Has there ever been a winner that didn't have some level of this though? Just off the top of my head from figure skating: Zagitova got it from Medvedeva uber fans (Didn't they show up at Sambo or something and present Medvedeva with her 'gold medal'), Sotnikova got it from Yuna uber fans, Chen from Hanyu ubers
Rhythmic Gymnastics Tokyo 2020 Individual AA Final: Were Averina sisters robbed or nah?
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Has there ever been a winner that didn't have some level of this though? Just off the top of my head from figure skating: Zagitova got it from Medvedeva uber fans (Didn't they show up at Sambo or something and present Medvedeva with her 'gold medal'), Sotnikova got it from Yuna uber fans, Chen from Hanyu ubers
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It's interesting to hear your thoughts about glaring difference between Averina's and Linoy's qualification scores and final scores then. I want to remind that Dina Averina performed noticeably better in the final routines than in qualification - but were given much lower scores. Whereas Linoy had visible mistakes with apparatus both in qualification and final - but her scores were unusually higher in final competition. Especially strange is raising of difficulty of her elements during span of one night. To make an analogy with fs - it's like a skater would learn quads afer short program and started jumping them during free.
Even for people who knows nothing about RG scoring system - that difference in scoring between the same routines (from the same judging panel) should look very suspicious.
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The easy ansswer is "some people are just horrible individuals."
The more nuanced answer is that some people have lives so empty that they attach themselves to public figures to achieve some focus and meaning to their existence. Their personal success is tied to the success of their hero. If the hero fails, then they fail. It's sad to think about.
A balanced fan enjoys sports, but takes the wins and losses of their favorites in stride. You may be sad your team lost the championship, but it doesn't keep you up at night for weeks. It doesn't effect your eating, your personal relationships, your job performance. That's not the case for everyone.
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I think it's a bit pointless to discuss whether Ashram won fairly or not when basically no one tried to prove it by explaining RG scoring system (which I don't understand either). The only thing I heard is that Linoy got lucky to drop ribbon without taking any steps and not during body element. That said, I seriously doubt Israelis bribed judges or something, it's not a particularly sports oriented country and they probably have other things to worry about.
Also, it could be a problem with the system: difficulty is sometimes worth twice as much as execution as it's not limited and can partly cover up some mistakes. The same issue could be seen in figure skating: skaters fail certain elements but due to high difficulty, these failures are compensated, to the surprise of casual viewers.
Also, it could be a problem with the system: difficulty is sometimes worth twice as much as execution as it's not limited and can partly cover up some mistakes. The same issue could be seen in figure skating: skaters fail certain elements but due to high difficulty, these failures are compensated, to the surprise of casual viewers.
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First things first, I have no idea about the scoring system in RG, so don‘t have a personal opinion on who "deserved" to win. However, I‘ve been going through the discussions on r/gymnastics on another site and can summarize some of the things said there. The biggest issue people seem to have is that the gold medalist dropped her apparatus in the final rotation and still won overall.
1. She didn‘t have to move far to pick up the apparatus. Apparently, the penalties get higher the more steps you need to take (or if you’re out of bounds - similar to AG here) Since she was already on her knees, she only had to grab it.
2. There are different skillsets that score differently. I have no idea whether this is an accurate comparison but think of spins, jumps, steps in figure skating. They all have different starting values and it‘s the same in RG. Here they‘re called mastery, risk or just elements (not sure about that, probably more complicated). Linoy dropped her apparatus during a mastery, which cost her less points. A risk is basically if you attempt another rotation or spin after you‘ve thrown the apparatus and before you catch it. This is what happened to Yana in 2016 and why her drop was so heavily penalized and lost her the Gold. Since she dropped it while attempting a risk, it didn‘t count at all and she got the deductions on top of that. But that wasn‘t the case with Linoy. For comparison: Yana lost about 1.3 points whereas Linoy‘s mistake only accounted for a deduction of about 0.5 points. Making the figure skating parallel again: it‘s like falling during simple crossovers vs. falling during spins/steps/jumps. In one case you get only the -1 deduction, in the other you get the mandatory -5 GOE as well.
3. There‘s a lot of comments now saying "You don‘t become Champion with a drop of the apparatus!“ (including by Viner) And honestly, I get it, I personally value cleanliness over difficulty too, in any sport. But these comments are just factually incorrect, since Dina Averina actually won the All Around Worlds Gold in 2018 with a drop. So, yeah… make of that what you will.
4. Essentially, what it seems to come down to is that Linoy made one bigger mistake but was cleaner throughout the rest of the competition whereas Dina had several smaller mistakes that might not be obvious to an untrained eye (the German commentator for example noted them every time even though I didn’t catch them) but rack up over time.
