Judging Critiques/Continuation of Plushenko’s Allegations

[Fried]

I don't know about Danill, but possibly Ravel.

It was primarily about the snake issue. Personally, I would also draw parallels in terms of tension, but that is of course subjective.

 

[sinus]

describe why you think the specific movements used were a good interpretation of those specific notes of music.

LOL. I already described why all her movements are perfectly fit conception of this program, graceful, stylish, polished and musical.
If you think choreo is evaluated as like "note C is interpretated by right hand moving down (and that's good), the next note D is interpretated by left leg moving up (and that's definitely bad for unknown reason)" I feel sorry for you.

Please, pick any 10 second segment that showcases the musicality.

Any segment before and after quad preparations.

 

[Shayuki]

Again you give no real analysis of the skating at all and completely ignore all reasoning and actual examples that have been presented. You say the program has incredible musicality (it doesn't) without being able to give a SINGLE example of how her skating is musical, how it is actually moving to the music and interpreting it. LOL at even throwing in the basic "balletic choreography" phrase. Let me guess, you're also one of the people who thought Zagitova's Don Quixote was the best display of ballet on ice, despite her clearly lacking form in many areas.

It's actually embarrassing to call this Bolero "unprecedented". The only thing unprecedented about it is that she added Quads into her repertoire of chosen random movements that were used to mostly ignore the music and plow right through it as if anything else was playing. This is like calling the mediocre (and that's being generous) Aladdin remake an "unprecedented" movie because it made a lot of money. Just no.

Oh, and I see people are also writing further ridiculous straw-man statements, when I'm far from the only person who has been saying this about the program. Clearly, you would prefer to be stuck in a bubble.

Actually, you're not incorrect on this, for the most part.

I think the beginning of her Bolero has accurate musical interpretation before she begins skating, but afterwards there's very little of it. Some parts you could make a stretch by saying it's musical interpretation, but I don't really feel it. She does make most of her gestures incorrectly, generally too fast and rushes too much to really sense the connection. Even the step sequence which usually should have musical connection doesn't really have any for me. I guess as a musician I'm more sensitive to these things.

Then again, I don't think Kostornaya's shown any musical connection in any of her programs for example, and it's not really a prerequisite for doing well in PCS, but yeah. I'd agree with you on this, outside of the beginning of Bolero.

Oh I'll also agree with you on Zagitova's DQ for the most part, not great interpretation either.

 

[FelineFairy]

LOL. I already described why all her movements are perfectly fit conception of this program, graceful, stylish, polished and musical.
If you think choreo is evaluated as like "note C is interpretated by right hand moving down (and that's good), the next note D is interpretated by left leg moving up (and that's definitely bad for unknown reason)" I feel sorry for you.

Any segment before and after quad preparations.

Why not make it a real music interpretation discussion, taking a short extract with a couple of phrases, preferably the same, from three Boleros, Torvill/Dean, Kostner, Valieva (at least what comes to my mind) and compare interpretation IN DETAIL quoting the rules? That would be the way to prove the opposing opinions and a fantastic lesson for those who want to learn. I know it takes a lot of time, but pointless arguing also does.
Correct evaluation of interpretation is IMHO very different from simply praising or disliking.

 

[Shayuki]

It also depends on how you feel musical interpretation, I think. To me it's a pretty specific way of following the music and I find that just about no one does it in a way that'd be good enough for me. Anastasia Gubanova has, Yuzuru Hanyu has, as well as Anna Shcherbakova. Of course, some could argue for "interpreting the mood of the music" or something without actually following the notes at all, but to me that doesn't really bring an emotional connection which is the reason I enjoy watching figure skating in the first place. Now, I think that Kamila Valieva also has the talent to do so and has done so in programs in the past, but Bolero to me isn't one of those programs.

But, really, seeing the sort of scoring Sofia Titova received in Russian younger age nationals this week, especially with Volkov being one of the judges judging the competition, it's quite ironic for Plushenko to complain about domestic scoring. His skaters just tend to take noticeable steps backwards in terms of PCS - with the sole exception being Trusova, but she just isn't very PCS-talented anyway and has even been getting overscored in PCS in recent times.

 

[FelineFairy]

It also depends on how you feel musical interpretation, I think.

Feelings are individual, one can like or dislike anything. I am with you on the "feelings" about Anna interpreting better than Aliona or Kamila, but those are impressions. I might be mistaken or right, but if I insist on it as a truth, not as a personal impression, it should be proven. There are criteria stated in the rules, some are more exact, others more vague, but at least some can be analysed and graded. Development of musical phrase, rhythm, accents, crescendo or diminuendo and their reflection in movements, acceleration, etc. could be compared.
That is why I asked earlier if judges are trained in analysing music.

