- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
For the competitive skater, medals are everything. For the audience, it is just who pleases you.
Joe
Joe
Is the greatness of a skater measured by medals?
- Thread starter passion
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- Joined
- Mar 28, 2005
In the post-figures era yes it is. That is just reality. The only ones whose greatness transcends medals are people from the figures era like Janet Lynn, John Curry, Dorothy Hamill, Toller Cranston, Robin Cousins, even Midori Ito, etc......but those are all people who are believed to have been held back from more titles and medals by the compulsory figures.
In the post-figures era yes indeed your greatness will be measured by medals. People who dont have enough of them will be forgotten with the passage of time. Like I said on another thread 10 years ago only the most diehard skating fans will even know who Sasha Cohen is since her medal haul is simply not enough to be remembered by the casual fan. I read someone bring up Kurt Browning as some kind of counter-example but he has 4 World titles, and a World silver, so even without an Olympic medal he has a huge medal haul; and even he would be even more highly regarded by the skating public as a whole with an Olympic medal, and even more with an Olympic gold medal. To think otherwise is to kid yourself.
In the post-figures era yes indeed your greatness will be measured by medals. People who dont have enough of them will be forgotten with the passage of time. Like I said on another thread 10 years ago only the most diehard skating fans will even know who Sasha Cohen is since her medal haul is simply not enough to be remembered by the casual fan. I read someone bring up Kurt Browning as some kind of counter-example but he has 4 World titles, and a World silver, so even without an Olympic medal he has a huge medal haul; and even he would be even more highly regarded by the skating public as a whole with an Olympic medal, and even more with an Olympic gold medal. To think otherwise is to kid yourself.
- Joined
- Jun 27, 2003
If Kurt hadn't continued to improve his SKATING (not his jumping his skating - ie moves in field, footwork, etc) I don't think people would talk about him the way they do...
yeah he's a 4 time world champ, and he was the first to hit a quad and it be counted...
but there are other 4 time world champs that we don't talk about... so......... ???
yeah he's a 4 time world champ, and he was the first to hit a quad and it be counted...
but there are other 4 time world champs that we don't talk about... so......... ???
Absolutely false. Anyone who will be interested in either Slutskaya or Kwan will learn of Cohen because she has competed with them and beaten them quite a few times.
If a skating fan is into Kwan, she or he will learn about how Kwan was beaten at her last two worlds by Sasha.
If a skating fan is into Slutskaya, then this person will find out how Cohen came behind Slutskaya in 2005 and ahead of her in 2006.
Sasha may not have ever won Gold, but she's beaten very respected skaters a few times to qualify as an athlete who was important in the early 2000s.
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2005
That is your opinion. If a skating fan learns Cohen beat Kwan at her last 2 Worlds they will likely chalk that up to this being where Kwan was going downhill anyway since she was 3rd and 4th at those Worlds, after being 1st or 2nd at 8 straight Worlds before that, then missed what would have been her final Olymipcs with injuries. Since Sasha didnt win either Worlds it is more likely people will surmise it Kwan's "end of career" decline then Cohen's brilliance to why she placed below her.
They will learn Cohen never beat Kwan at Nationals as well, making it more likely Cohen's finishing over her at Worlds with "non winning" performances will just be chalked up to Kwan's late career regression with injuries.
As for a fan of Slutskaya they will learn she was 2nd and 3rd at her two serious bids for Olympic Gold, just as Kwan was 2nd or 3rd at her two serious bids for Olympic Gold. With the exception of Kwan's first Olympics anyone who studies the careers of Kwan or Slutskaya will learn these two great champions had subpar (for them) outings and put a person who beat them with a "non winning" performance (which Cohen's obviously was in Turin) down to the jinx both women have at the Olympics.
Butyrskaya beat Kwan at the 1999 Worlds, Hughes was the first beneficiary of the Slutskaya and Kwan slipups at the 2002 Olympics, Kostner beat Kwan out of a medal at the 2005 Worlds, Gusmeroli beat out Slutskaya for her only World medal at the 1997 Worlds (the only Worlds from 1996-2002 Irina competed in which she failed to medal). I dont think this will make any of them that remembered.
