Ice Dance this year: is V&M really better than France's D&S???

[cassieandcheetah]

I am liking Kimmie's "Passion" number.

I'm kind of disappointed by the trend in ice dance, because I feel ice dance has changed much since the new system came into being, and I feel like there's a tendency for the older teams to be dismissed in favor of the young ones. I was shocked to find that someone's already talking about the judges trying to push the kerrs into retirement. There's also the curiously negative reception of Gregory and Pechukov this year...And now everyone's saying V and M are the best thing out there....I mean, V and M are very very good, and they deserve most of the praise they're getting, but I don't know, I really do'nt think their program is as good as Delobel and schonfelder's, for instance. I have to give it that V and M's lifts are quite amazing, and they skate fast, but I don't know...I love how Olivier and Isabel express every beat of the music, whereas V and M seem to have incorporated many of the same/similar dance movies that I saw in their earlier free dances...Is that just me that feels this way? I just feel like their moves don't blend as naturally with the music (I'm only basing this on this year' sFD btw), and their style is so similar to B and A somtimes the similarity bothers me a bit too much (maybe Igor should try and be more creative?)...I don't know. If I said "cookie-cutter' feel, would people try and kill me here? I didn't say that yet, but I almost did! I guess in the past when it came to ice dance, I tended to prefer the european teams more than the Russians and the North Americans because there was a certain freshness and artistic freedom to their programs that I couldn't quite perceive in the other teams.... I just wish judges gave more credit to the older teams..>It's sad to think that under the current system such wonderful teams like Bourne/Kraatz and Anissina and Peizirat would be so terribly underscored...I don't know...

This is D and S's new FD this year.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVeztVWtfOE&feature=related

and V and M's FD
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gm4lJOL_DFE

does anyone agree with me on this?

 

[Big Deal]

No, I don't agree with you. Sorry.

 

[Hsuhs]

Ice Dance this year: is V&M really better than France's D&S???

Yes.

 

[Antilles]

I think they both have a lot of good points, and I like both FDs this year. I agree that V&Ms FD this season has some similarities to last season, but not enough to alarm me.

The one thing I'd like to see Del&Shoe improve is their connection to each other on the ice. They don't have to act all lovey-dovey, but it would be nice if they'd make some eye contact. I still think they're a great team, and I don't think anyone should be trying push them into retirement.

I don't think that V&M look like B&A. I think just the opposite. I think V&M have had much better choreography the past two seasons. It's B&A that are getting the short-end of the stick, IMO.

 

[cassieandcheetah]

No, I don't agree with you. Sorry.

well, maybe I should change the title of this thread or something. My point wasn't really to say one's better than the other. If anything, I'm more a V and M fan than a D and S fan. But what I was trying to get across here was that it bothers me how the younger team gets all the attention and praise because they're young and fresh and the older team as a result seems to be more criticized and ignored. If anything, this isn't just true of D and S, but also of B/A as well....I would appreciate if you could read the rest of the thread and acknowledge the multiple issues I presented here, not just that one's better than the other, etc....After all, I poured my heart out here and was encouraging a discussion, not just a curt "yes." I won't respect you any more for that. The title of the thread was just a way to ask all of you, is it really all that simple and obvious?, as everyone seems now to think that V & M is better than all.

 

[Tonichelle]

There's also the curiously negative reception of Gregory and Pechukov this year...

They skated the CD and the OD one time this season... kinda hard to really tell what's going on with the judges in that...

I think the CoP works well for ice dance... the dancers wouldn't have a prayer of moving up till the Vets retired...

 

[attyfan]

... . But what I was trying to get across here was that it bothers me how the younger team gets all the attention and praise because they're young and fresh and the older team as a result seems to be more criticized and ignored. If anything, this isn't just true of D and S, but also of B/A as well.....

I'm not knowledgeable enough to address all the issues you raised, but as to this one -- ice dance is no different from any other discipline It is always the younger, fresher skater with the potential of being "the next great one" that gets all the positive press -- until they are around for a few years, and then the press that once idolized them begins to tear them down.

It is something often seen in the ladies event. In Japan, for example, Fumie was a big deal until Miki Ando came along; then Miki-mania got dumped for Mao-mania -- and in the US, it wasn't long before Michelle went from being the promising young one to the "old lady" who couldn't keep up with the young jumpers.

This is a defect in the skating coverage; it has nothing to do with whether the younger skater(s) are actually better.

 

[cassieandcheetah]

Why should ice dance be any different than any other discipline? It is always the younger, fresher skater with the potential of being "the next great one" that gets all the positive press -- until they are around for a few years, and then the press that once idolized them begins to tear them down.

Well, it's different with ice dance because you don't have to jump and it's really the downgrading of jumps with age that brings older skaters down. You don't have that in ice dance. Besides, ice dance is so subjective that it's so easy for one team to be everyone's favorite while others fall precipitously down the latter. so I'm just encouraging people to stay grounded.

 

[Mathman]

I think Tonichelle makes a good point. In the olden days it was the opposite. The old timers would stick around as long as they wanted, and no one else could move up until they decided to retire.

In fact, when the CoP first came out, that was what the whole buzz was about. For the first time, the younger teams had a chance to move up on their own merits, rather than having to wait until everyone ahead of them called it quits.

Belbin and Agosto were one of the first young teams to profit from the supposed new deal.

I love Delobel and Schoenfelder, however. I think they are quite a unique team.

 

[skatingfan04]

I think that this 1question will be answered once and for all this week at NHK. May the best team win!

