Could one of the Russian ladies become the best ladies skater EVER next season?

Mathman

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
The best skater ever would be the one who would outscore in real competition all of the other skaters should they perform side by side in their best shape.

"Outscore"? What scoring system would you choose?

How about this one: 4 points for every Olympic gold medal, 1 point for every world championship. Sonja Henie outscores the field.

At least we can wait until one of the current crop actually accomplishes something before making a judgement as to who is the best.
 
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Skatesocs

Final Flight
Joined
May 16, 2020
2. Midori was killing everyone on jump layout. Especially in 80's. While you have girls who can jump multiple quads like Sasha +3A. Though no one has jumpd 4 types of quads yet. I give her that.
Yes, this is the only reason I'd give Trusova the edge. Midori the better jumper, and she's incorporated that into a great performance or two. Trusova really only exceeds her on going for even more dangerous layouts. I'd still give it to Trusova, but there's this caveat - I wouldn't call her GOAT like Midori before she actually delivers a fully confident performance or two of her own.
 

brakes

On the Ice
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Jan 31, 2020
I wasn't following figure skating back then, but I'm going to tell you - if I did, I would have thought development of women's skating had ended in 2014 with Yuna's retirement. What a phenomenal, technically brilliant and ABSURDLY CHARISMATIC skater! :drama:
Loved my Yulia, was excited for Lena-Liza and Evgenia's dominances, but getting to know who Yuna was, I understood it'd been transitional period and kinda justified constant grumbling of her fans recalling her greatness and denying new wave of skaters their accolades.
With arrival of Alina, and especially Anna, Sasha and Alyona my perception changed. They truly started a new era of skating and even if watching Yuna still gives me shivers, today's girls excel in completely different sport.

Being happy to witness Russian revolution in ladies skating, I pay my tribute to The Greatness I missed. :pray:🥰

 
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jenaj

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Yes, this is the only reason I'd give Trusova the edge. Midori the better jumper, and she's incorporated that into a great performance or two. Trusova really only exceeds her on going for even more dangerous layouts. I'd still give it to Trusova, but there's this caveat - I wouldn't call her GOAT like Midori before she actually delivers a fully confident performance or two of her own.

Okay. But in sports competitions they do not record the number of years in sports, and the WR plate appears when someone makes it better in history: runs the fastest, passes, swims, jumps higher, etc., that is, they are measured in seconds, meters, score, etc., but not in the years of being in a particular sport, medals are not given for this.
Every sport considers longevity when naming someone among the greatest of all time. Would Michael Jordan be considered among the GOATs if he had only won one championship and then retired? And even if he would be, he had multiple seasons behind him to consider. Bo Jackson was a star in baseball and football whose career was cut short by injury. His short career took him out of the running to be among the all-time greats. Is there any player in baseball, basketball or football hall of fame who only had one big season?
 

Shayuki

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Joined
Nov 2, 2013
They already are the best ladies' skaters ever. What do you mean "become"? Of course, which of them will be considered best will depend on many things, such as Olympics, although it's not really a strict requirement in my opinion.
 

Skatesocs

Final Flight
Joined
May 16, 2020
Every sport considers longevity when naming someone among the greatest of all time. Would Michael Jordan be considered among the GOATs if he had only won one championship and then retired? And even if he would be, he had multiple seasons behind him to consider. Bo Jackson was a star in baseball and football whose career was cut short by injury. His short career took him out of the running to be among the all-time greats. Is there any player in baseball, basketball or football hall of fame who only had one big season?
I said I wouldn't name her GOAT before that. :shrug: But I don't see why skating needs to have the same criteria as every other sport. It's supposed to be different :shrug:
 

Myr

Rinkside
Joined
Jun 29, 2020
I agree with the rest of this thread, they can't. They are amazing skaters but being a GOAT implies longevity, continued succes over a long period of time, proving yourself the best over and over again. This is impossible in one or two seasons.
 

