2021 ISU Congress: proposals received

[kwanatic]

I agree with raising the age limit in seniors to 17 though I doubt if it will ever pass. Most skaters hit that puberty growth spurt between 15-17 years old. I think raising the age to 17 helps to level the field on both sides. It lessens the physical advantages someone who is smaller and lighter has over someone who is bigger and heavier, but it also allows that younger skater more time to develop their skill and style and gain experience. Again, I doubt if it will pass but I'd welcome it...

I don't agree with keep judges anonymous until after the competition. Why protect the judges from the stank eye stares from the skaters and coaches after the marks? Keep that same energy--if you put down that mark, stand by it...

Yes, dump the antiquated term "ladies" and just say women. This is waaaaay overdue...

PLEASE split the panel of judges. I've said for a long time there should be a separate technical and components panel...

 

[LutzDance]

Maybe they should change it to the xx chromosome group and the xy chromosome group.

I know it’s just a joke, but to be scientifically sound, there are XXY male (Klinefelter syndrome), XX male, XYY male, X female (Turner syndrome), XXX female, and XY female etc... We don’t see these people a lot in sports because these sex chromosome disorders usually affect development. I do wonder if they are qualified to participate in paralympics and what their groupings look like.

I have another argument against using “gentlemen/ladies”: I find juvenile/novice/junior gentlemen really weird-sounding

 

[el henry]

For me, the ISU is attempting to mirror other Olympics women’s sports by changing “ladies” to “women”.

Women’s hockey, women's track and field, women's soccer, women's judo, well you get the idea.

The IOC doesn't use alternate spellings, so neither will the ISU. And with apologies to all the Henry's who are my cousins twelve times removed in Country Antrim, whoever they are

 

[Amei]

I know it’s just a joke, but to be scientifically sound, there are XXY male (Klinefelter syndrome), XX male, XYY male, X female (Turner syndrome), XXX female, and XY female etc... We don’t see these people a lot in sports because these sex chromosome disorders usually affect development. I do wonder if they are qualified to participate in paralympics and what their groupings look like.

I have another argument against using “gentlemen/ladies”: I find juvenile/novice/junior gentlemen really weird-sounding

It was sarcastic remark about calling the disciplines by the chromosomes, but joking aside the whole changing the "ladies" discipline from being called that because its offensive or outdated to someone someone...so what do you call that discipline because someone else is going to find something wrong with whatever it gets changed to

 

[Pale]

Raising the age limit will make their career shorter. Ain't it that obvious.
The taller and bigger skaters at least have a chance now pre-puberty . Cause otherwise you'll see only the smaller/shorter ones dominating the field.
Kinda interesting that Hungary proposed junior Euros and 4CC. Do they want to host it or what.
Splitting the judges won't fix anything either. It'll only increase expenses on additional judges. Good luck with that.
And what's up with that anonymous judging again. I thought the whole idea was to make judging more transparent when they removed it.

No proposals for introducing quads to Ladies SP and 3A for junior Ladies SP ? But we have a very urgent proposal of changing a freaking name from Ladies to Women. Seems legit.

 

[LutzDance]

It was sarcastic remark about calling the disciplines by the chromosomes, but joking aside the whole changing the "ladies" discipline from being called that because its offensive or outdated to someone someone...so what do you call that discipline because someone else is going to find something wrong with whatever it gets changed to

Yeah I know, I was just sort of going off of your remark to point out the scientific definition of the sexes might not be as straight-forward as people think, let alone adding the social and cultural implications. If one goes to the ISU document, they cited the reason for changed terminology as

...in accord with the recommendation of the IOC Gender Equality Review Project that there be a fair and balanced portrayal (i.e. how women and men are presented and described)...

which sounds to me like an effort to keep up with the standard proposed by the Olympics committee and accepted by other sports (as @el henry also pointed out above). "Women" is likely the best compromise they can find in terms of avoiding offenses.

Also, from the same paragraph it goes

It should be noted that in the Qualification System for the 2022 Olympic Winter Games, the terms ‘Women’ and ‘Women’s’ are used to identify the events in which female athletes compete (e.g. ‘Women’s Events’ / ‘Women Single Skating’).

So it's already happening, albeit not at full scale yet.

No proposals for introducing quads to Ladies SP and 3A for junior Ladies SP ?

Or allowing quad-quad combo. Why don't they want the sport to be more spicy

 

[macy]

Raising the age limit will make their career shorter. Ain't it that obvious.

i think that would be true for a while, but you'd probably end up seeing the number of quads and 3As being thrown go way down (as the likelihood of landing them at an older age is less) and skaters pacing themselves for competing as a senior at a later age, which i'm sure is what they're after. you wouldn't see as many 10-12 year olds learning those jumps as we do now. clearly they aren't in any rush to let them do quads in the short, and i think the end result would naturally be a reduced technical threshold. the dynamics of being raised and trained in the sport would change entirely.

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

Thank you for enlightening me on the usage of gender terms in NI. Gotta admit I was absolutely ignorant on this matter However, I do find it an even sadder reason to not use "women" (or "men") because of its derogatory implication derived from ageism...Being old shouldn't be a point of insult

You are right - it is sad. Getting older is something that happens to everybody. OK, so the process might be longer for some than for others, but it is part of being a living being. So, it is not fair that being further on in the process results in you being mocked, or it being held against you.

Unfortunately, this sport is one of those places where your age is held against you. Especially if you are a Ladies Singles skater. How many top quality skaterss have found that they are surplus to requirements by the time they are 22? Or even as young as 19? And in many cases, they are actually just as good as the younger skaters that are taking their places. Or, in some cases, better. But, people just see their age and decide that they're past it, whether they are or not.