Again, this is only a summary of what people with more knowledge of the sport have said and not my personal opinion. (If you were to ask that, I’m more surprised by Arina Averina losing Bronze idk how that happened and it was the only thing that "upset" me as a viewer) The general consensus seems to be, however, that Linoy won fairly. Detailed score sheets would help, though. Why is that not a thing?!
You can read for yourself:
Personally, I‘m a bit baffled by the severe reactions, especially since many probably don’t even have factual knowledge of the sport. Judging by the Wikipedia results page, Ashram’s been a contender for years - she‘s beaten the twins separately on several occasions, it‘s just that she never managed to beat both of them at once until today. So she’s by no means a nobody. And the attacks pouring on the poor girl now are rather over the top as well. Even if this was unfair judging, it‘s not her fault, she‘s just the athlete.
I truly do feel sorry for Dina and Arina here, though, they were the obvious favorites and it must hurt badly to lose. I hope they manage to move on from this, they‘re still legends in the sport.
1. She didn‘t have to move far to pick up the apparatus. Apparently, the penalties get higher the more steps you need to take (or if you’re out of bounds - similar to AG here) Since she was already on her knees, she only had to grab it.
2. There are different skillsets that score differently. I have no idea whether this is an accurate comparison but think of spins, jumps, steps in figure skating. They all have different starting values and it‘s the same in RG. Here they‘re called mastery, risk or just elements (not sure about that, probably more complicated). Linoy dropped her apparatus during a mastery, which cost her less points. A risk is basically if you attempt another rotation or spin after you‘ve thrown the apparatus and before you catch it. This is what happened to Yana in 2016 and why her drop was so heavily penalized and lost her the Gold. Since she dropped it while attempting a risk, it didn‘t count at all and she got the deductions on top of that. But that wasn‘t the case with Linoy. For comparison: Yana lost about 1.3 points whereas Linoy‘s mistake only accounted for a deduction of about 0.5 points. Making the figure skating parallel again: it‘s like falling during simple crossovers vs. falling during spins/steps/jumps. In one case you get only the -1 deduction, in the other you get the mandatory -5 GOE as well.
3. There‘s a lot of comments now saying "You don‘t become Champion with a drop of the apparatus!“ (including by Viner) And honestly, I get it, I personally value cleanliness over difficulty too, in any sport. But these comments are just factually incorrect, since Dina Averina actually won the All Around Worlds Gold in 2018 with a drop. So, yeah… make of that what you will.
4. Essentially, what it seems to come down to is that Linoy made one bigger mistake but was cleaner throughout the rest of the competition whereas Dina had several smaller mistakes that might not be obvious to an untrained eye (the German commentator for example noted them every time even though I didn’t catch them) but rack up over time.
Again, this is only a summary of what people with more knowledge of the sport have said and not my personal opinion. (If you were to ask that, I’m more surprised by Arina Averina losing Bronze idk how that happened and it was the only thing that "upset" me as a viewer) The general consensus seems to be, however, that Linoy won fairly. Detailed score sheets would help, though. Why is that not a thing?!
You can read for yourself:
https://www.another site.com/r/Gymn...a_averina_comments_on_her_loss_my_conscience/
https://www.another site.com/r/Gymn...id_linoy_ashram_get_such_a_high_score_if_she/
Personally, I‘m a bit baffled by the severe reactions, especially since many probably don’t even have factual knowledge of the sport. Judging by the Wikipedia results page, Ashram’s been a contender for years - she‘s beaten the twins separately on several occasions, it‘s just that she never managed to beat both of them at once until today. So she’s by no means a nobody. And the attacks pouring on the poor girl now are rather over the top as well. Even if this was unfair judging, it‘s not her fault, she‘s just the athlete.
I truly do feel sorry for Dina and Arina here, though, they were the obvious favorites and it must hurt badly to lose. I hope they manage to move on from this, they‘re still legends in the sport.
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I dont know smidge about Rhythmic gymnastics but gotta love watching the Russian fed crying about injustice. Kinda like when they cried about the injustice of Anna lutzes being (correctly) called a flutz in cup of china 2019. Its good they know what we feel on a common basis
No... both of the twins beat her. She came in 4th in the all around. And if you add up the results of the individual competitions then Dina was ahead there too.
2021 Rhythmic Gymnastics European Championships - Wikipedia
I have to say, as time goes by Irina Viner's hysterical insta-reaction comes off worse and worse. And now the media is in the phase where it's just quote mining of people who just want their name put out there.
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No... both of the twins beat her. She came in 4th in the all around. And if you add up the results of the individual competitions then Dina was ahead there too.