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But Butyrskaya and Kostner only swept up the wreckage after Kwan's minor meltdowns only once. Sasha did twice at Worlds as well as beating a down-on-her-luck Slutskaya at the Olympics... Cohen capitalized on the crashes of other champions way too often to be compared to Butyrskaya and Kostner. So that's why people will come to know about her.
Butyrskaya is remembered in Europe, as much as it is Sasha in the USA. Butyrskaya skated for nearly 10 years, she won Euros and one Worlds. She is in Europe the same as Sasha in the USA.
I doubt that Sasha's successes at Worlds will have the effect you mention because they were overshadowed by better stories. Anyone who gets interested in Michelle (or just sees 2004 Worlds for some other reason) will be more taken by Shizuka's unexpected win and/or Michelle's handling of the streaker, than they will be taken by Sasha; anyone who learns about 2005 Worlds for any reason will probably not be able to help focusing only on Irina's comeback. I don't think her placement at Torino alone will make her that memorable to the casual fan.
IMO, skating fans always like the "story behind the skaters" -- Irina has one; Michelle has one; Maria B has one (oldest ever World ladies champion, etc.); even Sarah Hughes (come-from-behind) and Tara (youngest ever). But Sasha, IMO, doesn't have much of a story.
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True!! But she had one of the most beautiful SP (Dark Eyes) of skating history, IMO!!!
Time will tell if Sasha is remembered 10 years from now. There are Olympic champions and there are world champions that only the die hard fans know. In the USA I think Sasha will be remembered because of her Olympic silver medal and the circumstances in which she won her medal. Maybe not so much other places but as I said only time knows.
"Greatness" with the meaning people know who you are has to do with story more so then medals. Although medal count can be your story. What I will remember is the skating of those I truely enjoyed.
"Greatness" with the meaning people know who you are has to do with story more so then medals. Although medal count can be your story. What I will remember is the skating of those I truely enjoyed.
Well...I dunno about ALL of that, because I still think S. Hughes and Lipinski ranked among the most bashed skaters on the forums up until a couple years back...
As for who will be remembered, too soon to tell, but here's a preliminary list:
REMEMBERED:
Kwan (her impact goes beyond skating)
Lipinski (the youngest champ- I think her name will be recalled in many future Olympics)
FORGOTTEN (or remembered only in passing):
S. Hughes (believe it or not, I don't think she had staying power at all)
UNCERTAIN
Cohen (I think hardcore skating fans will remember her and make references to her when discussing current/future skaters, but I doubt it will stretch to the general public. Still, it depends on how long she continues to skate.)
As for who will be remembered, too soon to tell, but here's a preliminary list:
REMEMBERED:
Kwan (her impact goes beyond skating)
Lipinski (the youngest champ- I think her name will be recalled in many future Olympics)
FORGOTTEN (or remembered only in passing):
S. Hughes (believe it or not, I don't think she had staying power at all)
UNCERTAIN
Cohen (I think hardcore skating fans will remember her and make references to her when discussing current/future skaters, but I doubt it will stretch to the general public. Still, it depends on how long she continues to skate.)
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- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
I agree with Gio (also, don't forget Hernando's Hideaway -- Ole!) In the era of You Tube and video on demand, Sasha's performances (even in cheesefests) may be remembered more than her medal count.
Similarly Michelle's exhibitions (Fields of Gold) may be just as popular as her medal-winning performances.
In the past, "being remembered" often meant little more than having your name in a dusty almanac, if anyone is interested enough to look it up. Like we "remember" Herma Szabo, five time World Champion and Olympic gold medalist.
Similarly Michelle's exhibitions (Fields of Gold) may be just as popular as her medal-winning performances.
In the past, "being remembered" often meant little more than having your name in a dusty almanac, if anyone is interested enough to look it up. Like we "remember" Herma Szabo, five time World Champion and Olympic gold medalist.
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- Joined
- Mar 28, 2005
Hmmm, I agree. I might put Lipinski in the "uncertain" group with Sasha but the other 3 I have no doubt that is where they fit at this moment.
You might be right! At work everyone was saying they couldn't believe the girl that fell twice won Silver. So she might be remembered mostly for that? I dunno.
- Joined
- Dec 16, 2006
I change my answer--it might depend on the era and geographic era. Certainly Europeans won't remember Kwan as likely as they are to remember Witt.
