Judging Critiques/Continuation of Plushenko’s Allegations

[anonymoose_au]

they were just using the established technical vocabulary to discuss a technical issue succinctly

Except they didn't discuss it succinctly they spent about 20 minutes going on about it and showing 500 angles just in case we somehow missed what dreadful technique Shoma and Dima (and I think Sasha Samarin got a serve as well) have. They made Koola King look positively restrained - plus at least Koola King does their videos on their own time.

I'm a fan of Yuzu and love his skating, but let's not pretend he doesn't throw in spread eagle exits on some of his jumps to cover up step-outs. Which is quick thinking but probably just as "cheaty" as what Shoma, Dima and Sasha Samarin do.

Where's Max A's 20 minute presentation about that?

 

[FelineFairy]

'Cheated' is the terminology used in the ISU documents to address incorrect take-off technique, so although it may sound like a condemnation of his personality and/or morality (and a lot of fans react like it's just that when the term is applied to their favourite skaters), they were just using the established technical vocabulary to discuss a technical issue succinctly.

Unfortunately a derivative of the term is applied by some fans calling an athlete a cheater. This derivative is personality-related and not a technical term. It is a direct insult.

 

[Skatesocs]

"Cheated" is not just used because of the documents. It's just basic English terminology. You can listen to old videos of Dick Button and Peggy Fleming calling jumps "cheated".

"Cheated" is even used in dance, lol. "Cheated pirouettes" is commonly used when someone just can't do the turns properly - especially multi-turn pirouettes (sound familiar?).

One thing I'll say that we tend to use "cheated" exclusively on jumps for discussions, and maybe we should not. We see "cheated" turns/steps in footwork, and "cheated" spins too (at least that's what I'd call the ones that look like they're just torqued to produce the rotation for the level credit, instead of using their feet and core to get the rotation... or those camel spins where they start dropping their legs just to maintain their speed/do a COE... or clearly change their body position when switching to the other edge in order to get the feature while maintaining a semblance of speed... or multiple other things). I guess, though, usually those come with lowered GOE and lost levels, whereas the jump stuff usually doesn't lead to a deserved < or lowered GOE.

 

[readernick]

Except they didn't discuss it succinctly they spent about 20 minutes going on about it and showing 500 angles just in case we somehow missed what dreadful technique Shoma and Dima (and I think Sasha Samarin got a serve as well) have. They made Koola King look positively restrained - plus at least Koola King does their videos on their own time.

I'm a fan of Yuzu and love his skating, but let's not pretend he doesn't throw in spread eagle exits on some of his jumps to cover up step-outs. Which is quick thinking but probably just as "cheaty" as what Shoma, Dima and Sasha Samarin do.

Where's Max A's 20 minute presentation about that?

Yes, the Italian commentators are far from being unbiased. None of us are truly unbiased. That being said, I don't think that Shoma would have been particularly hurt by this piece because if you have seen his youtube videos it is obvious that he is a self-aware, and remarkably candid (especially given traditional Japanese levels of politeness/ vagueness) individual. I am sure that he is 100% aware that his 4F technique isn't good. He has been working on it. His 4F at JN this year was the best one I have ever seen him do although still far from ideal technique.

Pre-rotation is something that does affect the quality of jumps. Shoma (while my favorite male skater currently participating) does not deserve high GOE on his 4F. I am sure he is aware of this. I would think the other skaters who have similar picking and rotation issues (many male skaters and all the ladies who are doing 4Lz/4F in competition) are also aware that the jumps they are doing are less than ideal which is why it isn't necessary for their fans to be overly concerned about the criticism they receive online. They know their weaknesses.

 

[FayD]

I'm a fan of Yuzu and love his skating, but let's not pretend he doesn't throw in spread eagle exits on some of his jumps to cover up step-outs. Which is quick thinking but probably just as "cheaty" as what Shoma, Dima and Sasha Samarin do.

Sorry but no, saving a rotated, performed with a good technique jump isn't cheating or in any way comparable to poor techniques like prerotation or wrong edges. You can argue he should get lower GOE on those saves, but it's simply not cheating. For one, he does this very rarely and the majority of his jumps when clean have excellent flow and running edge. Whereas the skaters criticized for cheating their jumps pretty much never (or almost never) perform them with proper technique, hence it's an actual chronic problem.

And just for the record, I don't like Ambessi and I'm in a mutual block with him on twitter, so not defending or praising his commentary here.

 

[Matthew]

Isn't that creepy, guys? One page before, we were on a discussion about figure skating as an expressive art, and, now, you're picking on technical issues. Oh my god. You don't seem to be able to look at present figures skaters in terms of expression. Just nuzzling in the past.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I haven't watched it but by your description seems Ambesi & Co: to be fair they have always done it for all the skaters, not just Shoma.