 

[Finley]

In the end of the day, all we have is just our perceptions. It is true just as much for me as for you.
One can bring in examples to support any thesis of choice, really. But sometimes we discuss the trees and sometimes - the wood.
I don't use Twitter.
And I was answering to someone and referring specifically to what was going on at this very board and what was posted here - and not the entire universe. And I was very clear about that.
It is true it is off topic anyway. Have a good weekend.

We all have our opinions. Some are more informed than others. Then there are facts. Facts that can be proven by actual physical evidence. Which of course, everyone is free to ignore. There is an entire society of people that still believes the Earth is flat.

I promise you, it is not my 'thesis of choice'. I would very much prefer it if you were 100% correct. Really.

Just because this board has found other fish to fry doesn't mean that the everyone else moved on too. I wish they had.

You have a good weekend as well.

On topic - it would be good to have more consistent judging across the board.

 

[Finley]

And you can send me a message, and I can tell you how Evgenia still is being attacked. Or we could all stop the nonsense and not let what happens outside this board, influence the topics of conversation.

You don't need to send me a message because I've seen how Evgenia is still being attacked. I've never said otherwise.

I didn't bring it up but I'm not going to let a completely false statement about Alina go unchallenged if I happen to see it.

I'm all for stopping the nonsense but it hardly seems likely to happen when there is a constant back and forth/tit for tat. The never ending comparisons, even down to who is getting more online harassment, is just toxic. It would help to stop with the: 'well, what about this?' every time either one of them is mentioned.

On topic: it will interesting to see if Plushenko's allegations bring about change.

 

[Shayuki]

Feelings are individual, one can like or dislike anything. I am with you on the "feelings" about Anna interpreting better than Aliona or Kamila, but those are impressions. I might be mistaken or right, but if I insist on it as a truth, not as a personal impression, it should be proven. There are criteria stated in the rules, some are more exact, others more vague, but at least some can be analysed and graded. Development of musical phrase, rhythm, accents, crescendo or diminuendo and their reflection in movements, acceleration, etc. could be compared.
That is why I asked earlier if judges are trained in analysing music.

Well my opinion is that if you need to rationalize musical interpretation, then it's not really happening. Because musical interpretation you should just feel. If you need to go "well this is on this note and this is done in time with this" then the actual interpretation is weak.

For example. If you watch Michael Jackson perform, do you need to rationalize how his moves are interpreting the music? No, you don't need to. And it's completely obvious to anyone watching. Even if they have absolutely no musical understanding.

 

[Skatesocs]

Well my opinion is that if you need to rationalize musical interpretation, then it's not really happening. Because musical interpretation you should just feel. If you need to go "well this is on this note and this is done in time with this" then the actual interpretation is weak.

Well that's sad to me There have been some absolutely brilliant reviews of skating programs on this forum, as I've forayed into the archives, including one for the LP that shall remain unnamed which claimed it started in medias res.

 

[FelineFairy]

Well my opinion is that if you need to rationalize musical interpretation, then it's not really happening. Because musical interpretation you should just feel. If you need to go "well this is on this note and this is done in time with this" then the actual interpretation is weak.

For example. If you watch Michael Jackson perform, do you need to rationalize how his moves are interpreting the music? No, you don't need to. And it's completely obvious to anyone watching. Even if they have absolutely no musical understanding.

I, as a spectator, don't need analysing. You are right that it's an emotion. But for judging it is impossible to follow emotions. Michael Jackson is an example of a complex effect of music and dance on the audience. But not an example of a competition. In a competition you can't go by someone's feelings. It would be very unfair if a judge said "Ok, Michael leaves me cold" without specifying. But it's quite all right for a simple spectator who is entitled to his likes or dislikes.

 

[Blades of Passion]

LOL. I already described why all her movements are perfectly fit conception of this program, graceful, stylish, polished and musical.
If you think choreo is evaluated as like "note C is interpretated by right hand moving down (and that's good), the next note D is interpretated by left leg moving up (and that's definitely bad for unknown reason)" I feel sorry for you.

