Judging Critiques/Continuation of Plushenko’s Allegations

[Anoosheh]

I think people should find their sippers and sink into a comfy couch with a cup of tea. The selectors are bright enough to recognise the difference between Yevgeny Plushchenko and Alexandra Trusova and sensible enough not to hold one's antics against the other.

Yes Sasha or Aliona won't be held back because of Plushenko's behavior.
The worst thing that could happen is Plushenko getting suspended from coaching.

 

[Giltedge]

Yes Sasha or Aliona won't be held back because of Plushenko's behavior.
The worst thing that could happen is Plushenko getting suspended from coaching.

Agreed. Though, I don't believe it would come to that, because the people who make the decisions know that inter-coach rivalries are 90% play-acting,

rather more this

than this

 

[Mista Ekko]

Well my comment that you quoted wasn't actually in to reference Shcherbakova or Usacheva being dinged on edges, but his skaters seeing the vindictiveness of judges, especially the domestic judges. Though I will say I find it to be in poor taste for an active coach to comment the way he has; as Rodina said - there's a process if you have complaints. In regards to Shcherbakova and Usacheva's edges at Nationals, there are certainly some videos/stills that show them being on the questionable side (!) and I've seen videos that show Trusova's flip edge was worse than how it was called, however I don't know that the angles we've been shown for any of the in question edges has included the angle that judges get to use, where we can say that the judges deliberately ignored the unclear or wrong edge. Perhaps spewing what he's spewed in the media is the way Plushenko feels the Fed will listen to him, however that doesn't mean I (or anyone else) has to agree with the manner in which he is going about it. *I also think that he needs to make sure that what he does spew in the media is accurate, there have been a couple of instances in these threads discussing things he's said where people have pointed out that what he's said is at best an exaggeration or at worst a outright lie.

Can you give an example of when Plushenko "outright lie"d about something?

 

[Amei]

Can you give an example of when Plushenko "outright lie"d about something?

Below is the article where he claims that Mark Lukin "fell on his butt": https://m.sports.ru/figure-skating/...sijskix-turnirax-eto-davlenie-na-moyu-sh.html

The skate in question: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTdBTmKxhLs&t=88s

 

[Amei]

Leave her off for who?

Anna and Sasha certainly can go 1 and 2 or at least make the podium out of Worlds this year. No Sasha and you have only one on the podium unless aliona finds her form.

Plushies antics should not be used against Sasha. She practices hard she skates Hardin competitions and she reaches for the Moon.

Probably should have clarified - I don't think they would leave Trusova off especially this year, but they certainly have the ammunition by her skates if they were ticked off enough at Plushenko.

Find out where the cameras are, and tailor the layout accordingly for those "questionable" jumps. If they can't fix the edge problems in time, clever positioning may turn those "e" into "!" and "!" into no calls. xD

Its about like the transition heavy jumps, the 100% back-loading, the hands over the head with jumps, juniors doing a triple axel in combination in the SP....Part of participating in top level sports is reading the rulebook and figuring out how to maximize it.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Below is the article where he claims that Mark Lukin "fell on his butt": https://m.sports.ru/figure-skating/...sijskix-turnirax-eto-davlenie-na-moyu-sh.html

The skate in question: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTdBTmKxhLs&t=88s

Why are you taking "fell on his butt" literally? The skater very nearly fell (clearly a -5 GOE jump), stepped out of another jump, doubled a jump, and completely popped multiple other jumps. It was an extremely flawed performance and his PCS of high 7's is inaccurate for what he did out there.

Plushenko was absolutely correct about judging bias. I went into detail about it here with the Russian Ladies' SP - https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/t...-sp-at-russian-nats.87482/page-2#post-2685656

There has yet to be anyone able to answer why Shcherbakova deserved far higher PCS than Trusova for a more flawed performance, especially regarding the skating skills and choreography.

 

[sinus]

Why are you taking "fell on his butt" literally?

Because there is no other way to take it. At least in Russian language.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Because there is no other way to take it. At least in Russian language.

People use figures of speech. Or it's possible to simply misremember a near-fall in a heavily flawed program as a fall; what difference does it make? The point remains exactly the same, and it's only a disingenuous semantic to use this as a way to avoid the very real problem he deservedly brought up. Skating culture is so backwards; in nearly any other sport these things are immediately called out by coaches and the athletes themselves ALL the time.

 

[sinus]

People use figures of speech.

In Russian it's not figure of speech in any way.

 

[Alex65]

In Russian it's not figure of speech in any way.

I would not say so categorically. In the context of what Plushenko said, this sounds like a hyperbole for an absolutely dirty element, which nevertheless received no deduction. This is debatable because both sides have examples. Nevertheless, it is foolish to deny the absurdity of Lukin's PCS scores in comparison with Sarnovsky.

 

[FelineFairy]

In Russian it's not figure of speech in any way.

Really? What about hyperbole (exaggeration)? Not that I could accept such a statement in this context. But it is human to get overexcited, and it needs Mishin's reserve and patience to grit one's teeth and keep silent or use a better choice of words.

 

[CrazyKittenLady]

it needs Mishin's reserve and patience to grit one's teeth and keep silent or use a better choice of words.

I recently came across an interview with Mishin about a Cup of China GP in the early 2010s where he said something along the lines of "the judging at the competition was interesting at best, biased at worst". Need to go back and see if I can find the link again.

 

[nussnacker]

Really? What about hyperbole (exaggeration)? Not that I could accept such a statement in this context. But it is human to get overexcited, and it needs Mishin's reserve and patience to grit one's teeth and keep silent or use a better choice of words.