Yes it is harsh but also the reality, i think it's good to educate your audience, cause the judging is so inconsistent and if the audience bases their knowledge on scores only, it's like almost impossible to understand this sport nowadays.

I like them cause at least they are unbiased, they judge all skaters the same way even the italians as i think they all should.

To my knowledge japanese commentators tend to be like that too and aren't shy to call out a wrong edge on a jump even for a japanese skater.

Sorry... what?

Max Ambiasi? Being unbiased towards a direct competitor of Hanyu?

That’s a good one - tell us another!

 

[anonymoose_au]

One page before, we were on a discussion about figure skating as an expressive art, and, now, you're picking on technical issues.

Whoops sorry that was me, someone brought up a comment I made earlier when we were discussing tech issues...

Having said that it's hard to pick apart figure skating as an art because art is so personal. Although...judges on the whole seem to all be very conservative. Which is weird because for all the talk of old white guys I've seen lots of young looking women introduced as judges... Or is the way PCS is written encourage classical, lyrical programs to be seen as better than ones that aren't?

Max Ambiasi? Being unbiased towards a direct competitor of Hanyu?

Oh good, I wasn't just imaging it!

I could almost understand picking on Shoma who did get silver at the Olympics (as I recall the show was a direct response to those), but poor Dima was nowhere near the podium so I'm not sure why they went after him. Talk about kicking a man when he's down.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Whoops sorry that was me, someone brought up a comment I made earlier when we were discussing tech issues...

Having said that it's hard to pick apart figure skating as an art because art is so personal. Although...judges on the whole seem to all be very conservative. Which is weird because for all the talk of old white guys I've seen lots of young looking women introduced as judges... Or is the way PCS is written encourage classical, lyrical programs to be seen as better than ones that aren't?

Oh good, I wasn't just imaging it!

I could almost understand picking on Shoma who did get silver at the Olympics (as I recall the show was a direct response to those), but poor Dima was nowhere near the podium so I'm not sure why they went after him. Talk about kicking a man when he's down.

Let’s be honest here: certain people just pick on Shoma for getting silver because Javier happened to be team Orser, and Shoma spoiled their dream 1-2 finish.

Had Fernández happened to have had any other coach, certain people wouldn’t have bothered to whisper a word of outrage.

 

[Blades of Passion]

I haven't noticed anyone picking on Shoma for that reason. All "picking on him" has existed since 2016 when his very cheated 4Flip was ratified (he went on to do it better, although some GOE's he got for such huge pre-rotation remained annoying) and then at 2018 Olympics when he fell on a 4Lo< but received full credit for it.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I haven't noticed anyone picking on Shoma for that reason. All "picking on him" has existed since 2016 when his very cheated 4Flip was ratified (he went on to do it better, although some GOE's he got for such huge pre-rotation remained annoying) and then at 2018 Olympics when he fell on a 4Lo< but received full credit for it.

Agreed that the 4L was sus, but if we're going to talk about non-calls, Javier wasn't exactly deducted/dinged on GOE for the rather obvious lip in his 3F+eu+3S series either. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcjxJabDLHs#t=3m20s

 

[Blades of Passion]

That's not an "obvious lip" at all. An obvious lip is what Miki Ando was doing prior to 2008.

Fernandez is maybe transferring over to a very slight outside edge for like 1/10th of a second before that foot leaves the ice. That should be considered completely fine for a Flip anyway. The jump is supposed to take off from a rather flat edge. It's not the same thing as a Lutz in reverse and the edge calls should not operate in the same way for those jumps.

 

[Dawn825]

...looks like a lip to me.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

That's not an "obvious lip" at all. An obvious lip is what Miki Ando was doing prior to 2008.

Fernandez is maybe transferring over to a very slight outside edge for like 1/10th of a second before that foot leaves the ice. That should be considered completely fine for a Flip anyway. The jump is supposed to take off from a rather flat edge. It's not the same thing as a Lutz in reverse and the edge calls should not operate in the same way for those jumps.

Yeah, and Shoma is on the quarter rotation of his 4L for like 1/10th of a second before his blade turns within that amount.

If it's a very slight outside edge before that foot leaves the ice then by definition of a flip jump, it is a wrong edge takeoff. It is clear his left foot is leaning left onto an outside edge before the foot leaves the ice.

If you're going to be critical of skaters, please try to be consistent across the board, instead of more lenient towards one more than another, simply because it upholds your own argument.

Javier and Shoma are two of my fave skaters but at least I can call a spade a spade. It's the Olympics; the tech panel was evidently lenient to both.