Whelp, you don't get it. Music has a beat, musical phrases have character and emotion and movement, and yes individual notes have significance. It's about choosing which ones to emphasize, figuring out what form and moves continuously bring out the soul of the music as best possible, following its contours with your body and face. You should indeed be looking at if a spin position was a good interpretation of that specific part of the music, if a sequence of steps makes sense with the music, how the arms are being used at all times in relation to each musical passage, the alignment and tempo of the body, what the shapes and expression means. It's about the process of personifying the music itself, transforming it from sound, marrying it with human form. Not just pasting pre-selected movements on top of music, with an unrelated pretentious concept.

Hence why this spin is such a good interpretation of the music - because it matches the simmering reflective simplicity, of regret tinged with hope. The body appears prone but elegant, the head is back as if in meditation of life's memories. The body hits full layback position exactly in time with the surprising strum of a guitar entering the melody, the arms first outstretch and pull in closer together to express the violin, and then continually stretch downward behind, expressing the held and continually elongating violin note, matching not only its tempo but also its tonality with a specific form that expresses the true soul of the music, creating a beautifully emotional elegiac moment. Then look at how naturally she comes out of the spin and reaches downwards with her body and arms to express a pulse of music, and then raises upward at an even keel to reflect the more subtle climax, ever so slowly inching her arms higher and higher as the music draws to a close, taking in the entire audience, standing there in serene radiance, as if to express a breadth of memories that require maturity. This. Is. Art. THIS is real interpretation of music.

Compare that sequence of movement to how awful the interpretation would be these days - the skater would do a random illusion turn to start the spin because they are hunting for level credit, then they would go into a sideways position with likely a bent leg and lack of full stretch, then they would grab their blade and half-heartedly hold it somewhere behind their head with probably a bad knee line, and then they would pull the skate over their head for a random biellmann position, and finally they would rush into an ending pose without displaying any buildup or great emotion. Bad.

Let's look at the 3 spins in Valieva's LP and see what they are doing with the music, and her choreography afterwards:

Flying Camel - this one is the least offensive in the spin itself, but it still misses a couple key beats of the music, where she ideally should have released the free arm towards the end of the spin to reflect the ending clause of the music there, and again used the arms better after coming out of the spin. What follows the spin shows a particularly bad attention to music though, it's a marching beat and she just stands there, not giving much to it, doing a couple random movements that fail to reflect the tempo and character, and then particularly her moves after she gets going across the ice show a total disregard for the flute in the melody.

Flying Combo spin - almost completely disconnected from the music, and from a sense of cohesive choreography. Her edge change is too shallow and with vacant arms, so it does nothing to create striking contrast or a memorable picture on the ice, and then she launches into the nearly grotesque illusion turns that have no place in this musical spot. Then comes a generic change of foot on a CLIMAX of the music (why not do a jump over then??), the following sit spin isn't so bad but needs upward arm movement to ideally express the rise of the music (and would have been better timed if he had jumped into it rather than wasting an extra moment switching feet slower). Next we are given a haircutter position with a lazy leg...oh, my favorite....and finally comes a hyper-extended biellmann that is out of place with the music and has failed to hit the more excitement segment where it should have been; the music has moved on but she's still there spinning for no purpose. Following the spin we get relatively random choreography that again does not properly express the marching or triumphant or ebullient quality of the music, and go right into another spin.

Combo spin to close program (no need to link video since it comes right after the previous spin) - we start with a back donut that is quite fine, but immediately after the music shifts into a crescendoing undulating pulse, with horns included, you can feel the energy swaying back and forth, up and down, almost wild but still structured. What does she give us? A rather generic half-sit position with no body movement at all, just set like a stone. Her final position and transition into it, raising up into that full one-handed split with a held forward catch position first, would be a good fit for the music, but she is using her free arm improperly; she needs to be pushing it forward, creating additional width of the body plane to express the complexity, the obtuseness, of the music. The face-stroking kind of movement she instead does is too contained, too demure for this near explosion. After coming out of the spin her final position is too slow and lacking in satisfying buildup, you can't just slowly roll your arms behind your back like that when the music is so rambunctious. If the lame excuse is supposed to be that she's representing snakes, she's not slithery enough either. Simply not evocative enough in any way.

By the way, it's even specifically in rules, about following the structure of the music, and the timing, and the rhythm, and using the details and nuances of the music. I hope you let love and music, and the power of human movement set to it on ice, into your mind and heart and soul, someday.

 

[Mathman]

I think in general we are expecting too much of our ice skaters if we require them to be dancers and musicians, too. They are not. Obviously no skater will ever dance like Michael Jackson (as is proved by the Michael Jackson skating programs that we see every once in a while -- or the Elvis Presleys.)