The sad thing is, many skaters are only remembered after their title, and as such, some moves have been attributed to these skaters. Michkoutienok/Dmitriev are remembered as a team who won gold and silver and supposedly romanticized pairs skating, when according to Moskvina herself, their trademark move, the Natalia spin, was a move she first took from a Canadian pair:
Similarly, people tend to attribute Kwan and Cohen for bringing about a popularization of high-free-leg spirals, when the culprit for bringing about that change was...none other than Nicole Bobek. Kwan wasn't the first to do a Charlotte--according to Joe, a woman named Beluga (sp) did. Alexei Yagudin isn't the king of footwork the way the youngin's at my rink talk about him--he is only duke behind Scott Hamilton, Paul Wylie, and of course, Kurt Browning.
Ok sorry to get off track--I guess my point is, in a way we're all right. We, the die hards who will watch Johnny's crossovers and never ever get tired over some kid who attempts a triple axel, will remember those who didn't win as many medals as those who won the whole apple cart. The rest of the world, however, will remember those whose names are in the books, and will, perhaps, associate the sports' moves with those people (in some cases, even signature programs for a skater who is lesser known will not be called their signature program, because another, more successful skater had it-- ie, CS and TD's respective interpretations of Bolero).
The sad thing is, many skaters are only remembered after their title, and as such, some moves have been attributed to these skaters. Michkoutienok/Dmitriev are remembered as a team who won gold and silver and supposedly romanticized pairs skating, when according to Moskvina herself, their trademark move, the Natalia spin, was a move she first took from a Canadian pair:
Similarly, people tend to attribute Kwan and Cohen for bringing about a popularization of high-free-leg spirals, when the culprit for bringing about that change was...none other than Nicole Bobek. Kwan wasn't the first to do a Charlotte--according to Joe, a woman named Beluga (sp) did. Alexei Yagudin isn't the king of footwork the way the youngin's at my rink talk about him--he is only duke behind Scott Hamilton, Paul Wylie, and of course, Kurt Browning.
Ok sorry to get off track--I guess my point is, in a way we're all right. We, the die hards who will watch Johnny's crossovers and never ever get tired over some kid who attempts a triple axel, will remember those who didn't win as many medals as those who won the whole apple cart. The rest of the world, however, will remember those whose names are in the books, and will, perhaps, associate the sports' moves with those people (in some cases, even signature programs for a skater who is lesser known will not be called their signature program, because another, more successful skater had it-- ie, CS and TD's respective interpretations of Bolero).
I really like your comment.
What was it that made her great? (She was before my time).
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- Joined
- Dec 16, 2006
It's hard for most people to explain, so just watch...
http://youtube.com/watch?v=lUQ3Aam5zvw
Many skaters attribute Janet for freeing their bodies. The skaters before her (Peggy Fleming, Gabriele Seyfert, Carol Heiss-Jenkins, Sonja Henie) all skated like women, but they didn't have the freedom of movement that Janet did. They were inhibited--she basically put the free in free skating. Of course, now with all the requirements, it has gone back to being the 'long' program.
She seems to use her whole body and uses her arms to express herself.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
Um...it's called a Charlotte, not a Michelle or a Belita, LOL.
The first person to do it was Charlotte Oelschlagel, a popular show skater of the early 1900s.
Belita was a show skater and movie star of the 1940s (she competed in the 1936 Olympics at age 12 (!) and turned pro shortly after)
I think Michelle is credited with being the first lady to include the move in a competitive program. Anyway, she and Sasha repopularized the move in the modern era.
As for the spiral, I think Michelle will be remembered for innumerable outstanding performances which featured her spectacular change of edge spiral as a highlight move.
Likewise, Michelle didn't invent the double Axel. But she had a really, really good one, LOL. You might even say, she was the whole package.
, LOL. You might even say, she was the whole package.
You don't say, Mathman... Michelle being "the whole package" sounds like a a radical new idea to my poor little ears ;-)
Actually, if Michelle started out competing under COP, she would have benefited from it to become even more of a "whole package." She would have really worked on more flexible spins and spirals. (I don't think her body wasn't capable of learning them when she was like 12 years old.)
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