Janet Lynn: A Measured Fall from Freedom

[Lzbee]

Also, contrary to the impression that my first comment may have given, I'm not against having a stronger emphasis on skating fundamentals or a push for more artistry.

I apologise if I upset anyone with my comment but I'll admit, I was angered by Janet's article at the time at because it felt like she was very dismissive of all the feats that skaters were achieving: she disparaged difficult spins, difficult jumps and even difficult step sequences. I didn't realise the article was written in 2011 until someone pointed it out and that means that Janet's criticism was not due to the recent quadsters but spurred by the likes of Yuna, Mao and Carolina. Which makes even less sense to me but I apologise for being mistaken anyhow.

There was a point made about safety for young skaters and I do find it interesting that the outcry surrounding it is to ban difficult elements rather than find ways of making these elements safer. Part of it is because figure skating is an aesthetic sport - people don't want to see skaters with helmets and knee pads during programs but perhaps bum pads can be normalised in competition (unless they already are and I just don't know? At least, it doesn't look like women normally wear them).

There's also been a lot of discussion on the sport's popularity. I think we do need to be mindful of being too USA/west focused with regards to that because figure skating is booming in Russia, has always had good standing in Japan and has had a boost in South Korea since Yuna. I don't think fs can go back to its previous popularity because the days of only having 4 TV channels are over but it's not so terrible to be a popular niche sport.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

Those are “merely” 3 As though. Well, Amber and Mirai. And Mirai quit after landing it at the Olympics and Amber’s isn’t consistent yet (or wasn’t as of last Nationals). In my opinion there is just far too much emphasis on a few jumps and these women are burning out sometimes by 16. The men have a lot more time and space to develop their own styles. It’s not fair to the women.

I’ve seen some even say that women should train jumps exclusively and not bother with things like spins and step sequences that are so few points in comparison to 3As and quads. As much as I would hate that for myself as a fan, in terms of competitions that may well be a winning strategy.

You completely missed my points. Amber's attempting 4's in practice IIRC and Mirai only quit because her hip was injured and she had to have extensive surgery and recovery. You're not telling me anything I don't already know regarding women, been there done that. And I wouldn't say the men have the advantage and time and space to "develop their own styles" because they don't. The men are expected to bring the quads and the other big elements and have them sooner. There is actually more variety in women's skating than mens.
Also, the statement about Nathan was off the mark and unnecessary.

 

[moonvine]

But can they do that on ice with thin blades strapped to their feet?

If I may be so honest but from your description, elite gymnastics scoring system really doesn't sound that different from IJS. IJS also has a difficulty score for each element and then the execution is evaluated. The biggest differences that I can see are the facts that you can invent moves and the execution is deducted from a maximum rather than added to a base value. And honestly, I think figure skating should incorporate these ideas.

Please do be honest! Well, other differences are that there are different panels of judges. The “people who hold the flags up” that I mentioned when a gymnast goes out of bounds are actually called “line judges.” That’s all they do - call whether a gymnast is in or out. So there’s no guesswork. Another is the conferences. Something I forgot to mention is that gymnasts can file..I think it’s called an inquiry if they disagree with the score.

The main thing that appeals to me is that there are many ways to construct a routine that can win even an OGM. If you’re better at spins, you incorporate more spins. If you’re better at flips, you incorporate more flips. If you’re better at jumps, you incorporate more jumps.

And no, track athletes don’t jump on ice with blades on their feet. But it’s still jumping.

 

[moonvine]

You completely missed my points. Amber's attempting 4's in practice IIRC and Mirai only quit because her hip was injured and she had to have extensive surgery and recovery. You're not telling me anything I don't already know regarding women, been there done that. And I wouldn't say the men have the advantage and time and space to "develop their own styles" because they don't. The men are expected to bring the quads and the other big elements and have them sooner. There is actually more variety in women's skating than mens.
Also, the statement about Nathan was off the mark and unnecessary.

My apologies. As a fan I see more variety in men’s skating. But I am no expert, just a fan. Glad to hear Amber is attempting quads in practice. I hope her hard work pays off for her.

 

[Lzbee]

I think the biggest difference between skating and sports like gymnastics or acrobatics is that what happens in between the tricks is a lot more important: the actual skating in the skating competition.

This is a very good point!

