Judging Critiques/Continuation of Plushenko’s Allegations | Page 19 | Golden Skate

Judging Critiques/Continuation of Plushenko’s Allegations

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I'd agree it isn't too fair to compare 6.0 skating to IJS skating. There are so many more technical requirements that artistry is undeniably less rewarded and musical interpretation is less achievable. Even if the music calls for a simple elegant layback and a skater can do a beautiful one, no one is going throw away the points of a level 4 spin that requires 4 different positions held for 3 revolutions each (or wvtr it is). I'm not saying there isn't plenty of room for better interpretation and choreography than we're seeing most of the time. But comparing Kamila's spin to Ashley's in 2014 makes more sense than to Michelle's in 2003, whose spin was beautiful and sensitive to the music - but from a different sport.
it's comparing apples to oranges. when Kwan was dominating in the late 90s and early 00s, she was creme of the crop. the sport has DRASTICALLY changed since then and like you said, it is a different sport now. but in that version, there was no one better. if we were to compare Kwan to top skaters 20 years before her like we are the Russian ladies here, it would again look different in many ways.
 
I rewatched the whole program. I would not be as harsh as some comments above. Kwan's skating has some qualities in it. I was not bored as I am while watching many of classical intepretations by the Japanese skaters. But, of course, tech wise it is history. One may feel nostalgic watching Lyudmila Turischeva's or Nadya Komanechi's performances. But to compare them with Ms. Biles? Come on. Gymnastics back then and now are 2 different sports. Figure skating during Miss Kwan's time and now are 2 different sports.

The gymnastics comparison isn't quite relevant because Gymnastics has no artistic score (although many people wish there would still be more focus there). It's all technical score now, with just a couple artistic deductions that can be taken if a judge feels a routine was especially poor in terms of choreography (or musicality, for a floor routine). Your example here is also flawed because there are MANY technical things Simone Biles is incapable of, not to mention artistic, that competitors in the 70's and 80's were able to do. She has a certain set of strengths just like anyone, and has pushed that particular skillset to a higher level than anyone else.

Figure skating still has a crucially judged artistic score. PCS are something that can deserve an extremely high score regardless of technical elements. It's especially important to remember that Performance, Choreography, and Interpretation are different components than Transitions. Even in that component, the value of steady and deep held edges is relevant, it's not simply about busy work. Just because the judges do not score the components correctly, and have shown a disregard for properly evaluating body form and choreography and musicality and expression, does not mean those qualities are supposed to be considered outdated. The person who created the PCS concept for the scoring system has even said they are being used incorrectly and not getting judged properly.
 
How do you express subtle pain and joy, introspective loss and triumph, gentle rhythms, mature world view, in a skating program? Not in any way that you keep talking about.

I admit to not having kept up with the discussion much. Still, I do agree with those who say that skating from 2003 isn‘t exactly comparable to skating nowadays because the technical requirements and rules have changed vastly. So, it might help if you could offer a more modern example, say, from the last quad or so? Something that fulfilled your expectations in terms of interpretation, choreography etc. but also followed today‘s rules. Might present a more accurate chance for comparison. :unsure:
 
What about Shoma?

 
What about Shoma?

You mean about his flip?

I always feel bad for Shoma after seeing this Italian show that was just literally 20 minutes of picking apart every aspect of his jumping. And this was a professional sports show done by professional commentators (I think one was even a former skater) as opposed to Koola-King's weird YouTube videos. How embarrassing for Shoma.

I wonder if he'd improved on it since 🤔
 
So, it might help if you could offer a more modern example, say, from the last quad or so?
I'm sure he'll get in here, but I fully expect him to cite:

2014-18:
1. Gracie Gold Daphnis et Chloe
2. Mao Asada Madame Butterfly and Ritual Firedance
3. Karen Chen On Golden Pond

2010-2014:
1. Mao Asada Liebestraume (early draft) and Chopin Nocturne
2. Yuna Kim Homage to Korea and Les Miserables
3. Carolina Kostner Bolero (2012-13 edition) and Afternoon of a Faun
4. Yulia Lipnitskaya Schindler's List

Hanyu's footwork in the Chopin program is maybe the closest?
Really? Nah.
 
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it might help if you could offer a more modern example, say, from the last quad or so? Something that fulfilled your expectations in terms of interpretation, choreography etc. but also followed today‘s rules.

As discussed, no current programs are close to perfection of choreography and interpretation, hardly any even deserve to be considered in that realm. That's the skater's (coach's) choice for choosing to do more convoluted footwork and spins, and random transitions, that break form or character or musical timing or cohesive chorographic feeling. They choose to gain more technical points at the cost of losing artistic integrity. Since the judges do not score these details accurately, and simply accept what is in front of them (RE: the metaphor of frogs in gradually boiling water), we've now lost the importance of things that should be valued in skating. Constantly twisting and hopping around is not inherently better than expressive posture, held edges, sophisticated placement of the limbs, full attention to the music, and awareness of the audience.

