2020-21 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[Amei]

It shouldn't. Frankly, it feels like judges still do holistic judging with the IJS, when it isn't designed to be used that way. Anna for instance deserves high PCS in interpretation, but her SS is certainly not in the same range as her musicality. Yet, judges don't make that distinction. There just isn't enough differentiation between different elements and different PCS categories or GOE on different elements Why can't a judge give Anna a 9.5 in interpretation and a 7.5 in SS. Give her high GOE on her choreographic sequence, and +0/1 on her 4Lz. ( Yes, there are positives... her rotation position is lovely but also a few minutes including the edge)

Certainly, this doesn't just apply to Anna . It is something we see for most of the favorites. Last year, Alena ( who deserves high GOE on most jumps) wouldn't get penalized for her sometimes flat 3Lz edge and would get really high GOE on her rather ugly I-spin. She also got equally high marks in SS and interpretation. Even though she is the opposite of Anna and deserves 9.5 in SS and 8 in interpretation. I think the judges have a hard time judging in the IJS system. I wish they would be encouraged to use a wider variety of marks for more accurate judging.

I would like to see a change from PCS to a breakout for something like a foundations of skating with transitions and skating skills getting a score and then an artistic score which would be performance, composition and interpretation of music. But would that be too complicated? There are some lovely performers who don't have phenomenal skating skills and vice versa there are skaters with lovely skating skills but don't really interpret their music/perform a program.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Nowhere is written that lutz edge should be deep and clear

Judging skating is not only about what is written in the handbook. People who understand skating know that a Lutz is supposed to clearly press onto the outside edge, and it's also displayed as such in judges' training. It's not the end of the world if someone doesn't do a perfect lutz, but in a sport where every little aspect is supposed to be accounted for, where things are not as black-and-white as "did they reach the finish line first", this is another detail that must be judged.

 

[NAOTMAA]

As a senior the only person to ever beat Shcherbakova was Kostornaia.

And don't forget even if she lost the gold to Kostornaia in those events she still beat her in the free skate in all of them

 

[Bluediamonds09]

Hey, uh, [clears throat loudly] is sassy Radionova still involved in the sport in some way, like coaching? And the kitten-eared Fedichkina, is she just taking a break?

 

[chasingneverland]

At risk of feeding the troll (while in agreement with many others here that her technique needs to improve in a few areas and that judging is somewhat flawed) I think it’s unfair to make such harsh judgements of someone speaking about their feelings in another language. I recall the interview your speaking of. The answers were very basic.
“How do you feel about your performance here” “I am very happy to have been able to land cleanly my jumps” and other answers like that were hardly gloating. Imagine you are a fifteen year old girl and you’ve just won your first international competition as a senior with a record setting performance. Should she not be happy about that? And that ignores all the other nuances of her interviews in Russian, where her thoughts on her performance were far more detailed, and she was not limited by her language. I have my favorites on ice but on character and will, I question none of the top Russian ladies. They outwardly seem bright and good natured. The sport is not the person, and attacks against Anna’s character regardless of how the judges score her or how you like her skating are totally unwarranted.

This!!

Anna is one of my favourite current skaters but I recognize she does have her flaws (like literally everyone else), namely her lutz edge and skating skills. However, like everyone else, she is improving. (Your opinion may differ but I think she's gone from an incorrect edge to a flat edge.) Obviously more work is to be done there and everywhere but she's improving. However, criticism about her tends to be (1) completely out of context of the current discussion and often for the sake of criticizing her and (2) tends to criticize her character and her person. Both of these are completely unwarranted and aren't constructive, in the slightest. Furthermore she's not the only one who is overscored - everyone is - and has nothing to do with the judging. Perhaps some people's anger is misdirected?

 

[chasingneverland]

. (Maybe Boyang Jin or Mikhail Kolyda.)

I don't think it is silly to lament the degradation of the sport.

Completely fair. However, to single out individual skaters who are just performing to the best of their abilities isn't the answer. Especially as all of them have been scored quite generally in various areas - jumps, GOE, SS, PCS, spins, etc - both nationally and internationally.

 

[chasingneverland]

The fact that she only wins over the other girls in domestic competitions says enough. Now, we can move on and not post about it every second day? It gets very tiring.

Considering she beat Sasha at every competition they were both in internationally (not merely domestically) as a senior, I would say that's false.

She also has won the FS at every competition she's skating in as a senior (both nationally and internationally) beating both Sasha and Aliona, as well as others.