One thing that I'm apprehensive about when people talk about increasing the value of blades work is that it's difficult to understand (for me at least) and currently there aren't that many easily accessible resources out there to explain the different aspects of it. For example, I have no idea how to evaluate when a step sequence would be downgraded unless it's obviously empty but I can tell a flutz from a Lutz because there have been many people analysing it. Perhaps skating skills need to be valued higher before people will analyse it in detail though, I don't know.

If there were to be three panels, would it make most sense to keep the tech panel as is for calling purposes, to include a technical judging panel that evaluates GOEs and Skating Skills and maybe Transitions, and an "artistic" judging panel to evaluate Performance, Composition, and Interpretation components?

I love this idea! Hopefully, if each judge has less responsibility then they can be more meticulous in their scoring.

 

[gimnas]

While the little Russian ladies are throwing these jumps right and left at a tender age, how long do you think they'll be in the sport?

Long enough to wins Worlds and the Olympics but probably not much longer.

 

[el henry]

This is a very good point!

One thing that I'm apprehensive about when people talk about increasing the value of blades work is that it's difficult to understand (for me at least) and currently there aren't that many easily accessible resources out there to explain the different aspects of it. For example, I have no idea how to evaluate when a step sequence would be downgraded unless it's obviously empty but I can tell a flutz from a Lutz because there have been many people analysing it. Perhaps skating skills need to be valued higher before people will analyse it in detail though, I don't know.


I love this idea! Hopefully, if each judge has less responsibility then they can be more meticulous in their scoring.

I agree knowledge may be part of the issue.

I *think* I can tell good skating skills, deep edges, step sequences. At least I tell myself I can

I can't tell a Lutz from a flutz from a q from a UR. I mean really obvious ones, yes, but otherwise, I even have trouble telling the toe jumps apart. And the thing is, I don't really care enough to educate myself. (As we said in the old pre-emoji days, <G,D &R>)

But skating has always had the subjective component and always will. Increasing the value of elements that can be "measured" while chanting faster, higher, stronger (I'm not saying you did that, I'm digressing ) doesn't make it any more of a sport

Which is why we have these conversations

 

[ladyjane]

My two cents - but probably not bringing the discussion much further (sorry). I recall being absolutely blown away when watching the Canadian men at the (virtual) Challenge by their Skating skills, the deep edges and the wonderful interpretation of the music by most of them. Not all of them had quads, and some of them didn't even show a triple Axel, but so many of them were worthwhile to watch because of these other things. There still was a lot of technical prowess (I do a bit of Figure Skating myself and these skills and edges really are very difficult to master), and I really don't know whether the guys had learned Figures to get there. I also don't know if such skills and technique can actually be measured objectively. It's part of the sport and should be valued by the judges, whatever the system.

 

[katymay]

My two cents - but probably not bringing the discussion much further (sorry). I recall being absolutely blown away when watching the Canadian men at the (virtual) Challenge by their Skating skills, the deep edges and the wonderful interpretation of the music by most of them. Not all of them had quads, and some of them didn't even show a triple Axel, but so many of them were worthwhile to watch because of these other things. There still was a lot of technical prowess (I do a bit of Figure Skating myself and these skills and edges really are very difficult to master), and I really don't know whether the guys had learned Figures to get there. I also don't know if such skills and technique can actually be measured objectively. It's part of the sport and should be valued by the judges, whatever the system.

I actually would love to see figures return-as a separate discipline The great thing would be older skaters would be able to compete. Even 50 and 60 year olds would be able to compete, and wouldn't that be cool!

 

[NaVi]

There needs to be two seasons in a year. One as done currently and one done kind of like the ice age or battle of the blades shows.

 

[el henry]

There needs to be two seasons in a year. One as done currently and one done kind of like the ice age or battle of the blades shows.

I'm sorry, I don't want to see battles of the blades or ice age (although I shouldn't say that, because I don't know what ice age is)

I want to see competitions. Where blade to ice skills, performance skills, step sequences, spins, and all those other wonderful athletic skills are valued as much and seen as important as revolutions in the air (hence, figure skating).

 

[NaVi]

I'm sorry, I don't want to see battles of the blades or ice age (although I shouldn't say that, because I don't know what ice age is)

I want to see competitions. Where blade to ice skills, performance skills, step sequences, spins, and all those other wonderful athletic skills are valued as much and seen as important as revolutions in the air (hence, figure skating).

