Could one of the Russian ladies become the best ladies skater EVER next season?

[Delienne]

I was there too and I couldn’t agree more with you

I came there thinking the ladies event would be the best, and at the end I thought it was the least enjoyable, and was way more interteined by men and ice dance! SS, flow and knee bend totally make a program when you are in the audience. I cant talk about Kamila though cause I didn't see the junior ladies

 

[Mathman]

Well, wins and longevity depend of those quads and 3A now

It's that "now" that makes the question of "best ever" moot. Yes, Anna Shcherbakova is the "best ever now" skater because she can do two quad Lutzes and therefore she wins a lot of competitions and may turn out to have a long career.

The best ever ever, that's a different querstion.

 

[Giu]

I came there thinking the ladies event would be the best, and at the end I thought it was the least enjoyable, and was way more interteined by men and ice dance! SS, flow and knee bend totally make a program when you are in the audience. I cant talk about Kamila though cause I didn't see the junior ladies

Exactly, strong SS, soft knee bend and flow are not characteristic of the Russian ladies at the moment. On the contrary if we look at the Japanese field, even the girls among the lower ranks have better knee bend and step sequences than the Russians. With this I’m not saying that they are the best but simply that there are so many different components requiring different skills that have to be taken into account.

 

[Skatesocs]

Well, you did talk about sports competitions in general.

I didn't.

 

[Mathman]

Not really, a skater can be the best ever for even 1 competition, they still were the best ever. I don't think logevity has much to do with it. Yeah, "greatest of all time" perhaps, but "best" is IMO different. Like 100m hurdles, you can have an athlete run amazing times for 15 years but if someone got the WR with their one perfect run that they could never match, that still is the best performance of all time, even if they could only do it once.

I do not think that this argument is sound. Last year a swimmer named Kristof Milak gave a stupendous performance in the 200 meter butterfly, and beat the world record time of Michael Phelps that had stood for 18 years.

Milak's performance was the best ever. But is Milak the "best swimmer ever"?

Well, maybe he will turn out to be just that. Time will tell.

In American football, quarterback Tom Brady is riding high right now because he has won 7 Suoer Bowls -- an outrageously improbable accomplishment and one for which he is being lauded as the BEST ATHLETE IN ANY TEAM SPORT EVER!!!!

But none of his performances were as great as, for instance, that of the all-but-unknown Nick Foles who guided the Philadelphia Eagles to victory in Super Bowl LII.This despite the fact that Foles' statistical "quarterback rating" was only 106.1 (good, but not amazing. The Quarterback Rating by the way is a very complicated measure that takes into account not only various measures of success (passes completed, touchdowns to interception ratio, etc.), but also":difficulty" -- that is, strength of opponant, ability to get out of desperate predicaments, etc. As with PCS in figure skating, the qaurterback rating originally had the aim of giving 50 to an average performance, with 100 being the absolute top for perfect. What with grade inflation from season to season ...)

 

[TallyT]

Not really, a skater can be the best ever for even 1 competition, they still were the best ever. I don't think logevity has much to do with it. Yeah, "greatest of all time" perhaps, but "best" is IMO different. Like 100m hurdles, you can have an athlete run amazing times for 15 years but if someone got the WR with their one perfect run that they could never match, that still is the best performance of all time, even if they could only do it once.

But the original question from the OP was about greatest skater of all time? Not the greatest single performance and let's be honest here, figure skating plus scoring/judging being what it is, there is gonna be no way consensus will be reached on the greatest performance/program of all time anyway, WR or not.

 

[Mathman]

But the original question from the OP was about greatest skater of all time? Not the greatest single performance and let's be honest here, figure skating plus scoring/judging being what it is, there is gonna be no way consensus will be reached on the greatest performance/program of all time anyway, WR or not.

There is, of course, John Curry's Don Quixote at the 1976 Olympics.

 

[Skatesocs]

there is gonna be no way consensus will be reached on the greatest performance/program of all time anyway,

You don't need universal consensus. You need:

1. A broadly convincing argument, or
2. A panel of well-chosen critics to come to a consensus

Not that I think there's a point in investing towards doing so for skating.

There is, of course, John Curry's Don Quixote at the 1976 Olympics.

Lol.

 

[TallyT]

There is, of course, John Curry's Don Quixote at the 1976 Olympics.

And here I've been firmly and determinedly avoiding talking about the men... But let's look at say, dance. Virtue/Moir have the longest and glitteriest record there by a country mile but they still from my reading still get that "one of the greatest". I mean, what does it take?

You don't need universal consensus. You need:

1. A broadly convincing argument, or
2. A panel of well-chosen critics to come to a consensus

Not that I think there's a point in investing towards doing so for skating.


Lol.

If 'convincing' arguments worked - or if there was such a thing - there would be a lot less of these threads and they would be a lot shorter. And who chooses the critics - the ISU? We all know how well that award show was received...

 

[Skatesocs]

If 'convincing' arguments worked - or if there was such a thing - there would be a lot less of these threads and they would be a lot shorter. And who chooses the critics - the ISU? We all know how well that award show was received...

I wouldn't say so. I say that there's no point in doing so for skating - at all - but we do try for things like the Oscars, and the Grammies, so on and so forth. This is why I specifically didn't make references on how to accomplish it for skating , but there are attempts for doing it every year, and some even come up with lists of "greatest book of all time" and so on. Can be done or at least be attempted - can be completely misguided - just no point in it for skating.

 

[TontoK]

Being a particular fan of ladies who can spin fast and with excellent centering and with wonderful positions... you're all wrong.

The greatest skater by that measure, man or woman, is Lucinda Ruh.