2021 Rhythmic Gymnastics European Championships - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
I have to say, as time goes by Irina Viner's hysterical insta-reaction comes off worse and worse. And now the media is in the phase where it's just quote mining of people who just want their name put out there.
Yeah, my mistake, I just looked at the results and didn‘t check too closely. Ashram beat Dina Averina in the Clubs final (btw, why are there no event finals in RG at the Olympics?). And it seems like she‘s beaten the twins before separately, it‘s just that today was the first time she beat them both at once. It was definitely a major upset, I don‘t think anyone would try to deny that. What I was trying to say is that Ashram is not a nobody - meaning that, while the twins were absolutely dominant, she managed to beat them on a few occasions. Idk. For me the biggest question is still how Arina lost Bronze. Sure, she had to change the ribbon, which is a huge deduction, but Harnasko also had a drop and several other errors. But again, that‘s coming from someone whose knowledge is all subjective + the few things I picked up from online discussions and wikipedia.
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- Oct 20, 2017
Thanks for the detailed answer. It seemed to me that most outrage comments that I read elsewhere were basically "if you drop apparatus you can't win" which reminded me of the notorious "why skater who fell is higher than skater who didn't" that I see every 4 years when skating in the Olympics comes. Although RG fans are not completely to blame here, the scoring system is super inaccessible. The complete scoring sheets are never published, so no one knows which points were given for what. And the system is changed every 4 years, so it's hard to keep track for fans.
Yeah, my mistake, I just looked at the results and didn‘t check too closely. Ashram beat Dina Averina in the Clubs final (btw, why are there no event finals in RG at the Olympics?). And it seems like she‘s beaten the twins before separately, it‘s just that today was the first time she beat them both at once. It was definitely a major upset, I don‘t think anyone would try to deny that. What I was trying to say is that Ashram is not a nobody - meaning that, while the twins were absolutely dominant, she managed to beat them on a few occasions. Idk. For me the biggest question is still how Arina lost Bronze. Sure, she had to change the ribbon, which is a huge deduction, but Harnasko also had a drop and several other errors. But again, that‘s coming from someone whose knowledge is all subjective + the few things I picked up from online discussions and wikipedia.
Thing is, scoring controversies are almost always going to involve "somebodies" to one another. For scoring to be framed or tilted one direction or another(and not only intentionally by the judges but though say outside PR) it has to come off as reasonable. No point in "conspiring" for something that would look completely ridiculous. So that fact that she has been somewhat competitive(if a bit behind overall) does not discount shenaniganry.
Nor does it discount there being an unorganized shared sentiment("group mind) that having the sport dominated by one country is not healthy. And so, in their minds what they feel is a "tie" is biased towards the non-Russian.
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- Apr 26, 2018
I see your point and I did get a similar feeling (though not related to scoring here) when the twins were standing, crying, waiting for Dina‘s scores and literally all the other competitors huddled together excitedly, almost cheering for Ashram to win. As a viewer, it felt off, especially when compared to the genuine respect and support the athletes showed each other during the women’s Artistic Gymnastics finals.
But honestly, I wasn‘t trying to argue that the results were "fair" or "unfair" because I simply don‘t know enough to make such an assessment. I just summarized what other people with more knowledge thought and how the judging is often not as easy as "drop of the apparatus = automatic loss“. The only thing I noticed was that the frequency of inquiries by all athletes was very high. In artistic gymnastics, you‘d have an inquiry every other performance, here it seemed like everyone was protesting during every rotation. Can anyone with more viewing experience tell me whether that‘s usual for RG competitions?
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- Oct 25, 2014
This was exactly what the COI wanted, a very disputed final. And the result is largely attributed to the fact that this code got completely out of hand. The judges signaled during qualifications that Linoy was a front runner, and to be quite honest, she did amazingly, drop included.
Dina won her golds with mistakes before, several times. And there was outcry, but it didn’t make those results less right, which is exactly what happens now. Ashram is the rightful winner, and Viner should probably take a look at what her federation pushed for in the code. It’s very probable that she will get disappointed again today with the group.
But this is a long time coming this cycle. Both Averinas, Dina especially, have been skirting the lines of good technique, though they competed well in Tokyo. I just don’t think it was good enough.
A big shoutout to Alina Harnasko, who was amazing and deserved her place in the podium.
In the future Russia might have to reconsider how they grow their gymnasts, because Lala Kramarenko, the next one in line, already show signs of not being good enough to win against the rest.
I think this is just the case of being between great generations. The twins just never reached the heights of gymnasts like Kanaeva or Kudryavtseva, especially with the international fan base. They were also run ragged and competed a lot of times under duress without need.