I honestly think this is impossible. There is no real way to balance between them so there needs to be two different systems. One intentionally focused on athleticism and one on artistry.

OK, I guess there is a way... just go back to an ordinal system. But there is no way to do it under CoP because the issue is the measuring itself and not how things are measured or judged.

 

[NaVi]

Goodhart's law: "When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure."

Here's a comment I bookmarked on hacker news a long time ago surprised that it was the top voted comment in the thread:

One of the best examples of Goodhart's Law I think is what has happened over the past 20 years in sports like gymnastics and figure skating.
The International Skating Union changed the figure skating scoring system after the 2002 Olympics scandal. The goal was to make the system more transparent and objective. Instead of a couple of 6.0 values, each element in a program would get a score based on difficulty and quality of execution.

The end result is that things that are essentially easily measured (like the number of revolutions in a jump) went up in value, while many feel like the overall quality and artistry of skating has suffered greatly.

Goodhart's Law and how systems are shaped by the metrics you chase | Hacker News

news.ycombinator.com

Somewhat related:

Changing Rules, Changing Practices: The Direct and Indirect Effects of Tight Coupling in Figure Skating https://pubsonline.informs.org/doi/abs/10.1287/orsc.2015.1018

Been a long, long time since I read that study but I think it touches up on how the changing judging system changes how programs are approached.

 

[el henry]

Goodhart's law: "When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure."

Here's a comment I bookmarked on hacker news a long time ago surprised that it was the top voted comment in the thread:

Goodhart's Law and how systems are shaped by the metrics you chase | Hacker News

news.ycombinator.com

Somewhat related:

Changing Rules, Changing Practices: The Direct and Indirect Effects of Tight Coupling in Figure Skating https://pubsonline.informs.org/doi/abs/10.1287/orsc.2015.1018

Been a long, long time since I read that study but I think it touches up on how the changing judging system changes how programs are approached.

That was a very interesting read. I agree with the poster that "Goodhart's Law" in this case should *not* take effect, and that simply because aspects of the sport are "measurable", does not mean those aspects are the most important. And indeed, from what I have read that Goodhart's Law (which, like all these "laws", are best understood as theories):

"When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure".

Unintended Consequences and Goodhart’s Law

The importance of using the right metrics

towardsdatascience.com

I certainly agree with that.

Jason Brown gave an interview that was published on Gazeta.ru today. I looove this paragraph (and not just because I am a Jason fangirl)

It makes no sense, in my opinion, to evaluate a skater on only one aspect of this sport and to look at him only through the prism of quadruple jumps. Figure skating is rich in a huge number of elements. Most of them are jumps, but we have so many other opportunities to earn points

.....But I still think figure skating is much more than just jumping. And I want no young skater to grow up with the fear that if he does not learn a certain jump, he will not be worthy of success in figure skating, and that there will simply be no place for him in this sport. Such thoughts are lies.

All children who work incredibly hard deserve a chance to succeed. And they have to develop in all sorts of ways, even if they fail with some kind of jump.

There are kids who love to slide, they love to interpret music and show an image like me. And I want to prove by my example that if you work hard and improve your strengths, you can achieve success in figure skating.



(since obviously he originally spoke in English, it was then translated into Russian, and this is the English translation from Russian translation, this is a "third hand" translation. Jason's English is not as stilted.

)

https://www.gazeta.ru/sport/2021/07/14/a_13735634.shtml. (auto translate)

 

[flanker]

So, what are the other ways of how to success (defeat Chen, for instance) without "certain jumps"?

 

[Lzbee]

I was reading through the original thread when this article was first posted and it's interesting how things have changed and not changed. It's here if anyone also wanted to read it: https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/threads/article-by-janet-lynn.35415/

One thing that I think has been eliminated by the quad revolution is the insurmountable SP lead. At least with regards to women's, a 5 to 10 point lead now can be obliterated by a clean ultra-c FP.