 

[Tonichelle]

I think the CoP JUDGING wise is a good theory... yes everyone's following everyone else working with what they know will give them the most points and many are afraid to think outside the box... but I think as time marches on and the system is tweaked it'll still work as well if not better than the 6.0 (I think rewarding the skating and not the skater or experience of said skater is a GREAT part of the juding)

but until you have independant judges you won't have a perfect system no matter what you do.

 

[all that]

well, maybe I should change the title of this thread or something. My point wasn't really to say one's better than the other. If anything, I'm more a V and M fan than a D and S fan. But what I was trying to get across here was that it bothers me how the younger team gets all the attention and praise because they're young and fresh and the older team as a result seems to be more criticized and ignored. If anything, this isn't just true of D and S, but also of B/A as well....I would appreciate if you could read the rest of the thread and acknowledge the multiple issues I presented here, not just that one's better than the other, etc....After all, I poured my heart out here and was encouraging a discussion, not just a curt "yes." I won't respect you any more for that. The title of the thread was just a way to ask all of you, is it really all that simple and obvious?, as everyone seems now to think that V & M is better than all.

D/S and B/A are being criticized and ignored in favor of V/M not because they are older -- it's that V/M are better skaters than D/S and B/A. You don't see people saying that D/W, C/J, C/L, B/S, etc., are better than D/S and B/A -- and that's because they aren't. V/M are really the only "young" team out there that is getting fantastic praise, and that's because they deserve it.

 

[Big Deal]

I couldn't be more agree with you !

 

[cassieandcheetah]

I couldn't be more agree with you !

Gosh, maybe I shouldn't have written so much because people are totally missing the point here.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is, after watching their performances over the years, D and S has got a certain maturity and subtley to their skating that V and M doesn't yet have for their relative lack of experience....If people don't see that in the videos I attached, then it's okay, but sometimes I feel like V and M are just a bit overrated.....I mean I totally see that their skating is wonderful, but their skating is still a bit too youthful. I think even though it was a bit unfair at times, there is a reason why ice dancing became notorious for favoring the veterans for so many years....because there develops a certain grace, fluidity, and maturity in older skaters that could only have come with time.....I just don't see that in V and M yet, amazing as they are. I'm telling you I'm a V and M fan too!

 

[ManyCairns]

I agree completely with the original post, although I have to say I am basing that on LAST year's programs by V/M, as I haven't seen this year's yet.

So, when I see this year's, I may find they have improved on just the aspects you were noting -- a hard-to-describe lack of maturity and depth and presence -- but still, they leave me breathless and I love to watch them. Tho, in addition to the subjective "lack of maturity" I am suggesting they have, I would add that their programs (again, I'm basing it on previous years, but have to wonder if it's still not true) for me tend to reach one emotional level and kind of stay there the whole time. That is, they don't really build to a climax and then a resolution of tension -- just stay at one emotional level.

But still they are wonderful to watch and seem to easily have the potential to be among the greatest.

BTW, I felt the same about Asada and Kim last year, after all the buzz they'd received, when I finally got to see their programs late in the season -- whereas I could see what people were excited about, there was a lack of something (maturity, etc., just like mentioned for V/M) that for me meant they were not quite gelled yet as skaters and had me just a little bit :scratch: at claims that one or the other of these young ladies were absolutely the best in the world and most certainly would have won the OGM had they been old enough to compete, etc. etc.

Again, I do see that V/M are an incredibly outstanding team, and I love to watch them -- as a fan this is an incredibly rich time for skating!

 

[RDiva]

No they are definately not!!! D/S has unmatched skating skills, the deepest edges...speed everything...I am sorry Canadian fans but V/M has still what to learn from D/S..I hope the judges don't put them ahead of D/S just to prepare them for the olympic medal

 

[SailorGalaxia518]

No they are definately not!!! D/S has unmatched skating skills, the deepest edges...speed everything...I am sorry Canadian fans but V/M has still what to learn from D/S..I hope the judges don't put them ahead of D/S just to prepare them for the olympic medal

If they have all that stuff, how come they have yet to medal at worlds?

 

[cassieandcheetah]

If they have all that stuff, how come they have yet to medal at worlds?

Did you know that Olivier and Isabel's free program at Turin Olympics was ranked 2nd, only behind Navka and Kostomarov ?????? and that they were the European Champions in 2007?

 

[SailorGalaxia518]

Did you know that Olivier and Isabel's free program at Turin Olympics was ranked 2nd, only behind Navka and Kostomarov ?????? and that they were the European Champions in 2007?

Yeah and that was done by outrageous judging that should have had Denkova and Staviski winning the 2007 Europeans. Delobel and Schoenfelder may ne on top technically but not artistically and that is what is holding them back. They just don't seem to have that connection within their dances

 

[cassieandcheetah]

Yeah and that was done by outrageous judging that should have had Denkova and Staviski winning the 2007 Europeans. Delobel and Schoenfelder may ne on top technically but not artistically and that is what is holding them back. They just don't seem to have that connection within their dances

if I remember Denkova and Staviski were third for all phases of the competition...I think they just weren't up to par that day. I remember them saying in interviews that they would work hard to correct their mistakes at worlds, which they must have because they won it. But...it's funny you say D and S are mere technicians becuase that's the opposite of what I was trying to show here....well you should take a look at this year's FD from them. It's pretty cool. And whta was wrong with last year's too? They were totally in character? Is it any less artistic because they were portraying two american robbers in black suits?