Under the Code of Points, two examples of amazing artistry are Yu-Na Kim at 2007 Worlds and Sasha Cohen at 2006 Olympics. Interestingly, they both had two major mistakes in the LP, and yet the programs still stand out as being sublimely emotional and musical. They also had to do 4 spins in those programs, although the footwork sequence rules were much different back then (much BETTER), which allowed less time to be spent on that most laborious and dreadful part of current skating.

More recently, Giada Russo's LP at 2016 Europeans stands out as having the the best attempted artistry from any lady. Look at the attention to those strident string notes and the calmness when the music has changed to more of a lullaby; the total importance given to creating shapes and rhythms with her body that bring out the soul of the music as it occurs, and her own emotions in the moment. She doesn't execute it perfectly, and the ending can better, but what she's aiming for there is at a higher level.

Adam Rippon's "Bird" program and Jason Brown's "The Piano" also stand out as being artistically sublime lately (although still I would prefer to see some alterations to the footwork and a spin or two), and even there, they had a benefit of 30 more seconds in those programs, which has been sadly stripped from the Men's Long Programs. Without those 30 seconds, in exchange for just 1 less jump in the programs, the Men now have less room to skate freely. The effects are clear - no Men's program in the past 3 seasons has been able to reach the heights we saw from 2015-2018. If you compare Fernandez's Olympic program to the version he used at Euros 2019, or Hanyu's "Seimei" that had to chop off 30 seconds for 2020 4CC, they are inferior. Speaking of those two guys, Fernandez at 2013 Europeans and 2016 Worlds are big highlights, and Hanyu with his 2012 Romeo+Juliet and 2017 Worlds LP. Still some spin positions and little things to point at in those programs, but overall great, very musical and expressive.

2014-18:
1. Gracie Gold Daphnis et Chloe

Haha! I do think it's a very underrated planned program (the earliest version) and could have been superb. Dunno if Gracie would ever pull off all the nuances, but it was not the right time anyway. :(
 
Under the Code of Points, two examples of amazing artistry are Yu-Na Kim at 2007 Worlds and Sasha Cohen at 2006 Olympics.
I was going to say this... but they asked for recent ones, so all the new footwork rules. This is kind of cheating in comparison ;) Kim's Lark Ascending is transcendent, and I can really only name one interpretation better than it (Lulu's Butterfly Lovers).

More recently, Giada Russo's LP at 2016 Europeans stands out as having the the best attempted artistry from any lady.

And this is the footwork I'd have cited instead of Hanyu's Chopin :biggrin:

For 2007-10 I'd say:

1. Yuna Kim Lark Ascending and Tango de Roxanne
2. Mao Asada 2006-07 programs + Clair de Lune (and Fantaisie Impromptu to an extent)
These standout the most.
 
And this is the footwork I'd have cited instead of Hanyu's Chopin :biggrin:

Yes you're right, I didn't remember her whole footwork sequence right away though. Although, I think Hanyu's is still maybe the best example of a recent footwork sequence trying to go as fast across the ice as possible, which the music very much called for. Takahashi's 2013 Worlds SP footwork is really great for that too, but yeah, still different rules.
 
Yes you're right, I didn't remember her whole footwork sequence right away though. Although, I think Hanyu's is still maybe the best example of a recent footwork sequence trying to go as fast across the ice as possible, which the music very much called for. Takahashi's 2013 Worlds SP footwork is really great for that too, but yeah, still different rules.
It's actually somewhat strange, since I agree Hanyu's is very fast, especially the 2014-15 draft with the simpler rules, but that's still technique. The women in 2016 still did it better artistically, even with more complicated rules for footwork that season. Russo of course, but even Asada's Butterfly, at the end, it's true that some of the turns don't fit necessarily in terms of interpretation (should have stopped after her LBI loop), but she makes sure to slow down and vary her speed to fit the cadence of music - so much so that it looks like those are simple transitions she did into her combo spin at the end. I would also cite that illusion entry into her layback as something desirable, even if not technically great. That entire layback creates the image of a flower blossoming on the ice, and Asada leaping out of it as she goes into her footwork sequence. (and a very beautiful, clean two foot spin to end the layback).
 
More recently, Giada Russo's LP at 2016 Europeans stands out as having the the best attempted artistry from any lady.
..

Adam Rippon's "Bird" program ... also stand out as being artistically sublime lately ...
Regarding Russo, yes, it's a unique program. It's a quick program as is the one of Rippon which you are citing. What I'm missing a bit in Rippon's program is the overall artistic quality, the "transcending" quality. Just to move one's body birdlike isn't enough for art.
And I think - to repeat - Shoma Uno is the one which is able to do this - artistic immersion and radiation. His current long program is on a pop song, still good. His new gala program is on classical music (baroque) and I don't know another current skater who can do this - interpretation of music and expressivity, true art like in ballet, in fact, beyond ballet since using the possibilities of movements and moving which exist in figure skating, only.
 
