COC - Ladies Long ponderings (Spoilers)
- Thread starter fairly4
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than Zhang.
I don't think it's really necessary to start a post criticizing Zhang...I mean if you want to complain about the hype, then why not go to certain threads that were already started because well there are plenty of them!
This being said Fairly. I must say. Just because Yu-na and Mao got higher PC scores starting out, doesn't necessarily mean that Caroline deserves the same scores.
They are three different skaters, and I think both Mao and Yu-na were stronger going into there first Senior season, then Caroline is. This doesn't mean one's more talent then the other because the ages were different, it's just a point I'm making. I mean Caroline got higher PCS than Ashley.. And while I think that Caroline is better presentation wise than Ashley, I thought given how the PCS went in Canada. That Wagner and her team have a lot more reason to cry foul than Caroline's does. But what can you do, every skater is different and every skater is received differently. It's not everyone is equal skill wise, going into the Senior level.
As for nitpicking. Tara Lipinski got lambasted and her flutz especially was criticized. In fact Tara still gets lambasted for beating Kwan.
As for Sarah, she never got the same lambesting Tara got because she didn't beat Kwan as often until the Olympics. But yes people have heavily criticized her technique.
I just watched a tape of Mao Asada in France two years ago. While Mao clearly needed some help with arms and presenting to the audience more... What Mao did have and Paul Wylie commented on was great ice coverage, and nice speed. This is an area of Caroline's skating that she really needs to work on.
This being said Fairly. I must say. Just because Yu-na and Mao got higher PC scores starting out, doesn't necessarily mean that Caroline deserves the same scores.
They are three different skaters, and I think both Mao and Yu-na were stronger going into there first Senior season, then Caroline is. This doesn't mean one's more talent then the other because the ages were different, it's just a point I'm making. I mean Caroline got higher PCS than Ashley.. And while I think that Caroline is better presentation wise than Ashley, I thought given how the PCS went in Canada. That Wagner and her team have a lot more reason to cry foul than Caroline's does. But what can you do, every skater is different and every skater is received differently. It's not everyone is equal skill wise, going into the Senior level.
As for nitpicking. Tara Lipinski got lambasted and her flutz especially was criticized. In fact Tara still gets lambasted for beating Kwan.
As for Sarah, she never got the same lambesting Tara got because she didn't beat Kwan as often until the Olympics. But yes people have heavily criticized her technique.
I just watched a tape of Mao Asada in France two years ago. While Mao clearly needed some help with arms and presenting to the audience more... What Mao did have and Paul Wylie commented on was great ice coverage, and nice speed. This is an area of Caroline's skating that she really needs to work on.
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- Nov 8, 2007
I don't hate Zhang and the topic was not on hating her. I said at least twice that I like watching her skate.
Bekalc, I read your posts with attention, and (if I haven't mistaken your posts with somene else's your not in my crazy zhang's list anyway....
)I wasn't trying to limit anyone's opinions as I said at the end of the first post and in the second one: everyone is entitled to their favorite!
THE MAIN POINT (I will repeat) is not about eliminating her fans (never said that!)
It's about giving the girl a break and not complaining about her low (?) pcs! OMG, the girl is 14, she is already super mature for that age. people can't possibly belive she should beat in presentation more mature skaters. Bashing the judges is pointless. As already said her fans SHOULD BE EXTREMELY HAPPY ABOUT HER PERFORMANCES AND THE POINTS RECEIVED, which were just fine for the charming girl she is and the technical side she portrayed.
Hope finally the meaning of the post went through
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- Nov 8, 2007
P.s. I don't need to start any thread on my favorites since I would have very subjective opinions in defending them. I will probably do so time by time, as competitions go by (hoping not to act myself as a crazy fan!:agree
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- Oct 12, 2005
Putting aside technique for the moment, there is just something beautiful and different about Caroline Chang that makes her a joy to watch. I would say the same about Mao and Kim and of course, Alyssa. I'll sit through an Emily Hughes performance with the lumbering jumps just for the spiral and layback. I'll sit through Miki Ado (when she's on) for her splendid jumps. However, Kimmie and most of the other ladies, no matter how good their technique, are just dull. Sorry. It doesn't mean they aren't lovely, skilled young women. I'll watch of course, but the average non-fanatic fan is going to change the channel.
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There aren't skaters (that I have seen) or their fans, that have ellicited in me anger such as I find in this thread's opening post. I have enjoyed this sport for over half a century and never once been angry about the opinions of any skater's fans, whether or not I championed them or not.
While certainly acknowledging the originators points of view, the level of shouting, and tone of defense seems way over the top. The points made are severely diminished by the manner in which they were delivered.
Personally, I love and respect the dedication, hard work, and committment every skater puts forth in an effort to suceed, and I cheer for each of them to do just that. We all have our favorites and that is natural. We all have our opinions but sharing them in a manner that is respectful to others in this or any forum brings more understanding and acknowledgement than does beratement!
