COC - Ladies Long ponderings (Spoilers)

[Andalusia]

What cracks me up about Caroline's LP is that after she had the first fall, she actually reaches down to scratch her leg or something right before she goes into the spiral. She's one cool cat, that Caroline.

And grats to her on a beautiful triple-triple combo!

 

[netnuts]

What cracks me up about Caroline's LP is that after she had the first fall, she actually reaches down to scratch her leg or something right before she goes into the spiral. She's one cool cat, that Caroline.

And grats to her on a beautiful triple-triple combo!

Just I just read an interview with her coach and mother. She was injuried a bit before coming to China. It's probably not all that serious, but they had to put some painkiller on her leg...

Her coach also suggested her replace 3+3 with 3+2 to be safe since it's not ratified at SA, but Caroline insisted on doing 3+3. I'm glad she went ahead, both of her 3+3 looked much much stronger than what she did at SA.

 

[Andalusia]

Her coach also suggested her replace 3+3 with 3+2 to be safe since it's not ratified at SA, but Caroline insisted on doing 3+3. I'm glad she went ahead, both of her 3+3 looked much much stronger than what she did at SA.

Not only a cool cat, but a determined one.

In the Russian broadcast, no less than Tatiana Tarasova remarked "Cheesta, cheesta" after she had landed the triple-triple combo. Can any Russian speakers translate what that means? I'm guessing it's good since Tarasova said the same thing when Johnny hit some of his beautiful triples.

 

[feraina]

I'll try translating the article I think Netnuts was just referring to. If I miss out on something, please help me out.

http://sports.sohu.com/20071111/n253176726.shtml
(There's also a cute photo of Caroline with her sister, unless she has a very young-looking mother)

Caroline Zhang (OO) Only Second Place at CoC, Mother Reveals Hidden Cause Behind Results

Just after the first group finished at the Cup of China Grand Prix ladie's freestyle event, during the 4-minute warm-up, one woman in the audience sits with her arms crossed in front, her head buried very low. She is the mother of Chinese-American skater OO. OO will skate after Yu-na Kim in the second group of FS, because she placed in second, ahead of Yu-na, in the SP.

Toe-pick, take-off, rotate, landing -- as Hungarian skater Sebestyen fell to the ground on her triple lutz, OO's mother's hands came together again. There is still some time before OO skates, first in a few minutes Yu-na Kim will take the ice.

"I really like Yu-na Kim, she skates really wonderfully. But I really wish OO doesn't have to skate after her," OO's mother said with some regret. And just as she thought, although Kim made some mistakes in the short program, she completed a beautiful free skate to achieve a high score of 122.36, which creates great pressure for the skaters coming after her.

This is OO's first year competing in Seniors. So far this season, her best freeskate score is only 97.58. With a planned program of similar technical content, competing with Kim's high score is a high order.

"There, there's still more needs to be picked up!" said OO's rinkside mother with great worry. Because a great many Korean fans came to watch, after Kim's performance, they threw everything they brought into the rink: roses alone there were 30-40 stems! All six flower girls/boys went out to collect, and it still took them five minutes.

OO picked up still more gifts off the ice, as she went out for her last-minute warm-up -- meanwhile her mother worriedly watched her with her hands together as though in prayer again.

As music sounds, lyrical violin music plays Franz Schubert's most successful song "Ave Maria." With this program, OO won the bronze at Skate America. Triple flip-triple toe, this was done by OO faultlessly. Immediately after, she completed another difficult combination, triple lutz-double toe, without any problem. In the audience, her mother and sister both cheered her on enthusiastically.

After a beautiful spin, OO starts to prepare for a relatively easy 3F. However, because she picked a little too hard, she couldn't control her body in the air, and fell hard onto the ice. Just now, Ms. Zhang's hands froze in mid-air, unsure what to do after an initial urge to clap. Right after, it's a 3Z, OO fell to the ice again. This time, Ms. Zhang seems almost unable to control herself, both of her hands went to her open mouth, seemingly wanting to keep down the scream that threatened to burst out.

"She fell more in this competition than any previous ones", OO's coach Li MingZu says, "I think this is related to her injury." Even when she was practicing, OO often reached down to touch her right ankle (I think ankle, or is it heel?). Before coming to China, she was already injured -- while competing, she needed painkillers to control the pain.