So to say that she only wins over the other girls in domestic competitions is frankly untrue. In fact, she's only been beaten internationally as a senior by Aliona and even then both times she won the FS.

 

[NadezhdaNadya]

And don't forget even if she lost the gold to Kostornaia in those events she still beat her in the free skate in all of them

Which is simply atrocious since Shcherbakova has never landed a proper ultra C element in competition or in practice. While Alyona jumped some of the best triple axels ever, not to mention that her triple axel at GP France was probably the biggest ladies axel I have ever seen, probably only Midori Ito jumped bigger triple axels.
And for those of you who critisize Kostornaya - yes, this season she is not doing so well and that is why she scored in the 70s for her SP and in the 140s for FS, she received multiple underrotation deductions, level 2 for step sequences, level 2 for spins and so on. She had received silver and not gold.
At the same time Anna has been scoring in the 70s and the 80s for SP and in the 160s and the 180s for FS with her flawed technique. None of her underrotations and Qs have been called... Should I continue?
As Yuzuru said everyone can learn how to jump 4Lz. Especially If the skater has the "sufficient" enough technique.
Anna is a three time Russian national champion and Sotnikova - a four time Russian national champion. Magnifique!

 

[TripleAxelQueens3]

Interesting! Because Aliona did her lutz with almost a similar edge at Rostelecom a few months ago.
She was making some improvements on her Lutz last year. But looking at her Lutz edge at rostelecom it was close to flat and wasn't "deep" by any means, by your judgement deserved to get a ! But it didn't.
By the way Aliona (like Anna) has close to a flat edge on her flip as well.

I'm not a picky person, but if we want to be strict, the fair statement would be both Anna and Aliona deserve ! On both their flips and lutzes.

But you see the problem is people who have hijacked this thread during the past two days going on and on and on complaining about Anna's edge have conveniently left Aliona's edge problems out of the discussion, and the loudest voices among those people happen to be Aliona fans.

If someone doesn't want to be called a hater when criticizing another skater, he shouldn't keep his favorite skater out of the discussion. I appreciate how @readernick tried to be objective in his/her post.

But this person didn't even mention Alyona? Like, Alyona having a flutz doesn't mean Anna doesn't? And it's not like the original poster said: "I'd give Alyona's lutz a +3 but I'd give Anna a "e" call". Why bring a completely unrelated skater into this argument? We're not (or at least I'm not) arguing that Anna is the only one who flutzes ever in the entirety of the sport. We're just arguing about whether or not she flutzes, and whether or not that should be punished. You'll see no one is mentioning Daria, or Maiia, or Zhenya, so why do we have to mention Alyona?

Re: flip edges. To be honest, I haven't seen super deep flip edges for many skaters. It's not common anyways. Just slightly inside is the norm. (That's very different from saying flutzes are the norm so they shouldn't be punished. Slightly inside is still inside!)

And honestly, I like debates on lutz edges. It's far better than those twitter debates on how Skater xxx is ruining the sport. At least this is an argument not directed towards skaters themselves and the most of us are trying to be respectful. And we're not (well, at least I'm not) complaining about Anna's edge, but rather what deductions ought to be given for that edge (a judging issue). And honestly most of us aren't saying Anna's a bad skater. Because she's obviously not. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, her musicality and performance ability is one of the best in ladies, of any age, right now.

But if I have to drag my favorites through the mud to be a valid debater: Sasha's flip edge is still outside. Daria's most definitely flutzes. Liza Nugumanova also is bordering on flutzing. Alyona needs to stop messing up her twizzles and spins and fix her lutz edge. Kseniia... needs to come back (and also fix her consistency and facial expression). Sofia S. needs to work on her posture, especially going into and out of jumps. Sofia M. needs to work on hitting accents in her free skate and fixing her leg wrap. Liza Berestovskaya needs to work a lot of her SS and jumps (why is she trying quads when her triples have no height?) But I don't see why these criticisms are valid in the context of Anna flutzing?

 

[NadezhdaNadya]

Completely fair. However, to single out individual skaters who are just performing to the best of their abilities isn't the answer. Especially as all of them have been scored quite generally in various areas - jumps, GOE, SS, PCS, spins, etc - both nationally and internationally.

Yuzuru Hanyu, Nathan Chen, Boyang Jin, Mikhail Kolyada, Yuna Kim, Carolina Kostner, Elizaveta Tuktamysheva, Alexia Paganini, Veronika Zhilina.
What do you mean by best of their ability? That Anna deserves gold for her supbar lutzes and flips because this is the best she can do or what...?
Well, see what Mikhail Kolyada can do when he is at his best - he landed the best 4Lz of all time in 2017 at GP China.