That is actually one of the resons why I would like to see the age ranges tweaked. Because it must be so demoralising to be considered past it in your early 20's, or late teens.

Just to be clear, I'm not trying to fault the usage of these words in your culture. I actually find it fascinating how the same terms evolved to have different connotations among different speaker populations. I'm just sharing my outsider's reaction to hearing about this for the first time & why I still prefer using "women" and "men" to designate the disciplines. And no matter how they are called, I'm still excited to watch skates by un-gentle men and un-ladylike women

Hey, you can fault all you like. I don't like the way things are. We have enough serious problems here without being offended by minor things like this.

Dare I mention how contentious the name of the 8th letter of the alphabet is...?

But, you are right. It is fascinating how the same language can have different meanings and different implications depending on where it is being used. I love finding out about that sort of thing!

Might regret getting involved in this similar to the ISU might eventually regret, the current environment someone will always be offended by something as several people have pointed to ladies, women, womxn, girl, boy, etc bothers somebody somewhere. Maybe they should change it to the xx chromosome group and the xy chromosome group. Would that safely avoid upsetting most people? I'm sure they release it someone will get offended by it.

That's actually very funny. Thank you for adding it to the conversation, Amei.

As you have pointed out, every possible option would offend somebody somewhere. So, in that type of situation, it is probably better to not change anything.

Better the devil you know than the one you don't.

CaroLiza_fan

 

[Pale]

i think that would be true for a while, but you'd probably end up seeing the number of quads and 3As being thrown go way down (as the likelihood of landing them at an older age is less) and skaters pacing themselves for competing as a senior at a later age, which i'm sure is what they're after. you wouldn't see as many 10-12 year olds learning those jumps as we do now. clearly they aren't in any rush to let them do quads in the short, and i think the end result would naturally be a reduced technical threshold. the dynamics of being raised and trained in the sport would change entirely.

Those who decide to postpone learning quads at a younger age will be on the losing side. I'm sure Tutberidze won't change her strategy. And If anything, others (let's say Japanese) will try to catch up with the Russians and Eteri in particular.
The only change i expect is in the selection process. The smaller/shorter athletes will be prioritized. I think i can see that in Eteri's group already.

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

We do not already have a Junior version of Euros.
European Youth Olympic Festival figure skating competition falls short of the supposed equivalency for multiple reasons.
(Junior Worlds are quite different from Youth Olympic Games figure skating, and similarly, Junior Euros presumably would be quite different from EYOF figure skating.)

Thank you for your reply. You may not have succeeded in changing my mind about the EYOF, but it was very informative and I learnt a lot.

- EYOF figure skating competition is only for singles.

No ice dance, no pairs.​

Mmmm. I just assumed that was down to lack of entries in the partnership categories (something that unfortunately happens too often during the season). I didn't realise it was actually by design.

And each country is allowed a maximum of only one entry in "boys"/men and only one entry in "girls"/ladies.

And, again, I didn't realise that this was also a requirement. I did think it strange that Russia only ever entered one Ladies skater, when there are always loads that are eligible. But I assumed that was due to the EYOF normally being held at a very busy part of the season. When the eligible skaters are concentrating on preparing for Junior Worlds, or even competing at (Senior) Europeans.

- The age requirements for EYOF (and YOG) are way more restrictive than ISU age rules for juniors.

For 2019 EYOF (in Feb), "Athletes must be born between 01/07/2002 –30/06/2004."​

Wow. Only 2 years?! That is VERY tight.

I suppose this is the organisers' way of ensuring that more people get the opportunity to compete at it, by making sure that there are no returning competitors. But, it still seems tough.

Thank you for providing the file that explains all this.

- EYOF is only a biannual event (as CL_fan mentioned).

Whereas for Junior Euros and Junior Four Continents:
"Hungary truly recommends to organize the above-mentioned events annually. In case financial difficulties may occur the biannual organization seems also feasible."​

You know, given what you have said, I wouldn't be against the EYOF becoming an annual event. There aren't many multi-sport events in Wintersports, and the ones that we do have are mostly held on 4-year cycles. So, with only the EYOF and the Universiade to fill in the gaps, and them both having additional entry requirements, there are a lot of athletes that fall through the gaps and then arrive at the Olympics without any experience of competing at a multi-sport event. It must be overwhelming.

And come to think of it, there aren't many events on the figure skating calendar that concentrate on the Juniors. In terms of Major Championships, Junior Worlds is the only Major held every year for Juniors. The Seniors have at least 3 Majors every year. So, the more Junior competitions the merrier!

On the other hand, it is getting increasingly difficult to get cities to bid for multi-sport events, because they are inevitably expensive to hold. So, trying to hold the EYOF annually might backfire.

- EYOF athletes must jump through citizenship-related hoops.

"Any competitor in the EYOF must be a national or citizen of the country or territory of the NOC which is entering him/her or have the right of being a national or citizen of such country when the competitor reaches the legal majority of age. In any case, the NOC must, on the request of the Organising Committee or the EOC, duly prove the nationality, citizenship or right to obtain one or other by the competitor. A NOC which wishes to enter an athlete who does not meet these criteria, must submit a written and detailed request to the EOC EYOF Commission not later than four months before the date of the Opening Ceremony."​

Another thing I didn't realise.

That's not fair. But, you already know that I don't agree with the additional citizenship requirements that the IOC have. Or, the whole concept of "representing your country".

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Anyway, as ever, thank you for enlightening me to all these things. (I really should pay more attention to the formalities, rather than just concentrating on enjoying the skating...)

CaroLiza_fan