 

[Magill]

We all have our opinions. Some are more informed than others. Then there are facts. Facts that can be proven by actual physical evidence. Which of course, everyone is free to ignore. There is an entire society of people that still believes the Earth is flat.

I promise you, it is not my 'thesis of choice'. I would very much prefer it if you were 100% correct. Really.

Just because this board has found other fish to fry doesn't mean that the everyone else moved on too. I wish they had.

You have a good weekend as well.

On topic - it would be good to have more consistent judging across the board.

We are not able to perceive any fact without interpreting it. That's the way human brain works, Yours, too, I guess, like it or not. So all we have are perceptions.
We choose those we pay attention to and those we ignore all the time, constantly, that's how human brain works. Yours, too, like it or not, Even when answering my post, you choose how you interpret it, what you make out of it, which part you relate to and how you do it, and which parts you ignore,. You may do it consciuosly or not, but you do it anyway.
I feel free to do the same....

 

[Finley]

We are not able to perceive any fact without interpreting it. That's the way human brain works, Yours, too, I guess, like it or not. So all we have are perceptions.
We choose those we pay attention to and those we ignore all the time, constantly, that's how human brain works. Yours, too, like it or not, Even when answering my post, you choose how you interpret it, what you make out of it, which part you relate to and how you do it, and which parts you ignore,. You may do it consciuosly or not, but you do it anyway.
I feel free to do the same....

No need to guess. My brain is human and it works. Some days better than others. And I do like that my brain works. It's actually my favorite thing about my brain. My least favorite thing about my brain is that it sometimes makes bad decisions. It's quite possible that is what is happening right now. But here we go.

Since you took the trouble to type: "But that was not the reality anymore." I chose to interpret your words as if you actually meant what you said. I do that when I'm reading posts here. Otherwise there really isn't much point in reading them. Since you didn't add any words that could be interpreted as qualifying your statement (such as 'maybe' or 'perhaps') I interpreted it as it was written.

Due to the fact that Alina has been getting non-stop online harassment to varying degrees for the past 3 years right up until right this very minute, for anything and everything you can imagine, I chose to point out that your statement is incorrect. Alina continuing to receive online harassment is the reality right now.

And even though I perceive that you really do not want me to provide proof to back up this statement I offered to do so via private message. My intention was to make it very clear that the ongoing harassment is NOT just my perception of reality. There is actual proof of this harassment, that can be read online, that has created this very unpleasant reality.

If you want to ignore that reality then that is your choice. You don't have to care. Or give it your attention. But if you deny it's existence because you choose not to see it then there is always the possibility someone might choose to challenge your statement and correct your misinformation.

And clearly you can choose to ignore that too.

 

[Dawn825]

Interesting analysis BoP. I thought Kamila's Bolero was very effective on the night, as in the music is inherently very exciting and her skating clean was very exciting. I'd agree that's lots of her moves aren't choreographed to the exact beat of the music, but there are missed moments in Karolina's Bolero too I thought. Personally I think very few programs truly match their music, I'm almost always thinking about how I'd do things differently. Probably not the normal viewing experience. I'm not sure I found Kamila's program to be more egregious than most. Spins are almost impossible to choreograph to the music under the IJS because of the specific position/revolution requirements, I think most skaters have their set spin combinations and just stick them where they fit best, if not just save them for the end to do slowly because they're energy consuming. I would say it's a problem across the board.

 

[sinus]

she is using her free arm improperly; she needs to be pushing it forward, creating additional width of the body plane to express the complexity, the obtuseness, of the music

Who told you what she "need" and what is "proper" here? That (and the whole post) is just ridiculous.

 

[Novalis]

Who told you what she "need" and what is "proper" here? That's (and the whole post) is just ridiculous.

The demands of BoP for a skater are ridiculous under the realism of the current scoring system, but the post itself is quite beautiful actually, like poetry.

 

[FelineFairy]

Whelp, you don't get it. Music has a beat, musical phrases have character and emotion and movement, and yes individual notes have significance. It's about choosing which ones to emphasize, figuring out what form and moves continuously bring out the soul of the music as best possible, following its contours with your body and face. You should indeed be looking at if a spin position was a good interpretation of that specific part of the music, if a sequence of steps makes sense with the music, how the arms are being used at all times in relation to each musical passage, the alignment and tempo of the body, what the shapes and expression means. It's about the process of personifying the music itself, transforming it from sound, marrying it with human form. Not just pasting pre-selected movements on top of music, with an unrelated pretentious concept.

