in 1950. Study figure skating history for goodness sake! We'd all be a lot more knowledgeable if we did.

Begin with checking out Wikipedia's Worlds and Olympics stats for figure skating. Read books on figure skating history, including the excellent book on Tai & Randy: Forever Two As One, written in collaboration with Martha Lowder Kimball.

World Figure Skating Championships - Wikipedia

List of Olympic medalists in figure skating - Wikipedia

Karol Kennedy - Wikipedia

Peter Kennedy (figure skater) - Wikipedia

John Nicks - Wikipedia (Nicks also coached Tai & Randy, and he competed against the Kennedys)

Jenni Meno - Wikipedia

Todd Sand - Wikipedia

Forever Two as One by Tai Babilonia (goodreads.com)

Figure Skating: A HISTORY by James R. Hines (goodreads.com)

 

[moonvine]

Here's an article by Lynn Rutherford after the sp. I wonder if the skating journalists check out skating forum commentary. Most likely. Maybe Rutherford took some cues from comments in the sp thread. It's very important to recognize Jenni & Todd and their mentor, John Nicks. Not just kowtow to Nina Mozer:
At Great Park Ice, it takes a village to build a pairs’ team - OlympicTalk | NBC Sports

And yet, Rutherford's knowledge of U.S. pairs history is questionable. I hope someone corrects her error. Tai & Randy are not the first nor the only U.S. pair team to win Worlds. They are the second. The Kennedy siblings were the first U.S. team and the first North American (non-European) team to win a World championships: in 1950. Study figure skating history for goodness sake! We'd all be a lot more knowledgeable if we did.

Begin with checking out Wikipedia's Worlds and Olympics stats for figure skating. Read books on figure skating history, including the excellent book on Tai & Randy: Forever Two As One, written in collaboration with Martha Lowder Kimball.

World Figure Skating Championships - Wikipedia

List of Olympic medalists in figure skating - Wikipedia

Karol Kennedy - Wikipedia

Peter Kennedy (figure skater) - Wikipedia

John Nicks - Wikipedia (Nicks also coached Tai & Randy, and he competed against the Kennedys)

Jenni Meno - Wikipedia

Todd Sand - Wikipedia

Forever Two as One by Tai Babilonia (goodreads.com)

Figure Skating: A HISTORY by James R. Hines (goodreads.com)

Forever Two As One is amazing. A US Pairs team who had a career of how many decades? They skated for the Queen!

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

I just hope Jessica won't be too harsh on herself

They have been training hard and sometimes you don't have good days. There is just something so very likeable with C/J. Both in the way how they skate and present themselves as well as how they care for each other. I like their personalities and they both seem very invested in becoming better one step at a time. I'm happy for Alexa and Brandon, but I'm rooting for a beautiful and tenacious Jessica and a confident and strong Brian to break it big in the international circuit and make it to the Olympics

Yep, I agree. C/J have to believe in themselves and focus. They can't allow themselves to be distracted by the increased attention on their training mates. That's an overly superficial media spotlight which skaters have to navigate but not get carried away with or distracted by. Jess & Brian should separate their support for their teammates from their own singular focus on improving their weaknesses. Don't listen to the outside chatter. Stay in their own lane and focus. Take charge of their careers too. If a total reworking of technique is going to bother them this badly on the jumps, then take a different, less stressful approach to improving those jumps. And by all means, get some sports counseling to manage their anxiety going into jumps. Talk to Paul Wylie and Brian Boitano. Make things simple and single-focused, and believe in themselves.

Stop allowing jump hiccoughs to get into their head and distract their focus from the rest of their program. Quite clearly, C/J have the best SS and their 3-twist is even a tad better than K/F's at this point. K/F are super athletic and appear to be consistent on the jumps, but a lot of things need tweaking and polishing. They also need to find out who they are together as a pair so they better not allow over-praise to get into their heads. They need to stay focused just as much as C/J do. I hope their coaches can keep everything tempered and down-to-earth for these two teams and indeed all of their teams. Katie and Nate have good basics and a great connection, and they should not be neglected or downplayed either.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Another thing for journalists and fans with less fs history knowledge to keep in mind is that while the U.S. pairs discipline only has two teams who won World gold, they have numerous teams who've won Worlds and Olympics silver and bronze medals. That's nothing to look lightly on or dismiss in significance. The rise of Russian dominance in pairs is also a factor in the medal stats.