 

[Dawn825]

Long careers aside, I'm not taking away the GOAT from Yu-Na, known for her jump technique, and giving it to someone with a flootz

 

[anonymoose_au]

There is, of course, John Curry's Don Quixote at the 1976 Olympics.

Or Plushy's 2004 Russian Nats LP (when I'm feeling down, I watch that performance )

But in terms of GOAT, we probably all have our own GOATs. I for one will always consider Roger Federer the GOAT of tennis no matter who breaks his records in the future.

 

[gliese]

You can't compare a skater now to a skater from Yuna's time. Think about the expectation alone; would Yuna have tried to land quads if that was the expectation and she had the means to do so (she was practicing triple axels, so it's not that far off anyway)? When she started skating, no one was thinking about women doing quads. I can tell you for sure I wouldn't be bruising my ass every time I get on the ice trying to get a double axel if it wasn't a requirement to do well in competition. And think about technology. Throughout her formative years, Yuna wore skates that did not fit her because there were no good skate shops near where she lived. This was common in her era and still is common now though to a lesser extent as figure skating is become more accessible and skaters are becoming more educated. Boots have also gotten so much lighter since Yuna debuted in 2007 as have blades. The scoring system has also changed throughout the years.

 

[Mathman]

... some even come up with lists of "greatest book of all time" and so on.

Euclid's Elements is the most influential secular book of all time, having been in continuous publication through more than 1000 editions ever since the invention of the printing press. It presented the model for logical thinking that still reigns two thousand years after its creation.

Second best: War and Peace, Tolstoy. ( A shout-out to Russian men.)

Edit: Actually, now that I think about it, the discussion of the "all-time great book" is somewhat relevant to this discussion after all. I believe that the two best-selling secular books of all time are"The Quotations of Chairman Mao" and "Harry Potter," with sales that swamp any literary pretenders from the past.

 

[el henry]

In American football, quarterback Tom Brady is riding high right now because he has won 7 Suoer Bowls -- an outrageously improbable accomplishment and one for which he is being lauded as the BEST ATHLETE IN ANY TEAM SPORT EVER!!!!

But none of his performances were as great as, for instance, that of the all-but-unknown Nick Foles who guided the Philadelphia Eagles to victory in Super Bowl LII.This despite the fact that Foles' statistical "quarterback rating" was only 106.1 (good, but not amazing. The Quarterback Rating by the way is a very complicated measure that takes into account not only various measures of success (passes completed, touchdowns to interception ratio, etc.), but also":difficulty" -- that is, strength of opponant, ability to get out of desperate predicaments, etc. As with PCS in figure skating, the qaurterback rating originally had the aim of giving 50 to an average performance, with 100 being the absolute top for perfect. What with grade inflation from season to season ...)

I have changed my mind. I am now firmly in favor of one shining competition making one the GOAT Now let’s see if Nick comes back home....

Sorry, back to our regularly scheduled conversation.

 

[Mathman]

And here I've been firmly and determinedly avoiding talking about the men... But let's look at say, dance. Virtue/Moir have the longest and glitteriest record there by a country mile but they still from my reading still get that "one of the greatest". I mean, what does it take.

I think the problem is that the word "great" or "greatest" lacks precission. Virtue and Moir were the most successful ice dancers.

They used to say about Michelle Kwan that she was the "most decorated" skater in U.S. history. This is something that can actually be decided. Take all the medals that each skater has won and put them on a scale. One skater emerges as the "most decorated."

When we change our language from "most" to "best,"then we have a prtoblem. After all, we have videos of Virtue and Moir's performances as well as the performances of other ice dancers to compare them with. It would be qperfectly defensible to claim that, for instance, Torvill and Dean were "better," although their medal haul was not "more."

 

[bookofcharms]

It feels like every year there‘s the same discussion and a season later you look back and either chuckle or feel sad - depending on personal, emotional involvement.

I agree. I struggle to get too invested in the young ladies because there's a high probability they will have very short careers.

I think it's one of the reasons why Tuktamysheva is my favourite lady - I do enjoy checking in on her every season to see what she is skating to and what her costumes are etc etc. It has been enjoyable following her career.

Although I suspect Medvedeva will continue to skate for a long time, as long as she recovers well from injury and illness.

For me, a great skater is one who has a long career, whose fans wait on the edge of their seat every season to see their music choices and programs and who has a really clear identity as an individual performer and an athlete. I just don't think it's possible for a skater to achieve this with a very short career.

 

[jenaj]

I didn't.

Sorry, not sure how your post got included in my response. i never intended to respond to you.

 

[TontoK]

For me, a great skater is one who has a long career, whose fans wait on the edge of their seat every season to see their music choices and programs and who has a really clear identity as an individual performer and an athlete. I just don't think it's possible for a skater to achieve this with a very short career.

For me, the greatest skaters are the ones I watch the most on YouTube. Considering the very many skaters and competitions and programs that I have seen, the "frequently viewed" list is pretty small. That certainly includes @Mathman's suggestion of John Curry 1976.

I think length of fandom (inelegant translation: age) has a lot to do with this discussion. Many of the contributors, who I suspect are of similar age to me, probably share my experiences.

We've seen a lot of skaters perform a lot of programs. Some have been the grandest of champions. Some have done serviceable work over the long haul. Some have had unrealized potential. Some could fairly be labeled as a flash in the pan.

As for the Russian ladies: there is not yet enough evidence to determine where they'll eventually land on that spectrum. I am hopeful for the "higher" end of range, but I suspect that will not be the case.

And... just in case anyone is interpreting this as anti-Russian bias... I view Tara Lipinski as a flash in the pan, and I don't care that she was a National, World and Olympic champion. I very rarely rewatch any of her performances, and if I do, it's to settle in my own mind some lingering question or refresh my memory.