Hence why this spin is such a good interpretation of the music - because it matches the simmering reflective simplicity, of regret tinged with hope. The body appears prone but elegant, the head is back as if in meditation of life's memories. The body hits full layback position exactly in time with the surprising strum of a guitar entering the melody, the arms first outstretch and pull in closer together to express the violin, and then continually stretch downward behind, expressing the held and continually elongating violin note, matching not only its tempo but also its tonality with a specific form that expresses the true soul of the music, creating a beautifully emotional elegiac moment. Then look at how naturally she comes out of the spin and reaches downwards with her body and arms to express a pulse of music, and then raises upward at an even keel to reflect the more subtle climax, ever so slowly inching her arms higher and higher as the music draws to a close, taking in the entire audience, standing there in serene radiance, as if to express a breadth of memories that require maturity. This. Is. Art. THIS is real interpretation of music.

Compare that sequence of movement to how awful the interpretation would be these days - the skater would do a random illusion turn to start the spin because they are hunting for level credit, then they would go into a sideways position with likely a bent leg and lack of full stretch, then they would grab their blade and half-heartedly hold it somewhere behind their head with probably a bad knee line, and then they would pull the skate over their head for a random biellmann position, and finally they would rush into an ending pose without displaying any buildup or great emotion. Bad.

Let's look at the 3 spins in Valieva's LP and see what they are doing with the music, and her choreography afterwards:

Flying Camel - this one is the least offensive in the spin itself, but it still misses a couple key beats of the music, where she ideally should have released the free arm towards the end of the spin to reflect the ending clause of the music there, and again used the arms better after coming out of the spin. What follows the spin shows a particularly bad attention to music though, it's a marching beat and she just stands there, not giving much to it, doing a couple random movements that fail to reflect the tempo and character, and then particularly her moves after she gets going across the ice show a total disregard for the flute in the melody.

Flying Combo spin - almost completely disconnected from the music, and from a sense of cohesive choreography. Her edge change is too shallow and with vacant arms, so it does nothing to create striking contrast or a memorable picture on the ice, and then she launches into the nearly grotesque illusion turns that have no place in this musical spot. Then comes a generic change of foot on a CLIMAX of the music (why not do a jump over then??), the following sit spin isn't so bad but needs upward arm movement to ideally express the rise of the music (and would have been better timed if he had jumped into it rather than wasting an extra moment switching feet slower). Next we are given a haircutter position with a lazy leg...oh, my favorite....and finally comes a hyper-extended biellmann that is out of place with the music and has failed to hit the more excitement segment where it should have been; the music has moved on but she's still there spinning for no purpose. Following the spin we get relatively random choreography that again does not properly express the marching or triumphant or ebullient quality of the music, and go right into another spin.

Combo spin to close program (no need to link video since it comes right after the previous spin) - we start with a back donut that is quite fine, but immediately after the music shifts into a crescendoing undulating pulse, with horns included, you can feel the energy swaying back and forth, up and down, almost wild but still structured. What does she give us? A rather generic half-sit position with no body movement at all, just set like a stone. Her final position and transition into it, raising up into that full one-handed split with a held forward catch position first, would be a good fit for the music, but she is using her free arm improperly; she needs to be pushing it forward, creating additional width of the body plane to express the complexity, the obtuseness, of the music. The face-stroking kind of movement she instead does is too contained, too demure for this near explosion. After coming out of the spin her final position is too slow and lacking in satisfying buildup, you can't just slowly roll your arms behind your back like that when the music is so rambunctious. If the lame excuse is supposed to be that she's representing snakes, she's not slithery enough either. Simply not evocative enough in any way.

By the way, it's even specifically in rules, about following the structure of the music, and the timing, and the rhythm, and using the details and nuances of the music. I hope you let love and music, and the power of human movement set to it on ice, into your mind and heart and soul, someday.

Thank you very much for your analysis! It is what I have been asking for and about, to show how music and movement should be analysed. Other people WITH A SIMILAR ANALYSIS of their own can disagree, or would like to put it milder , but this is really the first in-depth description of interpretation I found on the forum. Thank you again.

 

[FelineFairy]

The demands of BoP for a skater are ridiculous under the realism of the current scoring system, but the post itself is quite beautiful actually, like poetry.

The realism of the current scoring system in PCS is more ridiculous. Although I realise that it is impossible to apply that kind of in-depth analysis at the moment of judging. But if it is impossible, why are these goals set by the rules? Just to disregard them totally?