 

[noskates]

You know - figure skating or any sport is always going to have those "greatest of all times!" Tennis had it with people like Roger Federer and Nadal and there was a time when no one thought they could be bested. Golf with Tiger Woods. etc. etc. etc. That time has passed. The same is going to happen to Nathan but it may not just be with jumps. Maybe someone will come along with the same jumps and present them better or maybe their artistry will be better. But it will happen eventually. (who ever thought anyone could beat Hanyu) But I don't necessarily think it's going to be solely with the jumps and more revolutions. There is only so much a body can do. Will there be a quad axel in competition? Probably, but how many times will it be landed and what kind of an impact will that have on the rest of the program? What kind of energy has to be expended before, during and after that one jump that will make everything after it mediocre. And how many injuries will result from skaters attempting that jump that don't have the right body type for the rotation or just don't have the physical ability. Just some thoughts.

 

[el henry]

So, what are the other ways of how to success (defeat Chen, for instance) without "certain jumps"?

Success is defined many different ways. "Defeat Chen" is certainly one.

For me, a sad world it would be (yes, even in sports, even chanting "faster higher stronger") if that were the only definition. Being Jason, and bringing what Jason does to the ice, and placing ahead even of multiple quadsters, is yet another definition.

And thankfully, to me, Jason has articulated it well.

 

[eppen]

Changing Rules, Changing Practices: The Direct and Indirect Effects of Tight Coupling in Figure Skating https://pubsonline.informs.org/doi/abs/10.1287/orsc.2015.1018

Been a long, long time since I read that study but I think it touches up on how the changing judging system changes how programs are approached.

Thanks for this reminder! That was a good re-read, although the analysis of the changes in the programs was perhaps a little shallow. The time used for each element has ofc changed when it comes to spins and steps, but she should maybe have looked at the time used to prep jumps. And then part of the extra time back in the day was used to simply have a break between the first and second parts of the program. Particularly men could spend even 10-20 seconds doing almost nothing, not even moving on the ice taking a breather - that covers most of the extra time in the old programs.

I also started to think about FS history and how things have changed in general. Janet Lynn and the 1970s legends represented the first generation of skaters who could use more or less their whole bodies in performing. Before mid-60s, the free skate was about what happened below the waist, the upper body and arms were used basically to balance and help rotation in jumps and spins, but they were not active parts of the performance. This started to change in the early 60s for the ladies and a bit later for men. In a way, the stiff arms and upper body represent figure skating's own movement vocabulary and what happened afterwards made it look more like dance on ice that what had been figure skating before. I can't remember seeing much complaints about the changes at that time (well, except perhaps Dick Button complaining about arm movements still in the 1980s).

I was also thinking of how well did the stationary compulsory figures translate into movement over ice and blade use there? Trixie Schuba was a one of the greats of the figures but she was slow and did not look particularly impressive with her skating skills in her free programs. Last year I watched the top 5 in every worlds from 1980 to 2018, but I have to say the number of great looking skating skills was not very high pre ablition of figures in 1990 (would say surprisingly low in general).

That watching project was also a great reminder that for every Kwan or Browning performance there are a huge number of mostly completely forgettable, boring and cookie cutter programs in every decade.

E

 

[Sharon Whitlock]

The more judges (panels), the more expensive the sport will become.

One of the problems with CoP is that many of the rinks can no longer afford to offer a local (non-qualifying) competition other than Basic Skills competitions.

The setup for an IJS competition is expensive and so are the judges.

I live in Northern Illinois near Chicago, and there are many rinks in the many suburbs and also in the small towns and cities within a 100 miles of Chicago. When my kids were growing up in the 1990s/early 2000s, many of these rinks, including the one in my small city, offered a USFSA competition for all ages. Our competition ran for 5 days (and evenings) and attracted several hundred skaters, including the Senior-level skaters from the Chicagoland area who were National competitors (e.g., Evan Lysasek). I'm guessing that at some point, Jason Brown probably entered our competition when he was a little boy!

But now--there aren't that many competitions anymore in the Chicago area, and our small city stopped offered a competition years ago and offers two Basic Skills competitions instead. We just can't afford it.

What this means is that our higher-level skaters (qualifying levels beginning with Juvenile) do not have the opportunity to do as many competitions as they used to back during the 6.0 days. And I think this hurts the sport--competition experience is necessary for skaters who have the talent to become elite skaters. It helps the skater learn how to deal with nerves and it gives them an opportunity to get noticed by judges and other coaches. And it's FUN! It's a sport, and sport means competition!

I have no solution for this problem, other than to offer an opinion that we really can't be adding still MORE expense to the sport by adding changes that would require more judges at competitions.