While certainly acknowledging the originators points of view, the level of shouting, and tone of defense seems way over the top. The points made are severely diminished by the manner in which they were delivered.
Personally, I love and respect the dedication, hard work, and committment every skater puts forth in an effort to suceed, and I cheer for each of them to do just that. We all have our favorites and that is natural. We all have our opinions but sharing them in a manner that is respectful to others in this or any forum brings more understanding and acknowledgement than does beratement!
Who is Caroline Chang? Sorry can;t resist.
Back to Zhang, IMO all the hype is not good for her. She will need to learn how to handle the hype and the attention etc. I don't mind Zhang (and YuNa) receiving the hype that may leave less pressure on Asada and Nagasu.
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I agree with the point kikakiks made, but IMO no need to shout to make that point at all.
Sometimes people get offended by the style not by the contents.
Such to and fro of emotions is unnecessary, I suppose.
Kikakiks, I find your point a necessary one to make.
Everything can be meaningless but meaningful at the same time, no?
Sometimes people get offended by the style not by the contents.
Such to and fro of emotions is unnecessary, I suppose.
Kikakiks, I find your point a necessary one to make.
Everything can be meaningless but meaningful at the same time, no?
I shamelessly admit that I'm a big fan of CZ, but I see and voice her shortcomings, and conversely I see and voice praise of the positive qualities of other skaters. I quite like Vahamaa, but if she competed at CoC I didn't see her name and thus didn't miss her in the CoC threads. 
Which skater you "like" is purely subjective. Whether someone is a "good" skater, or the "best out there" can be measured objectively -- the scores speak for themselves. Only I do feel the pain of rooting for an inconsistent competitor (oh, Johnny!), as well as the joy and relief of supporting a consistent one (go OO!).
Everyone complains about low PCS of their favorite skater at some time or other, particular when that skater is a newbie on the senior scene and more likely to be held down. I don't think CZ receives especially vociferous or disproportionate amount of cry of foul than other rising skaters, RELATIVE to the size of her fan base.
But I REALLY don't understand the point of starting a special, content-free thread devoted to a skater when you feel like that skater is already receiving too much attention in another area of the forum!
Which skater you "like" is purely subjective. Whether someone is a "good" skater, or the "best out there" can be measured objectively -- the scores speak for themselves. Only I do feel the pain of rooting for an inconsistent competitor (oh, Johnny!), as well as the joy and relief of supporting a consistent one (go OO!).
Everyone complains about low PCS of their favorite skater at some time or other, particular when that skater is a newbie on the senior scene and more likely to be held down. I don't think CZ receives especially vociferous or disproportionate amount of cry of foul than other rising skaters, RELATIVE to the size of her fan base.
But I REALLY don't understand the point of starting a special, content-free thread devoted to a skater when you feel like that skater is already receiving too much attention in another area of the forum!
Fair, I totally agree with you. While, I think Caroline is overhyped and probably agree some with the poster. I don't understand starting a thread about it. I think there are aspects of Caroline's skating that is wonderful, and aspects that she needs to work on.
Honestly, Caroline reminds me a lot of a young Sasha Cohen.
(Although hopefully more consistent) Wherea's let say Mao and Yu-na Kim remind me more of let's say young Kristi/Michelle's/Arakawa's. to each their own...
Although Mirai Nagasu really reminds me of a young Arakawa...
Honestly, Caroline reminds me a lot of a young Sasha Cohen.
(Although hopefully more consistent) Wherea's let say Mao and Yu-na Kim remind me more of let's say young Kristi/Michelle's/Arakawa's. to each their own...
Although Mirai Nagasu really reminds me of a young Arakawa...
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- May 17, 2007
Let me just say that I love Caroline's skating, flaws and all. It's appealing to me, and there are several qualities that I especially enjoy: her spirals, spins, and presentation. However, let me also say that I recognize her shortcomings: speed, ice coverage, jump entrances. The fact is, regardless of this, I still like Zhang, and I sincerely hope she wins the competitions she enters. This isn't because I necessarily think that she is a better skater; it is simply because I'm her fan. So what if it doesn't make sense given the quality of skating of the others skaters? I don't care. Like mathman said, fans have the right to enjoy a skater purely for enjoyment's sake. I know there are super-uber Caroline fans out there who use some pretty radical arguments, but there also a lot of people who are undermining her potential, saying that she definately WONT live up to the hype...nothing is certain. People are already labeling Yu-Na world champion just because of the new (adjustments) rules in place...shouldn't that be criticized as much as calling Caroline the next Kween?
just my two cents,
Carolinefan177
just my two cents,
Carolinefan177
I totally agree. But considering right now the absolutely nasty youtube war going on between Mao and Yu-na fans. I'm more worried about what these extreme fans are doing to them.....At least Caroline isn't being put in the middle of ancient rivalries.