Coach Li revealed, before the competition she suggested to change the 3F/3T to 3F/2T, because after rule changes in the CoP, OO's clean 3/3 was not ratified at Skate America. "But she insisted that everything she does she must do her very best, therefore, in this competition we still went for the 3/3, thank goodness this time the technical panel ratified the difficulty."

96.87, that's OO's FS score at this Cup of China, with which she renewed her seasonal best. Afterwards, despite the silver she was very happy. Her mother said that originally they didn't think she'd get second place, but rather with her best she might place third. OO immediately protested, indicating that actually she came with desire to fight for the gold.

 

[feraina]

Not only a cool cat, but a determined one.

In the Russian broadcast, no less than Tatiana Tarasova remarked "Cheesta, cheesta" after she had landed the triple-triple combo. Can any Russian speakers translate what that means? I'm guessing it's good since Tarasova said the same thing when Johnny hit some of his beautiful triples.

She also said so after the replay of Caroline's 3/3. I thought maybe it meant "clean", or maybe a generic "wonderful."

 

[bubbleyum]

just watched zhang and yuna's long programs on youtube. even with the falls, caroline did a good job. the program really suits her style, and i really do think the condition of the ice is affecting everybody's skating (even yuna had to dig in to save a couple of her landings, and popped a lutz, plus her skating seemed much slower than her usual speed). i am also impressed that this little girl is such a hard worker and it especially shows in that 3-3.

now, as for yuna's program.... i blame david wilson, i'm sorry. but this program is so disappointing. the music has NO CLIMAX at all, and the footwork sequence, which should be a highlight of any skater's long program, and something that yuna has the ability to totally do well, just falls flat! in the beginning part of the program they loaded it up with jump after jump with no interesting transitions.

the new choreography just dumbed down qualities that yuna was loved for last season. the only reason why yuna was able to still get first is because she was able to skate it technically better than anybody else. can you imagine if she had falls like at worlds last year? after lark ascending, even with the falls, ppl were like, she has such great musicality and artistry and the program is so beautiful, it's a shame she didn't skate it clean. i don't think the same could be said about this program with a bunch of mistakes and falls. and i thought lark ascending was choreographed by david wilson anyways? (and jeff buttle too i think) what happened??

i really really hope that getting only a level one in the step sequence is gonna make team yuna go back to canada and rework this program!

 

[indicatoto101]

An online dictionary says "cheesta" is PURE.

 

[bekalc]

the new choreography just dumbed down qualities that yuna was loved for last season. the only reason why yuna was able to still get first is because she was able to skate it technically better than anybody else. can you imagine if she had falls like at worlds last year? after lark ascending, even with the falls, ppl were like, she has such great musicality and artistry and the program is so beautiful, it's a shame she didn't skate it clean. i don't think the same could be said about this program with a bunch of mistakes and falls. and i thought lark ascending was choreographed by david wilson anyways? (and jeff buttle too i think) what happened??

I think what happened is that Yu-na's team felt that the choregraphy for lark was just to much. It was so intricate and difficult and it just tired Yu-na out. I think they feel that by watering her choregrapher down, she'd be more likely to skate a clean program.

Given that Yu-an got her personal best here, it's hard not to argue with their decision about having a more watered down program.. Yu-na said in an interview that she herself was not to happy with the performance aspect of her skate, and so that's something she will go home and work on. So maybe they will make some improvements on the program. (I kind of do think they can reach a little more of a middle ground between (Lark and Miss Saigon) As for the footwork, some said that Yu-na made some mistakes/was tenative, I think the footwork could get better.

How sweet, of Caroline's mother to say such nice things about Yu-na's skating. And I agree with her that it probably was pretty hard for Caroline to skate after hearing Yu-na's scores. Can I say this, good for Caroline Zhang for going for that 3/3. She's earned so much respect from me for that. Personally, I think Johnny Weir could learn lesson from that girl. Personally, I think I've been way to hard on Caroline. I think she has some work to do, but she's only 14.

 

[passion]

Congrats to Yu Na and Caroline! Yu Na has the most textbook perfect jumps! The technique is exquisite. Her speed and flow and command over the ice is really stunning, too. She is truly in a class of her own (25 point lead!!!!). The most flexible skater doesn't necessarily win and that was nice to see.

Caroline should be so proud of herself for medaling in both of her first senior competitions, let alone Grand Prix events AND for making it to the final! She has a bright future ahead of her.

 

[R.D.]

Caroline should be so proud of herself for medaling in both of her first senior competitions, let alone Grand Prix events AND for making it to the final! She has a bright future ahead of her.