I like much of Shoma's skating too, but wouldn't say he's been able to show the same amount of raw emotion or exquisiteness. I don't at all think Rippon's program was just about moving his body birdlike. It was an expression of being wounded and vulnerable, and looking for solace, finding respite. The unique arm/body movements throughout are so purposeful, so unrushed and considerate, constantly finding ways to personify the music and create a beautiful picture. His footwork sequence there is one of the few that don't annoy me, he doesn't try to force anything and the turns don't seem to be there for no reason, they are being used to actually hit new positions that reflect the music, for the body to gently dip downward and back up, taking pauses to show patience and new forms.
 
I like much of Shoma's skating too, but wouldn't say he's been able to show the same amount of raw emotion or exquisiteness. I don't at all think Rippon's program was just about moving his body birdlike. It was an expression of being wounded and vulnerable, and looking for solace, finding respite. The unique arm/body movements throughout are so purposeful, so unrushed and considerate, constantly finding ways to personify the music and create a beautiful picture. His footwork sequence there is one of the few that don't annoy me, he doesn't try to force anything and the turns don't seem to be there for no reason, they are being used to actually hit new positions that reflect the music, for the body to gently dip downward and back up, taking pauses to show patience and new forms.
I may not always agree with you on issues(you know far too much about what you are passionate about (pun intended) than I could ever put into words in a post, so I usually don't even try), but I did love Adam's Birds programme because it felt sublime. Always moved me - not always to tears but often - and still does whenever I watch it.
 
I wouldn't go so far as to call Rippon's Birds program sublime, but I do agree it had a lot of care to it. I really liked how he always made sure to release his spin positions with a softness to his arms, or even made sure the arms on his landing positions were always soft and completed a fluid motion. My favorite part though is how the step sequence is recalled in the end through the choreography sequence. The first a lot slower and showcasing vulnerability, and the second fast across the ice and a lot shorter, showcasing triumph against your issues.
Rippon's Birds, Jason Brown's "The Piano", Fernandez at 2016 Worlds are big highlights, and Hanyu with his 2017 Worlds LP. Still some spin positions and little things to point at in those programs, but overall great, very musical and expressive.
Surprisingly like Chan's Journey more than all those. I agree that Fernandez and Hanyu performed theirs better than Chan ever did, though, and probably Rippon and Brown did so too.
 
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You mean about his flip?

I always feel bad for Shoma after seeing this Italian show that was just literally 20 minutes of picking apart every aspect of his jumping. And this was a professional sports show done by professional commentators (I think one was even a former skater) as opposed to Koola-King's weird YouTube videos. How embarrassing for Shoma.

I wonder if he'd improved on it since 🤔

I haven't watched it but by your description seems Ambesi & Co: to be fair they have always done it for all the skaters, not just Shoma.

Yes it is harsh but also the reality, i think it's good to educate your audience, cause the judging is so inconsistent and if the audience bases their knowledge on scores only, it's like almost impossible to understand this sport nowadays.

I like them cause at least they are unbiased, they judge all skaters the same way even the italians as i think they all should.

To my knowledge japanese commentators tend to be like that too and aren't shy to call out a wrong edge on a jump even for a japanese skater.
 
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I haven't watched it but by your description seems Ambesi & Co: to be fair they have always done it for all the skaters, not just Shoma.

Yes it is harsh but also the reality, i think it's good to educate your audience, cause the judging is so inconsistent and if the audience bases their knowledge on scores only, it's like almost impossible to understand this sport nowadays.

I like them cause at least they are unbiased, they judge all skaters the same way even the italians as i think they all should.

To my knowledge japanese commentators tend to be like that too and aren't shy to call out a wrong edge on a jump even for a japanese skater.
They Italian commentators should definitely discuss Shcherbakova.
 
I haven't watched it but by your description seems Ambesi & Co: to be fair they have always done it for all the skaters, not just Shoma.
Maybe but they could have used the term "incorrect take-off" rather than cheated, they made it sound like Shoma knew how to do it properly and was doing it wrong for funsies. It just really rubbed me the wrong way, they didn't have one nice thing to say about him. They seemed to get a lot of pleasure out of it too, like they weren't doing it for the benefit of the sport but because they really enjoyed trashing skaters.

They also didn't offer any advice...unless "Be Yuzuru Hanyu" counts as advice.

PS You're right in saying they're equal opportunity, Dima Aliev also had no business going anywhere near an ice rink either in their estimation. Basically it was "Are you Yuzu? No, then GTFO."
 
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Maybe but they could have used the term "incorrect take-off" rather than cheated, they made it sound like Shoma knew how to do it properly and was doing it wrong for funsies.
'Cheated' is the terminology used in the ISU documents to address incorrect take-off technique, so although it may sound like a condemnation of his personality and/or morality (and a lot of fans react like it's just that when the term is applied to their favourite skaters), they were just using the established technical vocabulary to discuss a technical issue succinctly.
 
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