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Alyona when she was at her best landed some of the best triple axels ever.
So let's give Anna +4.50 GOE for her excessively pre-rotated "quad" "lutz" with flat edge because this is the best she can do?

 

[Skatefan15]

And we're not (well, at least I'm not) complaining about Anna's edge, but rather what deductions ought to be given for that edge (a judging issue)

I agree! That’s what I’m kind of trying to convey haha. I’m not trying to single out Anna, I just was stating that her lutz is no better than say Daria (who has an e), for example and that it should not get higher GOE than Liza T’s lutz, for example. And that there should be a larger deduction for skaters who don’t take off the right edge and who don’t completely rotate (or at least not multiple +5s and +4s haha).
I also agree with what you put at the end of your post, many of your favorites are also mine and I think it’s important to point out skaters’ flaws, so that they can improve even more!

 

[colormyworld240]

The other problem is what is good height for a triple and what is good height for a quad. There may not be enough quad lutzes in the field to compare, but I don't think all jumps should be compared with each other when they're different jumps. In my opinion Anna's quad lutz wouldn't be qualified to have good height or distance.

We see how a Lutz-Loop still gets access to +4/+5 without anywhere close to as much distance (except for Alina's which is too underrated ) as Lutz-Toe, but it's completely understandable.

Edit: More than distance, I think with Anna it's the height I don't think she gets.

Edit: No, actually I think it's both again.

Anna's 4Lz looks to have the same height. In the past, I think the calculations showed that Anna's 4Lz was actually higher, but I think Sasha's did get bigger since her first season of doing them and look about the same now. If you don't think Anna's 4Lz has good height and distance then the only quads to get that bullet point at nationals would be Kamila's 4T.

Anna's 4Lz and 4F look just as big as many men's quads (of course less than Kolyada's or Boyang's) who get the height and distance bullet point. It depends on what the cutoff is but from the measurements we've seen from the detailed post with Mishin's calculation method that was linked here before, correct me if I'm wrong but Anna's 4Lz was in the high 50s (cm), Sasha's 4Lz in the mid 50s, Sasha's 4T in the low 60s and I haven't seen measurements for Kamila's. That qualifies as good height for me.

 

[Mathman]

Re: flip edges. To be honest, I haven't seen super deep flip edges for many skaters. It's not common anyways. Just slightly inside is the norm.

I am not an expert on anatomy, but I think the reason the inside flip edge is shallower is that the ankle (or ankle-knee) just doesn't bend that way. I am trying it right now sitting at the computer. I can roll way over on an outside edge, but I can't do an inside edge at all hardly.

That's part of the reason why a Lutz jump looks so cool, that deep lean, IMHO. While a flip jump is just sort of "meh," so what. Why not do a pretty loop instead?

 

[colormyworld240]

You think Dudakov or whoever is drilling Scherbakova, Usacheva, and Khromykh on single lutzes with deep outside edges every day to try and fix their flutzes? I don't. And the fact that every notable skater besides Tsurskaya to come out of that camp does the significant prerotation proves the camp recognizes that the jumps are easier when partially rotated on the ice. I am sure the girls work extremely hard on many things, and I think their coaches care a great deal on how jumps are landed and scored.

I don't think any of these jump coaches are drilling single deep outside edge lutzes. Not Dudakov or anyone else.

You can also say every notable female skater besides Liza to come out of Mishin's group (Samodurova, Nugumanova, Fedichkina) does the significant prerotation. Even Liza does it for her 4T and 3F - the only jump she doesn't do it on is the 3Lz. Many of those skaters also have unclear edges. You can probably say this about every jump coach as there are very few female skaters who don't pre-rotate one of their lutz, flip, or toe-loop, let alone all 3.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

Judging skating is not only about what is written in the handbook. People who understand skating know that a Lutz is supposed to clearly press onto the outside edge, and it's also displayed as such in judges' training. It's not the end of the world if someone doesn't do a perfect lutz, but in a sport where every little aspect is supposed to be accounted for, where things are not as black-and-white as "did they reach the finish line first", this is another detail that must be judged.

Judging skating is also not just what you are saying. As figure skating in general. It is not about indoctrinations and preaching your own ideas/philosophy as they are the only valuable ones. Because that don't make you a judge, but a preach. Many people and majority of the judges don't see what you are preaching. Why we should be preached by anyone in first place?