For pairs athletes having trouble with sbs jumps, I would think that keeping focused on your own jump is the first step. Stop worrying about your partner I would say. And even stop worrying about matching unison perfectly. Get the jumps down and gain confidence, then work on fixing unison and placement. That's what K/F seem to be doing. They have consistency on landing the jumps so they trust each other and don't have to look over their shoulders at each other. Now they just need to incrementally work on spacing and unison.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

(It's not a big deal when you "overlook" my responses to your questions -- but it does show that I should not waste my time trying to go back to check which specific articles had which pieces of information.)

It's not easy to keep up with posts on this board. Sadly, it is what it is, especially around this time of competition season. Sorry I missed your posts. It's not intentional.

When I read the articles in question, I noticed the names of the assistants. The one you're referring to is hard to pronounce and to spell, so I'm not going to try. Michal Brezina is recognizable and easy to remember. I'm glad to hear that Brezina is working with Raf in the coaching sphere these days. I didn't see a retirement announcement from him, but I guess he's moved on. Brezina and his wife had a baby not so long ago, which is really nice.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

At present, I am not worried that Jessica/Brian are being short-changed

It's not about C/J being short-changed. C/J's scores were fair based on how they performed. My observations are about the singular media and U.S. fed focus being centered upon K/F, in part because they both have strong pairs skills and both are U.S. National champions with their former partners. They have more name recognition internationally than do Jess & Brian, and they're about 4 or so years older. There's nothing wrong with any of that. I just worry about the athletes getting too distracted by outside chatter and buzz and over-praise. That's why I like Brandon's response in the interview after the fp. I'll bet both he and Alexa know they have to bear down and not get ahead of themselves, nor allow the media hype to turn into pressure that rattles them.

From what I've gleaned, Jess & Alexa are supportive friends, and all of the top U.S. pairs are friendly and respectful toward each other. I don't anticipate problems in their rink or between them. But still, the media nonsense fostered by U.S. fed, and the fan chatter can be a source of distraction and angst. Even if an athlete feels like they've tuned it out and it doesn't bother them, that may in fact not be the case. Jess seems a bit emotional. There's nothing wrong with that, but I say that based on how she's reacted in the kiss 'n cry over these past seasons. I so much want her and Brian to believe in themselves and to keep their focus steady and determined. The only way forward I see is for K/F and C/J to push each other to greater heights. It will help further grow the U.S. pairs discipline, and it will add to the excitement that's percolating.

The media narratives are too often over-hyped when there's enough in skating to pull from that no hype-laden stories are necessary.

 

[ice coverage]

... Do only Alexa/Brandon rate working directly with Raf? I think Jenni/Todd need to ensure that Jessica/Brian and Alexa/Brandon are treated as equals at their rink. ...

... At present, I am not worried that Jessica/Brian are being short-changed ....

It's not about C/J being short-changed. C/J's scores were fair based on how they performed. ...

But I was not talking about scores at all. You have misunderstood my usage of "short-changed."
My whole post was referring back to your earlier post that questioned -- for example -- who does or does not have the opportunity to work directly with Raf, and that said that the two pairs need to be treated as equals at their rink.

What I meant is that I am not worried that C/J are getting short-changed in comparison to K/F in terms of treatment at their rink.

---

It is no one's fault, but there are too many overlapping threads related to U.S. pairs, so I am copying below my response to you in the U.S. Nats Pairs SP thread.

... Sadly, C/J's program at 2020 Nationals is no longer to be found, and also not accessible on NBC Sports Gold platform which has been shuttered. ...

If you are referring to Calalang/Johnson's 2020 Nats FS:

USFS did post the last minute of it, FWIW.

https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/threads/2019-20-u-s-pairs-figure-skating.81892/post-2592164

Although not the whole program, the USFS video is better than nothing.

(Not sure, but I seem to have a vague memory that copyright for C/J's 2020 Nats FS music was particularly problematic for some reason -- maybe even for NBC?? Did NBC originally post the full video and then take it down??)