He tends to “exaggerate” on a regular basis, which makes it hard to take him seriously. If you want to complain about judging, you need to specific.
The overall impact he was arguing about regarding Mark’s score is 0.09 points.

 

[FelineFairy]

I recently came across an interview with Mishin about a Cup of China GP in the early 2010s where he said something to the point of "the judging at the competition was interesting at best, biased at worst". Need to go back and see if I can find the link again.

Yes, he says that from time to time, but the choice of words is careful. And he doesn't repeat it and exaggerate. I wish Plushenko learned from him, and not from loud-mouthed PR specialists.
It seems to me that Evgeniy's behaviour is connected unconsciously with the trauma he got in 2010. If openly and loudly "preparing" judges to give lower scores to Plushenko himself worked, why can't it work in the cases he is trying to discuss in public? But he forgets he is not in power position, so it doesn't work.
I am really sorry that he behaves like that, creating negative connotations to go with his name. I think that firstly the FS would benefit from another powerful centre of training, and secondly, there is some truth in what he is saying, but, well, when even truth is put that way and - yes - exaggerated, it impossible to agree with. Just praying it wouldn't affect his skaters, but afraid vindictiveness is part of the scene.

 

[Alex65]

Find out where the cameras are, and tailor the layout accordingly for those "questionable" jumps. If they can't fix the edge problems in time, clever positioning may turn those "e" into "!" and "!" into no calls. xD

This interview with Judge Chemodanov and the subsequent discussion here makes me cry and laugh). Imagine that the hockey referee tells how and where in the arena you can hit your opponent with your elbow so that it goes unnoticed and unpunished. Or the recommendation of a football referee for a football player, in which place of the opponent's penalty area to simulate violation of the rules and how to properly roll on the ground, depicting a terrible pain, so that the referee will appoint a penalty. Truly... is figure skating a sport in general?

 

[flanker]

People use figures of speech. Or it's possible to simply misremember a near-fall in a heavily flawed program as a fall; what difference does it make? The point remains exactly the same, and it's only a disingenuous semantic to use this as a way to avoid the very real problem he deservedly brought up. Skating culture is so backwards; in nearly any other sport these things are immediately called out by coaches and the athletes themselves ALL the time.

No, the point doesn't remain the same in any way. You can't "funnilly" exaggerate when making such complaints if your complaint has to be taken seriously. I see some people do that here just to make something look or sound more harsh just to make things looking better or worse to get them where they want it to be, but in his position Plushenko shouldn't behave like internet forum windbag, but as a professional. Making points about "unfair scoring" won't be helped by obviously false statements (about a 13 y. o. boy, BTW, who is more important than Plushy's ego).

 

[anonymoose_au]

Plushenko shouldn't behave like internet forum windbag

Hey I resemble that remark!

In all seriousness though, you do have a point. Had Plushy pointed out how much rougher Mark's jumps were compared to Kirill's (excepting the 3A) which did effect Mark's presentation would that have caused less ire? Or is there no way he could bring this up without looking like a jerk?

Although once again there's a tendency to attribute the worst of motives to Plushy, could he not have been genuinely annoyed on Kirill's behalf? I was a bit too

 

[flanker]

Hey I resemble that remark!

In all seriousness though, you do have a point. Had Plushy pointed out how much rougher Mark's jumps were compared to Kirill's (excepting the 3A) which did effect Mark's presentation would that have caused less ire? Or is there no way he could bring this up without looking like a jerk?

Although once again there's a tendency to attribute the worst of motives to Plushy, could he not have been genuinely annoyed on Kirill's behalf? I was a bit too

Good to remind the Kirill vs. Mark thing. Today at elements Nikita Sarnovsky did practically the same thing Mark did (on his first 3Lz - in fact even worse) and was called out by Plushenko for that. I wonder whether Plushenko will also now call it "Nikita fell on his butt" and complain about why that wasn't marked as a fall and didn't receive full -5 as on the score board there was -1.87 (it's not in the protocol as the other 3Lz was counted according to the way elemets are counted, so I can't say how particular judges evaluated it).

Anyone is free to pretend Plushenko is fighting for justice, but when I want to watch a fairy tale, I chose some more poetic one.

 

[anonymoose_au]

it's not in the protocol as the other 3Lz was counted according to the way elemets are counted, so I can't say how particular judges evaluated it.

Well since it didn't count I assume he won't, but my understanding with the elements segment is that a skater's best jumps are counted, so it's sort of a moot point? Looking at the score sheets, it looks like no-one gets deductions for falling.

But yes poor Nikita did almost fall on his face there

OK Plushy probably isn't fighting for justice, but I think it's a bit harsh to assume he's doing it purely for his own ego and doesn't care about his skaters

 

[flanker]

Well since it didn't count I assume he won't, but my understanding with the elements segment is that a skater's best jumps are counted, so it's sort of a moot point? Looking at the score sheets, it looks like no-one gets deductions for falling.

But yes poor Nikita did almost fall on his face there

OK Plushy probably isn't fighting for justice, but I think it's a bit harsh to assume he's doing it purely for his own ego and doesn't care about his skaters

That's it, it didn't count (it would only if the other attempt would have been worse) so it didn't affect the result, but even if Mark's 2T would've been marked as a fall it wouldn't affect the result either (2T BV is also so low that even all -5s would make only "cosmetic changes" of the score).

I'm not saying he doesn't care for his skaters as a whole, but he surely shouldn't talk other skaters the way he does. His whole rhetoric and his victimization of his majesty's self sounds truly like "I'm just a poor boy nobody loves me" and his chorus loyally replies "he's just a poor boy from a poor family" which makes all this even more curious.