Dawn825

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 19, 2021
As a senior Medvedeva had:
  • 2 seasons 2015-2016 and 2016-2017 where she won everything
  • 2017-2018: she won her challenger and GP events, placed 2nd at Europeans and the Olympics (GPF, Worlds and nationals she WD from)
  • 2018-2019: she placed third at Worlds and won the Russian Cup Final. She had 2 other podium finishes: silver at a challenger and third at Skate Canada. She also finished 4th at GP France and 7th at Nationals.
I know in hindsight no one wants to give EM the GOAT award because her career at the top wasn't so long and she didn't win the Olympics and was maybe a little controversial. But when she won 2017 Worlds after 2 years of dominance like nothing I'd ever seen before, I was ready to give it to her :bow:
 

Skater Boy

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Joined
Feb 24, 2012
A big fat NO! First there are great skaters from different eras. Second, there is Rika Khira Third none of them have been around long enough. It is possible Russia might not win gold in ladies at Beijing. There is Rika and maybe Liu from the US ifshe regains her 3A and 4T
 
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Mathman

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Jun 21, 2003
But I don't see why skating needs to have the same criteria as every other sport. It's supposed to be different :shrug:
I think that is the main point here.

In a sport like track and field at least there is an objective way to measure excellence that can be applied to all eras -- who ran the fastest.If it turned out that Achilles posted better times than Usain Bolt, well, there you go.

But in skating the criteria are constantly evolving. I have marveled over old grainy film of Ulrich Salchow. What if Nathan Chen could be transported back in time a hundred years to take on Salchow head to head. What would the judges say? Wow, what an entertaining circus act -- doing a series of tumbling passes while wearing ice skates! :clap: :clap: :clap:

But in terms of who is the better figure skater, that's a different question -- certainly it was a different question back then.
 

yume

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 11, 2016
Asking for longevity is too much for these girls. With that domestic field, staying 4-5 seasons or more at the top would demand to upgrade their layout almost every season.
Those who are named as the greatests didn't do that. In fact a skater like Yuna downgraded her layouts but still won worlds and olys with that. This generation doesn't have this luck. If Kostornaya who has the same GOE strength never recovers the 3A, she has basically 0 chances to win big competitions like last season. Now you have to add more quads and 3A. If quads are allowed in SP, i think that in a few seasons, quad AND a 3A will be mandatory in that program to win. The level is just insane now and we can't realistically expect skaters (especially those for who the hardest element is a 3-3) to keep up with the youngsters.

Personnally i consider junior achievements in the evaluation of longevity. For me Trusova is in the top 3-4 best skaters since 4 seasons, not 2.
 
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yume

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Joined
Mar 11, 2016
Yes, this is the only reason I'd give Trusova the edge. Midori the better jumper, and she's incorporated that into a great performance or two. Trusova really only exceeds her on going for even more dangerous layouts. I'd still give it to Trusova, but there's this caveat - I wouldn't call her GOAT like Midori before she actually delivers a fully confident performance or two of her own.
Midly agree. Diversity of jumps goes to Trusova. Even if she's far to be consistent with some of them.

So far Trusova's best performance is her FS at 2018 junior worlds imo. Two quads but also three different triples combos. That was a complete technical demonstration and the program wasn't too bad.
 

Mathman

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
.Now you have to add more quads and 3A. If quads are allowed in SP, i think that in a few seasons, quad AND a 3A will be mandatory in that program to win. The level is just insane...
The reason, to me, why this argument is not totally convincing is that it tacitly assumes that the only thing on the table is how manty quads and triple Axe;s a skater does.

While the number of revolutions that the current crop is capable of squeezing into a 4-minute program is, indeed, insane, in a competitive sport there is only one thing -- winning. Nothing else really counts. Yes, the competition might be stronger or weaker one year than another, but the GOAT is the one who is left standing at the top of the hill having taken ol all comers, competition after competition and year after year.

(On the other hand, I suppose one could say, "Just because a person is king for a long time doesn't mean that he was a good king. Example: Mikhail Botvinnik was world chess champion almost continually from 1948 to 1963. But you would have to be a real chess nerd not to find his style boring. ;) )
 

yume

Record Breaker
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Mar 11, 2016
The reason, to me, why this argument is not totally convincing is that it tacitly assumes that the only thing on the table is how manty quads and triple Axe;s a skater does.