 

[Dawn825]

There's also a big difference between a flat edge and an outside edge for a flip. An outside edge makes it a lutz. The reason why a flip edge needs to be very shallow on the inside edge is because, as you see with Shoma, a deep edge comes with significant prerotation. If a skater takes off from a completely flat edge to avoid any prerotation, it should be called but I forgive it. Skaters who take off from a completely flat edge and still use the full blade assist to pre-rotate 180 degrees like certain Russian ladies...that I don't forgive. I can't tell what edge Javier is on from that video, but the full blade assist prerotation is a problem either way.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

That's not an "obvious lip" at all. An obvious lip is what Miki Ando was doing prior to 2008.

Fernandez is maybe transferring over to a very slight outside edge for like 1/10th of a second before that foot leaves the ice. That should be considered completely fine for a Flip anyway. The jump is supposed to take off from a rather flat edge. It's not the same thing as a Lutz in reverse and the edge calls should not operate in the same way for those jumps.

Flip is defined as inside the same way lutz is define as outside. The only correct thing is that both can be jumped from close to a flat edge, but it is not that flip can be rather flat and lutz should be clear outside, just because Yu Na for example jumped like that. Very wrong and very subjective narrative.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Yeah, and Shoma is on the quarter rotation of his 4L for like 1/10th of a second before his blade turns within that amount.

If it's a very slight outside edge before that foot leaves the ice then by definition of a flip jump, it is a wrong edge takeoff.

That is not the definition of a Flip jump. Throughout the entire history of skating, the Flip was executed from flat-ish edge, leaning either slightly inside or outside at the moment of takeoff. You can go all the way back to the 1940's and see it in videos - some people had a slightly outside lean on the takeoff, and it was completely acceptable. Nobody is even credited with inventing the jump. The real definition of a Flip jump is doing an entry with the same rotational direction as the jump, and then toe-picking into the ice. The inside edge isn't what really defines the jump. It simply shouldn't go too deep onto the outside.

Whereas a Lutz, it's supposed to start on a deep outside and is defined by the counter-rotation, so when you roll all the way up to a flat or slight inside on that jump, it's a far greater degree of difference on the edge (45+ degrees), and thus an actual error, as compared to going from a slight inside to a slight outside on the Flip (which can be as small as a 2 degree difference, if we are being precise).

Shoma underrotating his jump and falling on it is of actual importance, as it shows multiple significant technical errors and a complete failure to do the jump. The chronic underrotations and wonky techniques that have been continually adopted in modern skating are not something that should just be accepted.

Even if you want to incorrectly give Javier a ! for his Flip, he still wins the Silver when Shoma is given the deserved < call.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

How the jump is executed in history doesnt mean it has to be executed the same way today. Nomatter how it looked in history, todays definition is pretty clear.

 

[Blades of Passion]

How the jump is executed in history doesnt mean it has to be executed the same way today. Nomatter how it looked in history, todays definition is pretty clear.

"Today's definition" is more than the current superficial definition in a handbook. What is valued and how things should be scored in skating is a constant conversation. How jumps were executed in history does indeed have relevance to what we should value in modern times. We must always be looking for the real truth of the matter and the best assessment.

 

[Skatesocs]

I don't see how today's definition of a Flip is pretty clear... if we combine them with the GOE bullets. These are two separate things unfortunately:

1. Flip takes off an inside edge - in order to emphasise the edge, skaters might try to go deep into the inside edge.

2. Very good height and distance/Good body position from take off to landing - the mechanics of the Flip are such that when you keep the edge as shallow as possible, you maximize the force you get out of the toe tap, and transfer momentum into the air most efficiently (bigger Flip jump). Moreover, the shallow edge keeps you on as straight an entry as possible, which allows a much more controlled axis in the air, whereas the deep inside edge entry is usually more curved, leading to a loss of control in the air in comparison.

IF the point is to get GOE bullets, then the Flip should indeed be taught off a shallow edge... but seemingly the Flip jumps that tend to go off shallow insides get called (!) wrongly sometimes, which leads to lower GOE even with better aesthetics. The judges instead go with jumps with deeper inside edges, since they don't get any calls, even if they have worse aesthetics. This indeed turns into a problem - we have now defined the Flip jump based only off a deep inside edge, even though the better Flip jumps are off shallow inside edges!

It's not difficult for me to see personally that pre-CoP the definition of a Flip allowed flat/shallow outside edges. Since the difference between shallow outside/flat/shallow inside is very little, and again the momentum/quality produced is greater.

ETA: And yes... Obvious Lip is Ando's: https://youtu.be/ibtOU8mAHCo?t=103 Fernandez changes to an outside as he's already vaulting. Ando's edge deepens along the entry curve, before she even taps.