Agreed...and may I add, should NOT let the inevitable pressure and comparisons to Kwan do her in.

 

[bekalc]

Agreed...and may I add, should NOT let the inevitable pressure and comparisons to Kwan do her in.

Exactly, let me her be the next Caroline Zhang and leave it like that. She's not Michelle, and that's an okay thing.

 

[kasia16]

She also said so after the replay of Caroline's 3/3. I thought maybe it meant "clean", or maybe a generic "wonderful."

It means 'clean'.

Btw, do you know who is the guy that is commentating with Tarsova?
They both rock

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Big Decision: Caroline has had her two GPs, and she's earned a bronze and silver. Will 24 get her to the Finals? I'll bet she ties a few.

Joe

 

[feraina]

Time to start a new thread in GPF section, methinks. :yes:

 

[kikakiks]

womens long

To Zhang's uber fans:

I understand almost everyone (at least 90%) in this forum is American, but this chaos on Zhang is unacceptable!

The girl is lovely to whatch, she has great potential, wonderful spins and spirals, BUT SHE IS NOT A CHAMPION RIGHT NOW! (even though I predict she will be in the near future!)

So,

1st: I believe a lot of people would like to stop hearing how her Pcs are too low because THEY ARE NOT!

2nd: Not feeling she is your next favorite skater, and pointing out her defects does not mean you HATE her. Just means you recognize there are better skaters out there (right now Kim, Asada, Ando, Rochette, Nakano, Meier,etc. and also those who are not great performers like Czisny….) Also EVERYONE HAS THEIR PERSONAL TASTES: :banging: If I don't like Zhang I am not wrong, as much as a Zhang fan does not like Czisny…

3rd: Zhang has been very lucky in her first two senior outings: weak competition at Skate America and complete meltdown of everyone (especially disaster Kostner: if Caro K had skated not well, but DECENTLY, Zhang would have two third places with little chance of a GP final)….This does not mean she is the new Kween already!!!! Give the little girl a break!

4th: -same issue with Kimmie Meissner here- Having SOME PRETTY GOOD qualities (but not exceptional in my mind, and I'm not the only one..:think and being A FIGHTER / GOOD COMPETITOR means she will have a brilliant competitive future and that she will be a winner bow:soon) but DOESN'T MEAN SHE IS THE BEST SKATER OUT THERE. Please, her fans' obsession is seriously making me like her less (just as when you like a skater but when judges tend to favor her you start disliking her).
There are skaters with a lot more qualities and more complete out there! And people do not insult those who don't like them! She is really cute and pleasant to watch, but she is not the absolute best (and fortunately for her she knows so, and is improving accordingly)

5th: Going back to Zhangs qualities: She is flexible and a good spinner. Full stop.
Her spirals seem good because she is flexible, but her edges and speed are ELEMENTARY!
Because of these two qualities and a VERY QUESTIONABLE (also irritating to watch) jumping technique, she is not the best out there!
So, if there are people who are not crazy in love with her just live with it!

For example, the skaters I support are not the top except Kim and Asada (they are Kostner, Poykio, Nakano, Czisny): I just like them because I think they have the better qualities (even if not good competitors) and I recognize it's a completely subjective thing. I don't spend all my time trying to convince other people! (even if I am human and I will probably do it soon or later...but for sure at a lower level!)
So, remind yourselves that also you Zhang fans are subjective like everyone else….


6th and last: I feel sorry for the poor girl, she is only 14 and now has lovers and enemies because of the obsessive hype around her! There are plenty of good skaters to talk about without having to obsess about Zhang (i.e. Vahaama is just as promising, but since she's not super bendy and as much consistent very few people talk about her!) For those who still think Zhang is being hurt in the judging because she is American....I actually think that if she were to be Swiss noone would talk about her this much and she would have had lower results...


I might have forgotten something but this is already too long. I hope my comments didn't come off as too strong, but this issue has been bugging me for quite a but now, so i felt like dedicating it a topic, instead of filling the competition threads….