While the number of revolutions that the current crop is capable of squeezing into a 4-minute program is, indeed, insane, in a competitive sport there is only one thing -- winning. Nothing else really counts. Yes, the competition might be stronger or weaker one year than another, but the GOAT is the one who is left standing at the top of the hill having taken ol all comers, competition after competition and year after year.

(On the other hand, I suppose one could say, "Just because a person is king for a long time doesn't mean that he was a good king. Example: Mikhail Botvinnik was world chess champion almost continually from 1948 to 1963. But you would have to be a real chess nerd not to find his style boring. ;) )
Well, wins and longevity depend of those quads and 3A now.

I think we can say that x skater who won olys and worlds was the best during A era but not better than the one who won only worlds during B era. Titles depend strongly of the competitors.

Lepistö won euros once with 4 triples LP. It isn't because she won euros that she's automatically better than say Radionova who came second twice while skating two clean programs that had way more difficulty.

That's why the only comparison that truly matters is the face-to-face imo.
 

Delienne

Rinkside
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Jul 1, 2020
I still think Yuna's the purest ladies talent that the ice has ever seen. She used to train 3axels , but why risk injuries when she could collect points and win without it. I think if Yuna was 14 today, she would train ultra-c like all the other talented ladies.
Also, sorry if I sound Koola-like but Yuna's consistent height and textbook techniche is still unmachted. Talking just about potential, the best ladies skater ever should have high effortless, non-muscled jumps with perfect take off, otherwise she's not the best ever.
I was at the GPF in Turin last year and I have to say, Anna and Sasha's quads-compared to Yuma's or Shun's quads, for example- looked like a crazy fast swirl in the air, rather than a jump that's actually bigger than its triple . (The lack of flow and SS was also way more visible that in videos,(especially for Anna), and it did take away a lot of the enjoyment too. )
 

Shayuki

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Joined
Nov 2, 2013
I agree with the rest of this thread, they can't. They are amazing skaters but being a GOAT implies longevity, continued succes over a long period of time, proving yourself the best over and over again. This is impossible in one or two seasons.
Not really, a skater can be the best ever for even 1 competition, they still were the best ever. I don't think logevity has much to do with it. Yeah, "greatest of all time" perhaps, but "best" is IMO different. Like 100m hurdles, you can have an athlete run amazing times for 15 years but if someone got the WR with their one perfect run that they could never match, that still is the best performance of all time, even if they could only do it once.
 

jenaj

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Aug 17, 2003
Country
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I said I wouldn't name her GOAT before that. :shrug: But I don't see why skating needs to have the same criteria as every other sport. It's supposed to be different :shrug:
Well, you did talk about sports competitions in general. There is no sport that I can think of that has anointed an athlete with only one or two years of a competitive record as among the greatest of all time.
 

kirauza343

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 1, 2020
Not really, a skater can be the best ever for even 1 competition, they still were the best ever. I don't think logevity has much to do with it. Yeah, "greatest of all time" perhaps, but "best" is IMO different. Like 100m hurdles, you can have an athlete run amazing times for 15 years but if someone got the WR with their one perfect run that they could never match, that still is the best performance of all time, even if they could only do it once.
Best ever performance is not the same as the best ever skater/athlete.
 

Fluture

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Apr 26, 2018
Marketing-wise, I don't think this "progression" is good. People grow to like someone, then they blink and that said athlete may have already "paused" their career. Makes people care not as deeply because you don't want to become too attached.

This! So much this! (just that I‘m incorrigible and grow attached to the juniors anyway - see my avatar lol)

It feels like every year there‘s the same discussion and a season later you look back and either chuckle or feel sad - depending on personal, emotional involvement. First it was supposed to be Lipnitskaya vs. Medvedeva, then Medvedva vs. Radionova, then Medvedeva vs. Zagitova, then the 3A... and each time you grow attached to the athletes, you find your favorites and are prepared to cheer for them for many years, through victories and losses. But all you get is one or two seasons where they‘re “it“ and then there‘s already the next wunderkid and the old guard is surpassed completely. Even though they‘re what - 17? 18? At that age you‘re basically still a kid mentally and you‘re already outdated in a sport that you spent your entire childhood on? That you worked yourself to blood, sweat and tears? I find that sad.