 

[anonymoose_au]

That poster said people shouldn't call this anti-Anna propaganda, I explained why some Anna fans are calling it Anti-Anna propaganda

Oh so it's unfair to harp on Anna's Lutz edge (which she hardly ever gets called on in competition - which is where it counts), but just fine to snark at Sasha for trying to better get artistry? I think her Love Story is beautiful, but some here think nothing of saying it's a total embarrassment and laughing at her.

As far as I can see Anna has done close to diddly-squat to improve her Lutz edge, but "Oooo don't be mean, she's doing her best!"

Sasha was probably doing her best with her artistry too, but did she get a pass? Hell no.

And now she's still getting flack for trying to improve it!

Yeah totally fair.

 

[NadezhdaNadya]

I don't think any of these jump coaches are drilling single deep outside edge lutzes. Not Dudakov or anyone else.

You can also say every notable female skater besides Liza to come out of Mishin's group (Samodurova, Nugumanova, Fedichkina) does the significant prerotation. Even Liza does it for her 4T and 3F - the only jump she doesn't do it on is the 3Lz. Many of those skaters also have unclear edges. You can probably say this about every jump coach as there are very few female skaters who don't pre-rotate one of their lutz, flip, or toe-loop, let alone all 3.

What are you talking about? Tuktamysheva's triple lutz and triple flip are both textbook - with minimal pre-rotation and toe pick assistance. Her triple toe loop is also textbook with the minimal possible pre-rotation for a toe loop jump. Even when she jumps a quad toe loop jump she jumps it with minimal pre-rotation. What you saying about her is simply not true.
She has significant pre-rotation of all of her jumps except for the lutz? No, they are all textbook - toe loop, salchow, loop, flip, lutz, axel. Do not forget that toe loop, salchow, loop all have around 180 degrees pre-rotation and that is textbook for these jumps. Unlike lutz and flip - that can have 45-90 degrees pre-rotation.

 

[anonymoose_au]

Specially if your favorite skater is also getting away with edge calls.

Well I can tell you Sasha gets away with nothing, her flips have got "!" and "E" all season, which is fine, because she has a bad edge.

What's not fine is Anna getting ENORMOUS GOE in some cases +5 from some judges for her wrong edge Lutz. If she gets a +5 for it then what should Sasha with the correct edge get? +6? But she doesn't, Sasha's slightly awkward landings are apparently much worse then not even doing the right jump in the first place.

Plus there's the fact that if Anna was called it would have no effect whatsoever on placements, she'd still win by miles. That makes this whole pushback even worse, why are you so resistant to Anna getting "!" when she deserves it? I could almost understand if doing so would cost her gold, but it won't. It doesn't hurt her results one little bit, you know what it does do though? Send a message that technique counts. If I were Sasha if be so discouraged, why bother doing a deep outside edge Lutz (especially since that's probably what gives her so much trouble with the flip in the first place) with a flat edge will get you as much if not more points? It's probably less difficult to do too.

Anna already has the artistry, spins and consistency, you could at least give Sasha respect for her Lutz technique.

 

[TripleAxelQueens3]

I don't think any of these jump coaches are drilling single deep outside edge lutzes. Not Dudakov or anyone else.

You can also say every notable female skater besides Liza to come out of Mishin's group (Samodurova, Nugumanova, Fedichkina) does the significant prerotation. Even Liza does it for her 4T and 3F - the only jump she doesn't do it on is the 3Lz. Many of those skaters also have unclear edges. You can probably say this about every jump coach as there are very few female skaters who don't pre-rotate one of their lutz, flip, or toe-loop, let alone all 3.

Liza Nugumanova has really good jump technique in respect to prerotation actually! She uses only her toepick. I think that and the fact that she has delayed rotation are some of the reasons why she struggles with URs. Also, Guliakova has pretty good takeoff technique, but also struggles with URs.

The only coach who has consistently trained skaters with good takeoff technique is Panova I think (Sotskova, Tarakanova, Sinitsyna, Kanysheva, Frolova, Tsibinova)

 

[Mathman]

Well, see what Mikhail Kolyada can do when he is at his best - he landed the best 4Lz of all time in 2017 at GP China

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The curious thing is that the best 4 Lutz of all time recieved 0 GOE from two judges and only +1 from two more (along with 3 twos and 2 threes). 0 was actually correct because there were no preceeding steps, a requirement for the solo jump back then.