 

[fairly4]

yes her pcs scores are too low.it isn't because she is young.
if that is they case than Mao's and Yu Na Kims, and Kimmies pcs scores were overrated. did anyone complain about them coming in with high scores. No.
did they nit-pick (score as hard)no. they waited and are still overlooking.
why they graded Joannies spins (her first two --to high) gave her a level 3 with doing only two spins. her first two jumps should have been downgraded. it wasn't.
Emily second jump should have been downgraded it wasn't.
You look closely they all jump they same, so when they downgrade one jumping the same and not the other (it is cheating and favoriting) their skaters.
But than I notice Skate Canada seems to cheat (overlook) most skaters faults in their juding. I noticed more mistakes that was overlooked and not penalized for in takeoff jumping, landing, prerotating, underrotating.
they looked forward to it. they didn't care that their scores, pcs and all (kimmie, mao's, yu-na kims,. they looked forward to it. they relished it and was happy and willing to defend them.

but when A youngChinese American girl comes in at a young age. everyone complains. stating she is too young, not good technique, not this or that.
i don't seem to recall that Tara, Sarahs jumps, prerotated, underrotated,wrong edge artistrty (even though is was under the old system) was saying anything wrong. you was saying look at the potential. look out for them. see what they can do--let them in -and do their best.
as a matter of fact at the same time another Chines American girl (michelle kwan) -you was saying she is too old, she does this wrong, she does that wrong-wrong technique --low jumps (tara), slow -(sarah), doublefoot (oskana).
however when we say the same things about Mira Leung, Joannie Rochette, Jeffrey Buttle. you defend them.
Yet when people try to defend Caroline Z everyone gets up in arms, stating she doesn't belong their.

that is also because the all the skaters aren't as good as what we (fans) make them out to be. They are human-make mistakes.
Yes-she has potential -but why penalize her for being young, afterall we as fans, judges, skaters, didn't penzalize Mao, Yu-Na, Kimmie, Tara, Sarah, Oskana, Sasha for being young. we relished it and gave them our support, pushed to keep improving and doing their best and staying on top.
Why not force the older skaters to skate better-they been in it longer and should know what to expect instead of it being handed to them. Isn't that what European and Canadians fans expected of Michelle to change her programs, skate better, to triple-triple's change how she skated --but not Sasha, Irina, Sarah, Tara,
Isn't what Canadian/Europeans fans some (american)said Michelle was too Old to skate to make room for younger skaters. so now the US has a younger ones and we want our older skaters to skate better (instead of making the older skaters skate better) you are saying Caroline Zhang is too young. (let our older skaters alone)let them be and skate as lousy as possible and still be up their.
Lets pick on a 14 year old because she can take it better than the 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23 on up better.
yes-she might have some but so does the older skaters. yet not is making them change how they skate. yet =that is what this system is supposed to do,but it doesn't. why--because they never force the older skaters to change _Sasha, Irina, Michelle, Mao's, Kimmie, Yu-Na, Joannie, Caroline Kostner, Yukari-they overlooked it (or made up points in their spins)
See if they graded right they are supposed to take off points on their jumps and in the GOE and not make up for it in spins-bu they overlook that and have pity on the skaters --why because They former, skaters, coaches etc who still judge skating.



The problem is--she is just as good the skaters up their. Us (fans) are worried about our favorite skater (and maybe Caroline's future). although by the reaction i am not sure.
No-one can look at it objectively anymore. they all want their Favorite Skater and Skater from their own Country up-there-will do anything to keep up there.

I am sorry. I got off track

 

[Mathman]

I have never understood why poeple get mad just because a skater has some enthusiastic fans. So what?

If Caroline's skating lifts your spirits and makes your heart sing, OK.

If it doesn't, OK.

 

[kikakiks]

I am not sure if I undersood your point well.

one first thing: I think (hope) you were not referring to me when you say "you", but to a "general person", since I haven't been around enough on this board (and actually don't remeber myself defending any Sasha or Michelle.

Then, the main point you made is about the underrotation: I think it is not a nitpicking against CaroZ, but a change in the system that happened this year. This happened in the same moment che appeared in the senior spotlight, but she wasn't the only one hurt at SA. It is true tough what you say about SC: they were less strict, but it's not because they are against Zhang, it's because there was a different tech specialist! At Cup of China they were again less strict and she got all her jump ratified except the ones in which she fell (and actually, i would have downgraded her few more, at least the flip in the short...but this is not the point)

The point is that it's RIDICULOUS that people think she is being hurt in judging...this makes me really wondering, since ALL OF US go so crazy for a skater, that you forget she is 14 and not wonder woman! The fact is that if Mao had come up on the scene this year, probably her flutzing and underrotated loops in combos would have been penalized. Full stop. we talk about this bc now it is A REALITY IN THE JUDGING SYSTEM.

And honestly, noone was complaining on YuNa jumping technique bc there was no reason to do so...