And yes, this is a rant. (TL/DR at the bottom because this is most probably going to be a lot of inconsistent rambling nonsense) I understand people like it and that’s okay. But I‘ve felt my enjoyment for skating - that was once very, very prominent - slip away in the past few months. I watch it and there are happy moments but it does not hold the same kind of emotions and joy I used to have. And how could there? I just got attached to the 3A last year and now I already know that these bright, talented kids I cheered on at the Europeans will have at best two more years at the top before the new ones take (Samodelkina, Akatieva etc.) over? It’s frustrating and as a young woman myself, it‘s also entirely baffling and yep; rather unsettling. I mean...all these years of work and that‘s...it? Two-three years, one shot at the Olympics if you‘re lucky and were born at the right time?

It does have its positive sides, though: Like I said, it‘s not like I don‘t enjoy the skating of juniors - Akatieva and Petrosyan were brilliant at Junior Nats.

So, here‘s the thing: I like skating, I like this sport - or rather what this sport could be like. And I‘m not talking about the Yuna (or Kwan‘s skating) era. In fact, I actually prefer the way programs are constructed right now. I would watch Yulia Lipnitskaya or Evgenia Medvedeva or even Alina Zagitova and Anna Shcherbakova who I‘m not that much a fan of over most Yuna-Mao-Caro programs. (i even got used to the quads lol) But what makes those three unique is that they were there for a long time - they traded places on the podium for many years, fans could cheer them on and grow attached. At one point, I was stupidly thinking the 3A could become a more technically advanced version of them. But they can‘t and they won‘t. Because in 2023, there will be a new trio and two years after that another one. For how long? Who knows. But I‘m not sure I‘m prepared to wait.

And yes, I am aware this is a result of the sport changing so rapidly. I do not have a solution to fix it and I don‘t know if it even needs fixing. After all, some people enjoy skating the way it‘s progressing right now and that‘s great! But I like the emotional component - rooting for people (not idolizing them, that doesn‘t end well lol), watching them progress technically and artistically. If that‘s not possible, if the faces change faster than you can say “quadruple toeloop“... well.

I‘ve said enough already. Rant over. For the sake of the thread, though: My definition of a GOAT (because that‘s a subjective term if I‘ve ever seen one - especially in skating) includes some kind of longevity. So, no, I don‘t think any of the current Russian ladies will be able to do it. Not because they lack in talent or will or determination but because they lack in time. As simple as that.

TL/DR: I like skating, I even like skating the way it is now in terms of programs. I paradoxically don‘t like the fact that it has developed into a sport that makes longevity (meaning, being able to stay close to the top for longer than 3 years) close to impossible. Being “the greatest of all time“, in my book, includes a certain kind of longevity, thus I don‘t think any of the current Russian ladies skaters will be able to achieve such a status.
 
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Giu

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 13, 2019
I still think Yuna's the purest ladies talent that the ice has ever seen. She used to train 3axels , but why risk injuries when she could collect points and win without it. I think if Yuna was 14 today, she would train ultra-c like all the other talented ladies.
Also, sorry if I sound Koola-like but Yuna's consistent height and textbook techniche is still unmachted. Talking just about potential, the best ladies skater ever should have high effortless, non-muscled jumps with perfect take off, otherwise she's not the best ever.
I was at the GPF in Turin last year and I have to say, Anna and Sasha's quads-compared to Yuma's or Shun's quads, for example- looked like a crazy fast swirl in the air, rather than a jump that's actually bigger than its triple . (The lack of flow and SS was also way more visible that in videos,(especially for Anna), and it did take away a lot of the enjoyment too. )
I was there too and I couldn’t agree more with you
 
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