Uh, Carolinefan, Nobody's said Yu-na is the new world champion. Some are saying myself included she's got a heads up because of the new rules. But even I'm not sure, who knows what Mao will be doing in the next couple of months?
Both Mao and Yu-na are currently at the top of the ISU world rankings. It's not hyping either girl to assume that the other could win worlds, since they are quite clearly top 3 in the world right now. with Miki.
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It IS interesting to speculate what would have happened if the new UR and edge rules had been in effect when Mao had her first season in the GP.
At Cup of China 2005, Mao beat Shizuka Arakawa by just 3 points. With the edge and UR rules, believe Shizuka would have won the silver medal there. And at TEB, where Sasha edged Shizuka for silver by less than 2 points, Sasha would have been dinged heavily for her flutz, giving the silver to Shizuka.
Mao would have gone to the final, and Shizuka would have gone too, instead of Miki. I believe Irina would have beaten Mao in the Final because of the many dings Mao would have received for UR and wrong edge, and Shizuka would have won the bronze medal instead of Yukari.
In any case, it's a whole new ballgame now, and both Mao and Caroline are going to have to address their jump and edge issues.
I don't believe Caroline's PCS scores are too low, and it's partly because of the flaws in her skating. OTOH, Mao's may be a bit too high, considering that she does have a really bad flutz, she underrotates the second jump in her combos, and she only does four types of jumps. Yu-Na's are where they should be.
Of the three (Caroline, Mao and Yu-Na), Yu-Na's jumps have the best technique, and Caroline has the best spins and flexibility. Mao and Yu-Na both have great flow over the ice, but Caroline is still too small to match them. I'm not sold on either Mao's or Yu-Na's musicality just yet; I think both need work in that area and Caroline is still a work in progress there as well. Caroline is somewhat more consistent than the others. Mao sometimes has problems, especially in the SP, while Yu-Na has excellent SPs, but sometimes has minor meltdowns in the FS.
If you took Yu-Na's jump technique, Caroline's spins, Mao's axels and Kimmie's competition nerves and wrapped them all together in one skater, you would have a legend in the making.
At Cup of China 2005, Mao beat Shizuka Arakawa by just 3 points. With the edge and UR rules, believe Shizuka would have won the silver medal there. And at TEB, where Sasha edged Shizuka for silver by less than 2 points, Sasha would have been dinged heavily for her flutz, giving the silver to Shizuka.
Mao would have gone to the final, and Shizuka would have gone too, instead of Miki. I believe Irina would have beaten Mao in the Final because of the many dings Mao would have received for UR and wrong edge, and Shizuka would have won the bronze medal instead of Yukari.
In any case, it's a whole new ballgame now, and both Mao and Caroline are going to have to address their jump and edge issues.
I don't believe Caroline's PCS scores are too low, and it's partly because of the flaws in her skating. OTOH, Mao's may be a bit too high, considering that she does have a really bad flutz, she underrotates the second jump in her combos, and she only does four types of jumps. Yu-Na's are where they should be.
Of the three (Caroline, Mao and Yu-Na), Yu-Na's jumps have the best technique, and Caroline has the best spins and flexibility. Mao and Yu-Na both have great flow over the ice, but Caroline is still too small to match them. I'm not sold on either Mao's or Yu-Na's musicality just yet; I think both need work in that area and Caroline is still a work in progress there as well. Caroline is somewhat more consistent than the others. Mao sometimes has problems, especially in the SP, while Yu-Na has excellent SPs, but sometimes has minor meltdowns in the FS.
If you took Yu-Na's jump technique, Caroline's spins, Mao's axels and Kimmie's competition nerves and wrapped them all together in one skater, you would have a legend in the making.
What would you have Michelle contribute to this idealized lady skater? The original COE spiral? I'm quite enjoying this discussion despite the aggressive beginning. By all means, do keep this thread alive and well with all your comments. I can sit here all day long and debate the merits and demerits of Caroline's skating, and comparison to others. :chorus::chorus::chorus:
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I agree with the point kikakiks made, but IMO no need to shout to make that point at all.
Sometimes people get offended by the style not by the contents.
Such to and fro of emotions is unnecessary, I suppose.
Kikakiks, I find your point a necessary one to make.
Everything can be meaningless but meaningful at the same time, no?
As I said, i wasn't meaning to offend, it was just really bugging me, so I guess the passionate way of writing went over board. However I still think I wasn't disrespectful to anyone!
I apologize though if the capital letters came through as shouting, i was actually intending to underline my words. I guess I am not knowledgeable enough of the writing styles in a forum or in different countries...please try again and read the points I made for what is written and not the style...you will see that i haven't offended anyone with my "opinions"