Instead of being blind fans, it would be useful sometimes to understand why some specific critique is made! Accept the critique, then YOU CAN STILL LIKE HER, that is your subjective choice and you have the right to take it according to your own parameters.

I hope I was clear...

 

[kikakiks]

I have never understood why poeple get mad just because a skater has some enthusiastic fans. So what?

If Caroline's skating lifts your spirits and makes your heart sing, OK.

If it doesn't, OK.

Maybe i wasn't clear enough but I'm sure I made a point about how everyone can make their choice and support whoever they want.

I am not mad at her having enthusiastic fans: I am annoyed when people complain about judging and would have liked her to already be a champion in both Grand prix (blaming on how low her pcs were against people with at least 3 years more of competitive career....lol this cracks me up! some old skaters are inferior to her, but people would like the same pcs as yu na and mao!), when instead they should be happy that she made two podium finishes!

Hope it makes sense

 

[demarinis5]

To Zhang's uber fans:
After reading the first pages of the CoC women's long thread I think everyone should read the point I am making:

I understand almost everyone (at least 90%) in this forum is American, but this chaos on Zhang is unacceptable!

The girl is lovely to whatch, she has great potential, wonderful spins and spirals, BUT SHE IS NOT A CHAMPION RIGHT NOW! (even though I predict she will be in the near future!)

So,

1st: I believe a lot of people would like to stop hearing how her Pcs are too low because THEY ARE NOT!

2nd: Not feeling she is your next favorite skater, and pointing out her defects does not mean you HATE her. Just means you recognize there are better skaters out there (right now Kim, Asada, Ando, Rochette, Nakano, Meier,etc. and also those who are not great performers like Czisny….) Also EVERYONE HAS THEIR PERSONAL TASTES: :banging: If I don't like Zhang I am not wrong, as much as a Zhang fan does not like Czisny…

3rd: Zhang has been very lucky in her first two senior outings: weak competition at Skate America and complete meltdown of everyone (especially disaster Kostner: if Caro K had skated not well, but DECENTLY, Zhang would have two third places with little chance of a GP final)….This does not mean she is the new Kween already!!!! Give the little girl a break!

4th: -same issue with Kimmie Meissner here- Having SOME PRETTY GOOD qualities (but not exceptional in my mind, and I'm not the only one..:think and being A FIGHTER / GOOD COMPETITOR means she will have a brilliant competitive future and that she will be a winner bow:soon) but DOESN'T MEAN SHE IS THE BEST SKATER OUT THERE. Please, her fans' obsession is seriously making me like her less (just as when you like a skater but when judges tend to favor her you start disliking her).
There are skaters with a lot more qualities and more complete out there! And people do not insult those who don't like them! She is really cute and pleasant to watch, but she is not the absolute best (and fortunately for her she knows so, and is improving accordingly)

5th: Going back to Zhangs qualities: She is flexible and a good spinner. Full stop.
Her spirals seem good because she is flexible, but her edges and speed are ELEMENTARY!
Because of these two qualities and a VERY QUESTIONABLE (also irritating to watch) jumping technique, she is not the best out there!
So, if there are people who are not crazy in love with her just live with it!

For example, the skaters I support are not the top except Kim and Asada (they are Kostner, Poykio, Nakano, Czisny): I just like them because I think they have the better qualities (even if not good competitors) and I recognize it's a completely subjective thing. I don't spend all my time trying to convince other people! (even if I am human and I will probably do it soon or later...but for sure at a lower level!)
So, remind yourselves that also you Zhang fans are subjective like everyone else….


6th and last: I feel sorry for the poor girl, she is only 14 and now has lovers and enemies because of the obsessive hype around her! There are plenty of good skaters to talk about without having to obsess about Zhang (i.e. Vahaama is just as promising, but since she's not super bendy and as much consistent very few people talk about her!) For those who still think Zhang is being hurt in the judging because she is American....I actually think that if she were to be Swiss noone would talk about her this much and she would have had lower results...


I might have forgotten something but this is already too long. I hope my comments didn't come off as too strong, but this issue has been bugging me for quite a but now, so i felt like dedicating it a topic, instead of filling the competition threads….

Good lord are we in school now. This is a public forum and I find your post offensive and I am not a uber Zhang fan. Instead of chastising fans of Zhang or Meissner why don't you start a thread about your favorites. Thanks for the chuckle I always like a chuckle with my morning coffee.