Dina won her golds with mistakes before, several times. And there was outcry, but it didn’t make those results less right, which is exactly what happens now. Ashram is the rightful winner, and Viner should probably take a look at what her federation pushed for in the code. It’s very probable that she will get disappointed again today with the group.
But this is a long time coming this cycle. Both Averinas, Dina especially, have been skirting the lines of good technique, though they competed well in Tokyo. I just don’t think it was good enough.
A big shoutout to Alina Harnasko, who was amazing and deserved her place in the podium.
In the future Russia might have to reconsider how they grow their gymnasts, because Lala Kramarenko, the next one in line, already show signs of not being good enough to win against the rest.
I think this is just the case of being between great generations. The twins just never reached the heights of gymnasts like Kanaeva or Kudryavtseva, especially with the international fan base. They were also run ragged and competed a lot of times under duress without need.
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- Jan 27, 2014
You make it sound like some grand conspiracy when literally just a glance at the results linked in the thread would tell you it was mostly the result of each of them bombing an individual apparatus in one phase.
Arina scored 4.075 lower in the final and 4.050 of that was ribbon, where she had a disaster in finals. Every other apparatus she got a better E-score, but hit a bit less difficulty. Her ribbon error was the worst of these three.
Linoy scored 4.700 higher in the final and 4.050 of *that* was hoop, where she had a disaster in qualifications. (Most of the rest of it was clubs, where she had one of her best routines ever in finals.) Her ribbon drop wasn’t a very costly mistake, especially not compared to the errors from the Averinas’, and she partially made up for it with difficulty.
Dina’s AA score was higher than qualifications and she increased her weakest qualifying scores, ball and ribbon, by about a point each, despite major ball and ribbon errors in the final. Conspiracy?
And Dina miraculously raised her ribbon difficulty alone by a full point higher overnight. Swings in difficulty are common in RG, and sometimes by more. This was not really an exceptional competition in that regard. And anyways, like I mentioned, Linoy's boost came almost entirely from one event.
This FS analogy really doesn't make any sense, except maybe to people who know nothing about RG's scoring system.
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- Jul 20, 2021
What errors are you talking about?
Not only with hoop - her execution scores were noticeably higher as well. IMO Linoy's execution score (especially artistic) shouldn't be that high from the beginning (even in qualification). Her routines are much less artistic than Averinas (and some other gymnasts as well) and look very mechanical. And her feet and toes are not stretched enough. Averinas sisters have that balletic grace quality which makes them different from others and which wasn't conveyed by scores at all.
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- Oct 25, 2014
Can you tell me in which way Linoy is less artistic? Because her routines are well connected with the music, there’s a lot of dynamic changes in them, her routines have fairly interesting ideas (as interesting as the code allows). She is quite expressive too. There are connecting elements in the routines, and she explores her best assets.
Besides body technique comparison, I see basically no difference between Dina and Linoy under the current code. Maybe Dina filling less of the carpet during her routines.
What's happening? I'm worried. I haven't watched any routine yet, but yesterday Russia won the Synchronized Swimming team event, but today they seem to have lost the RG team event. Is this mean coach losing her touch? I'm worried. What's going to happen tomorrow?
I just finished watching the individual all-round final. I have no opinion on who should or shouldn’t have won (although I was absolutely rooting for a twins 1-2), but just a question: why did Arina switch ribbons? (and why was it penalized…. because of the steps she had to take to get it and being out of sync with the music etc., or is there a bigger reason, like switching apparatus itself is a big penalty? She didn’t let her ribbon fall, so that cannot have been a penalty, right?). Her ribbon seemed fine? I’m so confused, lol.
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- May 27, 2021
She tied a knot on the ribbon so she had to replace it or untie the knot. It isn't allowed to perform with a knot.
Ow, did she? I missed that (and so did the commentators, they were just as confused as I was!). Okay, thanks, I will go back and see if I can spot it.
I had never seen something like this happen before (admittedly, I don’t often watch RG, and when I do it’s usually Men’s!). What a shock!
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- Mar 27, 2019
I don't know enough about rg scoring either to determine whether Dina Averina was "robbed" or not, but her comments seemed very unsportmanlike to me, saying that the judges made sure she didn't win, and when she didn't hug Linoy when she approached her etc. I understand losing Olympic gold is incredibly devastating, especially if the score is so close, but for example I don't remember Russian figure skaters acting this way, ever (at least in recent years since I haven't been a fan for that long). I'm sure Medvedeva felt the same way in 2018 like Dina is feeling right now, but she was much more gracious towards Alina.
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